Cultured Mini Mafia

On February 26 2014 10:07 Mocsta wrote:
suki.

I am confused why u r actually voting me.

U have listed actions u think I have taken, yet failed to comment on why those actions are scummy.

Can u go into more detail please.

On February 26 2014 10:51 TheChyz wrote:
Hi all. Mocsta seems pretty town to me atm. In his last game (as scum, GSL open mini) his contributions in the middle of day 2 or 3 were worse than they seem right now.

geript, why is it unlikely that rayn and toad can't be scum together?

On February 26 2014 10:56 Toadesstern wrote:

yeah I didn't want to add that to keep it a bit simpler or rather, it's directly implied.

On February 26 2014 11:36 Holyflare wrote:



Scum slip?

On February 26 2014 11:57 Mocsta wrote:
hmmm started off by wanting to write a case on Suki but now ended up as nullish.

Anyways for reference:
+ Show Spoiler +

Im leaning towards I haven't communicated my position well, and Suki has interpreted me the wrong way.

On February 26 2014 12:19 gumshoe wrote:


I will talk about how easy a mislynch I am all day everyday, so I can bitch about it later on when I get mislynched XD I see no reason to differentiate myself between games, being consistent overall makes me harder to read, which benefits my overall play,
Also last nail bite, I don't like how you came into the game threatening me over my activity and then proceeded to berate me for said play, honestly I feel like you had me as a fixed target no matter what I'd do, and although you claimed to want responses from me you were eager to start pushing me in my brief absence, so that when I did return I would be arguing from lower ground. Very particular of you / : the more I think about it the more I feel like a bump on the agenda.

On February 26 2014 12:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Now this is exactly what gumshoe does. His scumplay is actually far better than his townplay because he realizes what town wants to hear and contributes towards that. As town he makes absolutely awful posts (sorry gumshoe ^^) that might not say anything at all or have one thought which might be "i don't know what X is doing" and there are 1000 words around it that explain his thoguht process and where he found that information that was in the end useless. He literally posts exactly what is in his mind at that time and it ends up in terrible posts that are like the easiest thing ever to attack.

Now the green part in the quote makes me 100% sure WaveofShadow knows this. I also went to check on last couple of games where i remember both of gumshoe and Wave being town and gumshoe making his typical posts:

Quiet game mini mafia: EOD1, we have outed mafia. gumshoe comes in 20min before the deadline, ignores the outed mafia and makes a hugeass case on Wave. Wave does not even consider gumshoe being mafia, in fact based on his N1 posting he says the opposite.

TL Mafia LXIV: gumshoe makes terrible posts on D1 (like "vote me for mayor because i am so bad") and says nothing all D1. Wave never talks about gumshoe on D1, at all.

Now both of these games in addition to my first quote from Wave support my argument that Wave knows gumshoe's meta pretty well.

However, in this game, here is Wave's reasoning for voting for gumshoe:


Here is the post in question:

See, a big fucking thought process that ends in somewhat bad conclusion (that really says nothing). Now Wave's reasoning for calling this conclusion scummy is really terrible. First of all there is nothing scummy to not think about a conclusion you didn't think of because... YOU DIDN'T THINK OF IT! Second of all this is all characteristic to gumshoe's townplay, which Wave very well knows taking account he correctly described gumshoe's town!meta earlier on.

This case on gumshoe is horrible and is not from a townie

On February 26 2014 13:27 WaveofShadow wrote:

To spite you at this point I suppose.
I'm coming around to him but let me get there on my own. Find scum, not reasons to push town gumshoe on me.

Now if I'm wrong about suki (which knowing my newbie reads I very well could be), you think that she didn't respond to gumshoe because he is right?

On February 26 2014 13:29 raynpelikoneet wrote:

No i am saying i do think it's odd that you don't find it odd that a case that is really bad to you doesn't seem any bad to suki, who is the target of the case. Usually townies, when facing a bad case against them call it bad and are very vocal about it, especially when we are talking about suki here, who calls all the cases against her bad when she is town.

