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Starleague Discussion (2/03/07)

Forum Index > BW General
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Live2Win *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6657 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-02-03 01:42:50
February 02 2007 23:51 GMT
#1
Okay let the discussions begin!!! Lots of hot games this week, let's dive right in.

Wednesday's OSL

Much vs GoRush on Longinus 2
+ Show Spoiler +
Really, what happened to the ZvP king? The strategy GoRush used, though effective in theory, didn't seem like he executed it correctly. It almost seemed like a half-hearted attack. If you want to go 3 hatch mass hydra/ling, then MASS HYDRA LING!!

Perhaps I'm not giving GoRush enough credit... perhaps Much just defended well. But somehow, whenever SiLvEr or Savior decides to do something like this, they seem to have a LOT more units at the same timed attack.

Of course Much's decision to go ranged goons instead of waiting for zealot speed + templars was smart. It was highly effective, and perfect to defend with at that timing. I dunno what's going down with GoRush, but Much played very nicely, both games. It's very unfortunate that he has to meet Savior next round.


Savior vs Midas on Neo Arkanoid
+ Show Spoiler +
I was sorta disappointed this game. Being as the most Zerg favored map for this season, I thought Neo Arkanoid was a sure win for Savior. But instead of opening with the usual builds, he decides to go 3 hatch hydra...

Now against any other build this may have been effective. Maybe Midas was just lucky in his selection of build... though to me it kinda seemed obvious.

Aside from the build order mis-calculation, Savior never fails to show brilliance. I honestly thought the game was over when the first batch of hydras met those marines. But Savior successfully bought time, using buildings and narrow roads to his advantage for a perfect flank, killing Midas's first attack.

But still, his bo was too far behind. There was really no chance after that dropship killed about 10 drones on an already poor-zerg economy. In the end, it all came down to this: Savior tried something different, Midas chosed the perfect counter and played smart, essentially rolling over Savior without being in danger once.


YellOw[ArnC] vs Oov on Hitch Hiker
+ Show Spoiler +
HA!!! In your face Oov! I knew YarnC had good ZvT, but this game was pretty damn amazing. I never really considered Hitch Hiker so imbalanced as most people were making it out to be, despited statistics stating otherwise, I still held on to hope, and YarnC didn't fail me.

YarnC really likes to mess around with Mutalisks against Oov doesn't he? Every time they played Mutas play a big role. His muta control in this game was flawless, and his follow up was excellent too.

Oov had a very nice counter ready, and for a minute I thought YarnC would lose, but he hung in there, using defilers and cliffed lurkers to their best abilities. I'm really starting to like this guy, as long as he starts to prove that his ZvT isn't the only mu he knows how to be good at.


July vs Casy at Longinus 2
+ Show Spoiler +
Interesting opening indeed. July opens with a 9 pool fast lair build, and goes straight to mutalisks. He even thought 2 steps ahead, hoping Casy would think he was faking it, when actually he was faking faking it... (wait, what?) Anyways! Some very nice mutalisk harrass (though not as good as YarnC's earlier one) and a brilliant follow up with mass drop.

July simply played very smart each step, adapting to the situation and being careful not to screw up. It seemed like the old god of war is back.


Thursday's MSL

Hwasin vs Light
+ Show Spoiler +
Light has always shown impressive skill. His own teammates give him very high praise, and July even guessed he would win OSL. But there was 1 thing he just couldn't do... and that was win TvTs.

The first game on Longinus 2 was very nicely played. He got the bo advantage, and used it to his full advantage. Every step of the way he was ahead of Hwasin, and couldn't have played it better (though the lack of attacks was kinda boring).

The second game on Blitz was interesting. I notice Light likes to act like Sea sometimes, and decides to try an offensive rax build... which fails. Hwasin defended against the rush very nicely, with almost no damage. Hwasin's decision to go 5 port wraiths was really interesting aswell... very rare to see.

The nice little Wraith scurmishes here and there was interesting to watch, and Hwasin's decision to switch techs once valks were out was right on target. Hwasin simply out-played Light this game, very simple.

Game 3 on RT was highly disappointing. I honestly don't know what Light was thinking. He tries an offensive rax rush again, with the closest possible positions, and successfully blocks his ramp, which was a good start. But his reaction to Hwasin's factory lift was horrible.

He even got very lucky when the first vulture went the wrong way, since Hwasin didn't know where Light was, and had enough time to land his rax next to his supply, blocking the way in... but for some dumbass reason he doesn't, the vulture turn around and drives past the opened gate, and causes havoc, which pretty much wins him the game.

Very poor play by Light, and brilliant by Hwasin. The factory lift against the bunker was genius, and his follow up on wraiths was the perfect choice too. Light, you're one of the few terrans I like, but you really gotta step it up on your TvT.


Ra vs Justin (aka Bifrost, Casy[Name], TheMarine[Name], Casy[ArnC]... omg plz stop changing names)
+ Show Spoiler +
Oh boy. Ever sicne his game against Savior last week, Justin had really disappointed me. I really wanted Ra to stomp past this guy, and tell him "kid, you ain't got what it takes to play with the big boys, yet".

The game on Desert Fox was very Ra-like. Offensive 4 gate proxies with reaver drop... a generally all-in rush. It was genius, but Justin got lucky with his barracks scouting it. I honestly thought the game was over when Justin saw the gates when they were warping, but Ra somehow still was able to break through.

Once again I was wondering "how could you not block that even after knowing it was coming?". And it was just me, the commentators were saying the same thing. Eventually Justin was able to block it, and the coutner wraiths to kill Ra's probes was smart, as was the preparation for the DT tech. Justin did good to block the rush, but he still could have done better imo.

The comes Longinus 2. Ra, being the Ra, decides to go a little different and try a tripple nexus. Justin decides to play the same game and gets his min-only before moving out, letting ra take his own min only as well. The game moves into a massive macro war, and looking at the number of units, I thought Justin would win.

And the first major battle was just that. Ra played nicely to try and kill the push, but Justin did well also, and successfully pushed in, except he coudln't do anything about those carriers, wich in the end won him the game.

This game was simply a typical TvP macro war game, followed by carriers which eventually win a game that could have been loss. I was releaved that he went carriers instead of arbs, I didn't think they would be ready in time (also since he didn't go templar tech yet).

Last game on Blitz. Wow... what Justin had in mind I really don't know. His answer to the gas rush was somewhat... poor. Instead of some kind of mnm rush or fast expo, he decies to 2 fac... but with a gas rush, that would be kinda hard, no? Ra, on the other hand goes dbl nexus, and had plenty of time for his economy to kick in.

And the result was highly predictable. Ra does nicely to prevent any sort of harrassment, kills the poorly attempt push, counters right away with goon/obs and kills the defence. Justin's last attempt of a tank drop was cute, but laughable. He simply got mowed over by Ra... and really, it wasn't because Ra played amazing, Justin just... I dunno, wasn't very impressive at all.


Friday's OSL

GGPlay vs braQ (aka FirebatHero) on HitchHiker
+ Show Spoiler +
braQ was never an impressive person for me... I don't know why, I just never liked him that much (didn't hate him either though)... so naturally, I went with GGPlay. The map was hitch hiker, which seemed to be T balanced, except for that fact that the progamers don't think so, and the last two games on here Zerg's won.

braQ's build was brilliant in this game. Using the 2-way to his advantage, he builds an early rax and lifts it over, followed by a 3 rax mnm and a dropship. Really it was difficult what strategy he was going to go. First you think rush, then you think fast tanks, then you think fast vults to harrass, then fast wraiths... but in the end it was a fast drop.

GGPlay's reaction to the rush wasn't that great either. Of course braQ's wraith killing the stray overlord that would have noticed the drop much earlier was very nice by braQ, but GGPlay's ling micro against the rush was pretty poor as well. In general, braQ's strategy was very nice, confusing his opponent till the very end.


NaDa vs Up.MagiC on Neo Arkanoid
+ Show Spoiler +
This was one of the most fun TvT's I've seen in a while. I usually hate TvTs, especially on Arkanoid... becuase they usually last for about 30 minutes. UpMagiC's tripple command build was better than NaDa, and his decision to go straight to BC's/Tanks seemed to be the perfect choice. He didn't execute it too early either, giving him enough time to get plenty of tanks for any drops, and gradually gathering BCs for the kill. It seemed like the perfect strategy.

But NaDa's counter was just amazing. When UpMagiC started to move out with tanks/BCs, and NaDa only had tanks/gols, it seemed very much that NaDa would eventually lose once yamato starts flying around. NaDa's decision to move in before the BC's really start piling up was perfect. His timing, macro, and decision making was all right on target.

Though it seemed Up's unit mix was the better choice, NaDa's constant macro, and offensive attacks was really something to see (that second attck with mass gols + dropship gols was jaw-dropping).

The game was truly a rare game to watch, and NaDa did very very well against an unorthodox strat that seemed to be highly effective. It was the genius terran once again.