So this is not odd at all to you?

On February 26 2014 13:48 Cavalinho wrote:


You can read your own analysis of him from, like, a page ago and get an answer.

On February 26 2014 15:19 TheChyz wrote:
Ye, I played reckless. So I'm not allowed to play differently and have my philosophies change? Don't know what your leading to. All your doing is pointing out a playstyle that you probably don't agree with. Doesn't mean you have to like it. And im pretty sure both you and I would actually rather try to look for actual scum then keep talking about this thread clogging argument. Yes?

On February 26 2014 16:34 Mocsta wrote:
Caught up and re-read

Current reads:

Wave
Suki
Gumshoe
Calvalinho
toadesstern
ange777
jarjardrinks
vivax
geript
Holyflare
thechyz
rayn

Will expound in a bit. swamped @ work.

On February 26 2014 16:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I dunno but i think Mocsta just scumslipped.

On February 26 2014 17:10 Mocsta wrote:
Issues with TheChyz

+ Show Spoiler +

---

In summary:
Overall, TheChyz arguments have been weak and offer no insight into his thought process.
He is calling out people prematurely (e.g. Holyflare + Rayn/Toad) yet doesnt indicatve whether he reads those players town or scum.
He also prematurely calls me town when not under fire for my scumhunting, yet doesnt seem to support my reads.
Lastly, he goes out of his way to dodge questions (e.g. to Suki).

Now, TheChyz could be super paranoid town that doesnt want to give away information. HOWEVER, I dont attribute his posting as giving that vibe. I suppose this is epitomised by:

This is a guy that is intentionally trying to dodge giving out any insight AND THAT is scummy.

On February 26 2014 17:59 TheChyz wrote:
@Moscta, because most of the cases one me are weak as hell and the only thing I agree with is that I had been making fairly soft cases early on and not pushing my reads.

On February 26 2014 20:47 Holyflare wrote:
TheChyz you were getting called out for your filter not really saying much and your response was that you don't like to call someone mafia for doing 1 scummy thing, yet, in the next few posts you make a case on geript that literally only focuses on 1 aspect of his play (although he has shit all yes). What changed between those few posts that you felt compelled to make a case on someone who isn't doing much, has been talked about for the exact reasons you posted before and is doing nothing before you have even talked to them?

+ Show Spoiler +

On February 26 2014 22:06 Mocsta wrote:

I find it completely different because in the town game he shows an inquisitive mindset and even from a skim its clear he has his own thoughts on the game.,


Look with suki, there sa massive change in style between shadow and shadow reboot. Just overall light heartedness.

From glancing over the town n scum games; personally i still think she is town; HOWEVER, I also have noticed that after the first 24hrs or so she tends to produce analytical posts.
I suggest this will be the best way to get an accurate read on her.

Unfortunately its highly possible she will bandwagon Chz (which is relatively legitimate as either alginment) so I am not actually sure how much weight to give that.

meh. bored now.

On February 26 2014 22:23 Toadesstern wrote:
wait, how come noone considers this thing HF pointed out worth talking about:


Is a scumslip according to HF and I see where he's coming from because it doesn't look like Mocsta is even considering the possibility of JJD being mafia. He just flat out states that he's town without reasoning to "prove" his own towniness.

At the very least this is worth some talking

On February 26 2014 22:24 geript wrote:

Toad calls for millers to claim
Rayn asks Toad if he's a miller
Toad says no but he likes the question
Rayn's response to Toadescum is like really really towny; it's an exceptionally off the cuff and funny that it's very hard to come from scum. The problem is that it's rayn and he's done this as either alignment many times. So that's why it's only semi-alignment indicative for Rayn. The thing is, at no point does any of this help read Toad; the initial miller thing isn't alignment indicative; recognizing Rayn's response as towny isn't alignment indicative. Like the only thing that's happened since him returning to the thread for him is nothing. If he were town, he'd at least try to give me an honest read. But since he's not he's probably just scum who fixated on a dashing sexy guy.
[b/##unvote
##vote toadescum

On February 26 2014 22:34 Mocsta wrote:
JJd, since you are here.