Savior vs Midas on Hitch Hiker
+ Show Spoiler +
This was the most anticipated game by far. There were much slander for Midas's pick on Savior again... but whatever, what's done was done. Whenever these two play, it's always fun to watch. The last time they played on this match, it was very close, coming down to a very close ling/defiler vs mnm micro game.

It was odd to see Midas not pull a 8 rax or a dbl expo for once. He actually went a normal 2 rax build... His decision to try a 2 rax mmf rush was very bold, and though 3 sunkens with a 4 morphing seemed like a foolish try, his attack, for a second there, seemed like it as going to break it. Savior's reaction with drones, and preventing them from being killed by firebats was nice as well, and did nice to minimize the damage as much as possible.

Ever since that, it was Savior's time to attack. Some very nice mutalisk harrass, and an early third game followed by a quick hive... to me, it was a highly surprising decision. Midas didn't just sit to take the hits either, he breaks through the north buildings, and tries a little counter of his own, and knowing the guards coming, gets 2 port wraiths.

But Savior's decision to mix in a couple of devourers was the perfect counter. With ovies, devours, and scourge, he didn't have much probably for the anti-air, and guard/cracks was more than enough to handle Midas's rines. Midas's rine micro couldn't have been better, but Savior probably would have still. Perhaps if he continued with his attack and tried to empty his base instead would have been more effect. But whatever, what's done is done. Midas is out, and Savior makes it in.


July vs Casy on RT
+ Show Spoiler +
GENIUS!!! SIMPLY GENIUS!
Casy shows a stroke of brilliance with his fake-dble expo move, easily fooling July for a few seconds, which was just enough time for his rush to break through the feeble defence of July's lings+sunken. I'm sure July was kicking himself after that, but Casy's strategy was just so well played, I'm sure every zerg gamer would fall to it the first time.


Discuss!
SAY YES TO STIM KIDS!!! XD
QuietIdiot
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
7004 Posts
February 03 2007 00:27 GMT
#2
+ Show Spoiler +
I am a heartbroken man in everyway.
Ugh, this may up being a savior double win.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
February 03 2007 01:25 GMT
#3
On February 03 2007 09:27 QuietIdiot wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I am a heartbroken man in everyway.
Ugh, this may up being a savior double win.


I feel you~
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
February 03 2007 01:27 GMT
#4
Wednesday OSL:

Much vs GoRush

I don't think GoRush played poorly in anyway in particular, Because GoRush opted for a quick hydra build with both upgrades, he was short on the drones. However, with the upgrades, even few hydras are extremely effective against slow zealots and stationary cannons. Much's switch to ranged goons really saved him the game since goons have an advantage against hydras when both counts are low.

After the initial rush, Much basically had the game, and there was nothing GoRush could have done to stop the inevitable attack of the stronger protoss force.

Savior vs Midas:

I don't remember what really happened, it was pretty boring imo. Midas just turtled until he had a horde of tanks, and just raped Savior.

Yellow vs Oov:

This was probably my favourite game of the set. Yellow won the game because of his exceptional muta controls. I couldn't even count how many SCVs/Turrets/Marines/Medics were killed by those mutas, amazing micro.

July vs Casy:

July harassed like mad with 3 mutas. I was so boggled why Casy couldn't just build a few more turrets instead of running his marines back and forth. Rather than July played well, I think Casy played extremely poorly. He did not know what July was planning inside his base. The lack of scouting and judgment costed him the game.

Friday OSL:

FBH vs GGPlay

Missed the game, and don't want to watch it.

Up vs Nada:

I thought it was a complete one-sided rape. The four-port BC strategy was bold and entertaining at first. However, Nada's regular build was simply superior. Also, I don't think Up used the BC's mobility to his advantaged. He just ctrl+A'd them instead of flying them around killing exps or protect exps.

Savior vs Midas:

It was similar to Yellow vs Oov, but not exactly. Midas's initial push was less than anti-climaxing. Throwing a group of MMF against four sunkens is not the smartest thing to do. After losing his initial platoon, Midas defended extremely well however. There was not much Savior's mutas could have done. However, they still kept Midas at bay. Although Midas was expecting Guardians, either by sheer luck or Gosu-sense, Savior attacked just as Midas left his main. It was so well timed, although I'm not sure it would have made a difference on the final outcome of the game.

Casy vs July:

July saw the MMF group and refused to add more than one sunken. I don't know what he was thinking... He deserved the loss.