Thoughts on Chz and Suki pls.

(Regarding Suki, i get you think she was carefree at the start, but what about overall)

On February 27 2014 00:34 Toadesstern wrote:
Best of geript

1) My townread on Rayn makes no sense
It makes an awful lot of sense. There's 3 reasons for stating rayn is town in that situation, 1 being a minor one, 2 being big ones.

1. Rayn does not use the situation to call me a retard. That's the minor one but it's a reasonable guess to assume rayn would do so. Mafia like to call out people, they're actively searching for shit people are doing and yes, calling for people to claim miller in a set-up with no selfaware millers would be such a situation
   
2. Rayn opting to call me town is a route that dips any confusion and chaos right in the bucket. He could be sitting there, laughing about how I misunderstood the OP and not say a word, watching as town falls into chaos because of that. Going out and telling people I'm town clears confusion 100%. That's a major townread.
   
3. There is absolutely no reason for Rayn to call me town if he's mafia. Zero. If he's mafia he is just fine giving me a strange look without following up with a townread on me. He would be perfectly fine to just come back later, tell people he knew about it all along, as can be seen by his posts and said he though I'm being an idiot. There's literally no reason whatsoever for a mafia-rayn to call me town in that situation. That's another major townread.
   

On February 27 2014 00:53 geript wrote:
Toad confirmed liar. Miller thing was trolly and he fucking knows it. His reads for calling Rayn town a fraking stupid; not wonky or weird enough to be towny. Just completely made up and not alignment indicative for anyone let alone Rayn. Third, he's completely taking things out of context and not even trying to understand how you can get a townie response from Rayn while the miller thing on his half is completely null. Anyone who can't see this needs to go back to the newbies for a year. It's completely fucking obvious.

On February 27 2014 05:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Les Mafia indicates JJD is town this game.

On February 27 2014 05:52 geript wrote:

I think he's town but that's only based on his post about having to go to his computer to post or something.

WaveofShadow
Holyflare
gumshoe
Ange777
Toadesstern
Cavalinho
JarJarDrinks
TheChyz soft tho
suki
raynpelikoneet
Mocsta soft tho
Vivax
Geript

So what do yout hink about suki and gumshoe? I haven't really looked at them.

On February 27 2014 06:06 Toadesstern wrote:
since the list-posting mood seems to go around, here's mine:

On February 27 2014 07:59 TheChyz wrote:


I was getting shit for playing the way I wanted to play and people wouldn't stop circlejerking around the fact that I don't play like they expect. So instead of trying to argue about philosophies in which is such a tangential topic I decided that I would have to learn to play the TL way and give them what they expect of me and that is to make a case. And also I had my thoughts on geript as most scummy for quiet some time in the game so thats why I talked about him.

On February 27 2014 08:18 Cavalinho wrote:


Because I died immediately last game.

I'm going to try being much more measured instead of just posting shit and seeing what happens.

On February 27 2014 09:38 WaveofShadow wrote:
VIVAX
Let's begin:

Vivax's opening post (not counting the geript townseal horseshit).
Initially when I looked at this I thought it was worth some town points given that he can come up with a narrative on gumshoe that made a good deal of sense and was from a POV I nor anyone else in the thread had considered thus far. I was wrong about this as Rayn showed me---JJD essentially mentioned it earlier, though obviously not nearly this fleshed-out. It's actually not too bad except for two things.
The first being the bolded section: gumshoe 'overjustifies' by giving reasons for sheeping Mocsta and trying to bring his own opinion to someone else's case/scumread. Townies do this all the friggin' time, and I see no reason why this is scum-indicative alone. If town doesn't want to sheep for no reason then gumshoe is doing the right thing AND providing his own reasons for agreeing with Mocsta. The second problem with this was brought up before: why now?

Vivax finally explains here after being endlessly prodded:


Now there is nothing wrong with that on its own but Vivax shows here that he has none of the townie desire to 'get to the bottom of things' and figure out what gumshoe's alignment truly is.
I find the post 'interesting' as I mentioned earlier and he posts this:

How is the fact that there was a MASSIVE discussion around determining gumshoe's alignment irrelevant if that is the purpose of posting a case on him in the first place? Like that's basic scumhunting 101---find scum. Vivax posts a case and just asks for comments, he doesn't actually seem to be interested in figuring out gumshoe at all. + Show Spoiler +I'll get back to this.


I mentioned this post earlier and immediately I got the willies. Shitting on thread atmosphere when basically everyone in here has been (apparently) earnestly trying in one form or another to do some determination, and Vivax has the nerve to come in here after doing dick all and call out others. Also important to note is the preemptive lurker call. This is scum mindset right here: call myself out for something real easy so nobody else has the chance to do so. And hey, if anyone brings this up, I can always say: "Well why as scum would I draw attention to myself in that way?" There are many scum who have no issues drawing attention to themselves, me included. Vivax doesn't strike me as being afraid of the spotlight. It sounds WIFOMy but it absolutely isn't. It shows clear scum guilt and a scum mindset. Town has absolutely no reason to post this.



And yet, this:

Vivax puts a lot of effort into making a case that calls me hypocritical and yet does similar things himself. He calls out gumshow for not gathering info for town and yet town wants his Chyz read,which he refuses to offer.

He gives his reasoning later in here:

But I disagree with this, and apparently so does Rayn. I find absolutely no reasoning why you can't provide a townread, ESPECIALLY when providing said townread allows people to get a read of YOU. It has NOTHING to do with town circlejerking around each other's reads, this post makes it simply seem like you're avoiding giving the Chyz read above because it's bullshit and you don't want people reading you because of it.

Vivax's points also reek of someone who is trying to come up with justification as he goes along:

Already commented on this---uses 'feels' to try to make me look bad even though whether 'feels' are ACTUALLY bad or not doesn't matter worth a damn to me and people who have played with me since I started using them know that. Has absolutely nothing to do with the main set of points he tries to use against me---the perceived hypocrisy which in fact, ISN'T.


He neglects to mention this last point in that case full of effort I linked above, why just drop it here? Oh I know, just looking for more random crap to paint me in a scummy light, despite the fact that (as I already explained) I did in fact read the gumshoe scumgame and it was part of what very obviously led me to be very unsure of gumshoe's alignment as he is hyper-aware of his own meta.

More 'justification trying' below:
Complains about gumshoe sheeping weakly while adding a random point for overjustification earlier...well what do you know! Look here!

'FIlterskim-' yeah that basically sums up Vivax's efforts this game. Association reads Mocsta based on his random-ass townread of me and takes a basically inane question and calls it scummy. Bingo, good enough to sheep Rayn!


TL;DR
Vivax has a clear scum agenda throughout his posting. He has no desire to actually read through the filters of any of his scumspects (Mocsta, me, gumshoe), provides weak reads that are all then dropped---he cba to actually figure out the alignment of the people he talks about because he doesn't have to DO that as scum. When he does he comes up with his reads and what he wants to do FIRST and adds in weak justification points later---not the towny way, bro.

Vivax is obvscum to me at this point. A much stronger read than Mocsta (at least to me) and I believe he needs to be lynched.

No more ignoring the points I'm bringing up about Vivax, I expect people to read this and if they still find Vivax towny, I want to know WHY. If you're all still on Mocsta you can at the very least have a look at this before he comes back.

On February 27 2014 10:02 suki wrote:
Like for all the activity in the thread so many people have been called out as scum and there's no consensus. Toad and geript are at each others throats. Mocsta is being wagoned on. Thechyz, vivax now, gumshoe, wave. All of them can't possibly be mafia

Usually town has some direction day one.this game there is none

On February 27 2014 12:49 raynpelikoneet wrote:
In GSL BH actually did promise Mocsta to roll him town and didn't (because what's the point of hydraing if you are scum?!?).
So either Mocsta has requested the same thing again and didnt' get it or he is modconfirming himself as town in which case he should be modkilled.