When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
polarwolf
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
924 Posts
February 03 2007 01:34 GMT
#5
very nice report. But in Ra vs Justin you are mentioning Light all the time ?
Live2Win *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6657 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-02-03 01:43:24
February 03 2007 01:41 GMT
#6
On February 03 2007 10:34 polarwolf wrote:
very nice report. But in Ra vs Justin you are mentioning Light all the time ?

wahaha I knew I would do that.

Fixed
SAY YES TO STIM KIDS!!! XD
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
February 03 2007 01:57 GMT
#7
Wednesday:

Much vs Gorush.
Much can practise with sAviOr, so it's no surprise that his PvZ is getting very strong. GoRush has Kingdom and Rainbow to practise his ZvP with. =.= both sub 50% even when they were at top.

Gorush's early ZvP has never been that strong. His fantastic wins when he was walking-mercury were all built on a solid early/middle game into a fantastic late game. Recently his all-in crap doesn't work. It might have been because game 1 he was trying for a safe build into hive play, which got dismantled, so game 2 he went for a more aggressive early build. w/e didn't work. I was sad, I like Gorush.

sAviOr vs Midas

Midas played a very standard game I think. fast double cc into four raxes and two facs, I think? I'm surprised sAviOr never met that in practise. His hydralisk control was very strong, but Midas simply played better.

July vs Casy

Shows how imba Longinus II is. Has a Zerg ever won on this map with a straight up build? sAviOr has cheesed every time I think, and July had to do this crazy 1 hatch muta stuff.

Thursday:

rA vs Justin.
I loved how Justin had 1 guy cheering for him and the rest of the audience cheered for rA. After the gg in game 1, it was completely silent except for commentator. rA has so many fans O_Oi since he is holy fighter who will destroy the evil matler ~_~ and the rA masks were fun. The games weren't as awesome as they could be. rA's build in game 3 was artsy though. manner gas into 14 nexus? balls of steel.

Friday:

NaDa vs Up
NaDa simply outplays Up. I think Up made the right decision to go BC, since even with his bo advantage I don't think he could win a macro war against NaDa. However, NaDa's reaction was very good and he won with style and finesse. [Maybe not finesse. But style yes.]

sAviOr vs Midas:
Don't double stim marines. T-T

Casy vs July:
I was laughing so much. Awesome build from casy. July looked really pissed, and he didn't gg until he killed all of casy's attacking units XD
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
Live2Win *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6657 Posts
February 03 2007 03:33 GMT
#8
I actually think Midas stimmed 3 times. Watchin that scene over and over agian, I swear I hear a "tssah~~~(runs in) tss,tssah~~~".

In Casy vs July, I actually had to look away when he suicided all of his drones into 2 firebats...
SAY YES TO STIM KIDS!!! XD
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
February 03 2007 04:55 GMT
#9
Did it show a marine's health at the time? He could've been stimming two separate groups. It's unlikely, but he did nearly break through sAviOr's defenses, which I wouldn't expect if all his marines were at 20hp.

Already deleted the VOD though =/
Administrator
red.venom
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4651 Posts
February 03 2007 05:33 GMT
#10
Much vs GoRush on Longinus 2

Its actually really hard to win with mass hydra on maps like this one imo. Much cut probes and was sort of preparing something all-in himself. I think no matter what gorush would have done he was doing that goon/zeal mass.

Ra vs Justin BO3

Haaaaaaaa even the first game almost went Ra's way despite Justin completely finding the proxy structures. I really believe Ra will beat Bisu and if he faces Hwasin in the final(A definite possibility given the maps Savior will be playing him on) I think Ra will take this MSL because his PvT is just looking too beastly. Game 2 he didnt even use his min only for like 4 minutes!!

Savior vs Midas on Hitchiker:

I know a lot of people want Savior to lose and say his play is uninteresting. But I find it the complete opposite. Savior often goes unchallenged in the early stages of the game, which is where most of the difficulty for zerg is(Dealing with the myriad of options Terran have for the first 10 minutes)... But Midas tried to rush down his sunken line after some early harass and really Savior on a very similar amount of econ to Midas managed to never lose his momentum or initiative despite playing a VERY honest start. Hope he wins this OSL honestly. If not him then Much. ;]
Broom
Live2Win *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6657 Posts
February 03 2007 06:47 GMT
#11
Yea I agree about Ra. If Savior wins against Hwasin then he'll probably win another MSL. If he loses, then probably Ra will take it. Either way I'm happy :D
SAY YES TO STIM KIDS!!! XD
uberMatt
Profile Joined May 2004
Canada659 Posts
February 03 2007 07:21 GMT
#12
when midas attacked early game with that MMF force when he double stimmed, savior didn't even make one ling in response lol |]
boghat
Profile Joined January 2007
United States2109 Posts
February 03 2007 07:34 GMT
#13
Nice analysis Live2Win, I agree with you mostly about everything..
siro)
Profile Joined January 2006
Australia848 Posts
February 03 2007 12:09 GMT
#14
Midas should have just ran past sunks into main.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
February 03 2007 18:22 GMT
#15
then all of his marines wouldve died

Casy vs July

I think Casy cut some scvs with that build, nonetheless good strat. July shouldve waited a little bit to flank better but oh well, 1 sunken couldn't hold it no matter what.

Savior vs Midas

Forget the double stim, 4 sunkens > 2 medics, I'm sure even fastest mappers know the math. Midas chokes so much and so badly during the biggest games. He deserves to die for fucking that up. Just making savior get 4 sunkens with 2 hatch muta is enough compensation for the early academy I think.
0z
Profile Joined August 2006
Luxembourg877 Posts
February 03 2007 18:42 GMT
#16
savior vs midas
I watched the game again on youtube, and i;m not at all convinced that midas double stimmed, because you can see when the second Aaagh, yeah occurs, one new backup firebat comes and starts running, so he was probably stimmed separately.
I would also like to add that savior made his own life hard by sacrificing ~5 dogs(all that he had) to kill 1 marine earlier on.
PoP
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
France15446 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-02-03 20:09:40
February 03 2007 20:07 GMT
#17
Gorush vs Much:

Agreed with what ManaBlue said in the news. Gorush sucks at all-in builds yet keeps using them in 95% of his ZvP... The most painful one was probably against Bisu in Proleague (on Sin Peaks), when at the end it was Bisu's 4 bases/pop 200 vs Gorush's 2 bases hydras/lings. He's never even close to win when he plays that way. Even if that might be more entertaining than the usual macro/whore style, I seriously miss Gorush's old ZvP sense. He used to vary the builds way more and go mutas sometimes too, which made him far less predictable. And most importantly he didn't pull do-or-die timing strats in every single game. What a waste.

Much on the other hand played really really solid. In both games his timing was amazingly good (it's clearly his greatest strength in both PvT and PvZ). The guy's slowly becoming one of my favourites P.

--

Yellow[Arnc] vs Oov.

Oov got 100% outplayed, period. Yellow[Arnc]'s ZvT looks as scary as Savior's when he's playing that way. Oov on the other hand is sloppy, very sloppy, and seems kinda slow too in terms of reactions and everything. He's definitely not looking confident in his play.

--

Nada vs UpMagic on Arkanoid.

Up got balls and proves it once more, although this time I think the BC's were clearly a bad call. Nada played AMAZINGLY well, that was a friggin' demonstration. It's the first game in this OSL in which I think he played as well as during the previous one. Flawless.

--

Savior vs Midas on HH

Midas really missed some opportunities with his early attacks. At one point before getting stim/medics he had like 7-8 rines to a lone, damaged sunken. He could have put more pressure. Then of course failing the M&M attack was the turning point. Savior had a plan and he made sure Midas would be forced to delay his tech as long as possible. Late starports = nothing to defend against guardians/devs/cracklings. Savior deserved the win but looking at those 3 games, Midas could have done really, really better results-wise.

I think it's a good thing Savior has advances though. I'm dreaming of a Casy vs Savior final.
Administrator
Blue
Profile Joined July 2004
Norway359 Posts
February 04 2007 05:43 GMT
#18
think oov played decent, just that arnc was flawless

a bit off topic: I have not watched all the latest matches, but the ones ive seen I never see the hold lurker trick. Is it not allowed or?
I must return to the time when I played with my own style, and when I determined the victory through strategies. And the strategies are a product of practicing more than anyone else. The key to success is to persevere through practice. Lim Yo-hwan
red.venom
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4651 Posts
February 04 2007 06:04 GMT
#19
On February 04 2007 14:43 Blue wrote:
think oov played decent, just that arnc was flawless

a bit off topic: I have not watched all the latest matches, but the ones ive seen I never see the hold lurker trick. Is it not allowed or?


Its allowed. Just really hard to get a good terran with hold lurker nowadays and even moreso at the pro level.. Also the maps are pretty tight paths, so terran would extra know its coming. And the observers dont tend to show the little details in a given game imo. If the video is high resolution enough I tend to look at the minimap a lot and quite often there are little things going on that they dont even catch.
Broom
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