EPTWitchcraft Mini Mafia II
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
Other than that, looking forward to playing together with you all! | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
As for witchpowershiznit, I suggest we claim our votes only, 72 hours after. I've come up with an interesting idea as well. We will claim the votes in order, one at a time. I have an algorhithm based on certain actions in the game that make me very confident in the idea this will work. Also, vote me for blue. I'd like to hear more from players: raynpelikoneet, hzflank, thrawn, Sn0_Man + Myself. ##Vote: WaveOfShadow | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
I also have secondary reasons for voting WoS. And thank you for the welcome. | ||
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Cephiro
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On November 05 2013 08:47 thrawn2112 wrote: Ok. So what are your thoughts on this game? You've just now made your first post, but it's somewhat devoid of content which is surprising since you already know who you want to vote for. You've discussed some things with me without really talking about your own views on the game. So far, despite you making a serious vote and having a serious conversation with me about another player, I still have no clue how you're thinking about the game. Why is this and can you fix it? Yes, I didn't intend to start off with a case, neither reason my vote on WoS more specificly. If there is someone you want my general or specific opinion on, just ask. I have several reads to a direction or another, as well as many nullreads. I just don't consider most of them to be worth sharing right now. Nevertheless I'm content with joining in like this, and I intend to make my thought process clear regarding my reads to the most extent, excluding possible thingamagics I have a tendency of pulling off. As for a more concise reply: It is because I wanted to not present all my thoughts in the open immediately. I can "fix" it by replying to any queries you might have. I will also be sharing more content when I find it necessary. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On November 05 2013 09:06 WaveofShadow wrote: I'm sick of managing shit. You go right ahead. Interesting case on Sn0, hzflank. I don't feel particularly good about Sn0 right now but your case doesn't quite do it for me. He has basically specifically absolved himself of all responsibility in the day thus far so you attacking him on thsoe points is just kinda 'meh' with me because he isn't really going to care I imagine. I could lynch him BECAUSE he's being particularly useless but it would probably end up being more akin to a policy lynch than for the reasons you mentioned. Also I still have to go back and look at your scum newbie because I kinda forgot. Do you truly consider yourself to have been that clearly "the most townie player in the game"? Your frustration on gumshoes case alone seemed very overboard. I also don't like how you don't even consider the option of you being lynched at all. Keep that up and I wouldn't mind making it happen. Activity does not time make. It's interesting claims like your recent one which make me a bit vary. On November 05 2013 09:09 WaveofShadow wrote: I remember reading this and was going to say the same thing. Umasi, this is really bad honestly. Not budging on a vote without even considering actions since the original pressure or re-evaluating your reads constantly is really scummy. I find it interesting that you claim that he hasn't re-evaluated his reads. Or does re-evaluation equal to changing ones opinion to you? I often re-evaluate some of my reads and still end up thinking the same, sometimes even more confirmed on my stance on a player. I don't mind Umasi getting pressured at all, but I'd like to see it happen for better reasoning than this. I do agree it'd be nice to hear how Vanescos new posts affected his reads, but as far as I know he hasn't been around to reply to the question yet. Small things like this combined with how you are trying to enforce a "I'm the towniest player"-status on yourself this early on so hard is what ticks me off. Sure you post a lot, but that's by no means alignment indicative. Looking at your posts from a neutral point of view, I don't honestly see them as pro-town as you claim them to be. | ||
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Cephiro
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On November 05 2013 09:25 WaveofShadow wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 05 2013 09:23 Cephiro wrote: Do you truly consider yourself to have been that clearly "the most townie player in the game"? Your frustration on gumshoes case alone seemed very overboard. I also don't like how you don't even consider the option of you being lynched at all. Keep that up and I wouldn't mind making it happen. Activity does not time make. It's interesting claims like your recent one which make me a bit vary. I find it interesting that you claim that he hasn't re-evaluated his reads. Or does re-evaluation equal to changing ones opinion to you? I often re-evaluate some of my reads and still end up thinking the same, sometimes even more confirmed on my stance on a player. I don't mind Umasi getting pressured at all, but I'd like to see it happen for better reasoning than this. I do agree it'd be nice to hear how Vanescos new posts affected his reads, but as far as I know he hasn't been around to reply to the question yet. Small things like this combined with how you are trying to enforce a "I'm the towniest player"-status on yourself this early on so hard is what ticks me off. Sure you post a lot, but that's by no means alignment indicative. Looking at your posts from a neutral point of view, I don't honestly see them as pro-town as you claim them to be. Blah blah blah, ' I don't like your posting but I'm still calling you scum for no reason.' K Ceph. LOL wait a minute. You're threatening to lynch me if I keep up my arrogant behaviour, but you're ALREADY VOTING me. You need to explain what in the actual fuck you're doing right now. No stupid-ass beeg playz. For no reason? Hardly. Maybe you should read more closely instead of skimming through it without thought. Especially as for how sure you are of yourself, your two last lines are very confusing. Is it not really more obvious than that? I'm hardly pointing out some reasons why I'm suspicious of you. You reply with indifference and not caring, as well asking me the weirdest stuff ever instead of trying to comment on my points. Is it because you can't, or do you have a reason for not wanting to, other than "being obvious town and annoyed at people for accusing me?" I'm simply saying that I have no problem in properly pressuring you if you keep confirming my suspicions at the rate you currently do. You can hardly say I've pressured you to any extent yet, but that's something easily changed. No stupid-ass big plays in this one simple matter. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On November 04 2013 10:48 WaveofShadow wrote: Umasi can I sheep you? I don't even like sheeping but I fucking love your post. Also you're not lynching me like you said you would so that's a plus. Hell I'll even add a little of my own somethin'-somethin'. Vanesco's post looks like typical 'scum trying to jump on the first odd thing somebody does for early game contributions n' shizz. ##Vote: Vanesco Vanesco it was you who said you're new to TL but not new to mafia in general, right? Also thrawn y dat vote? I find it interesting that you start the game with a stance like this, following into posting a ton and trying to appear like the towniest town. In my eyes if looking like the most-likely-to-be-town player, this is a very counterproductive to start off. It seems to me you only realized that a little afterwards. I can't blame you for sheeping on Umasi, since I considered Vanesco's posts up to that point looking bad as well. What I don't like in this post is how you give a plus to Umasi for not lynching you like he had claimed to. How is that a good thing from a town perspective? Even if you were town, I'd see it concerning that someone is ready to drop their opinion on you that quickly. I'd jump on that as something suspcious, rather than accept it with a warm welcome "Yay you're my buddy you're not lynching me." ---> As a single post, one cannot draw many conclusions as it has both pro-town and pro-scum points. What I'm interested in is in how it differs from the later play of his. On November 04 2013 11:11 WaveofShadow wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2013 11:03 Vanesco wrote: Yes that was me WaveofShadow (what name abbreviation do you prefer?). I haven't played with anybody here but ObviousOne was host of my only TL game (Newbie Mini Mafia 50). If you just look at like first 1-2 pages of day 1 of that then you realize that I start off pretty similar. I don't like to start of games with "oh how is everybody doing, lets have fun and make jokes guys". That contributes very little to town in my opinion and just putting something on someone will always get the conversation rolling. Overall I'm happy the game is being started (more seriously) and that suspicion is being put on people (even if it is me). We are never going to gain anything just sitting around and making jokes all day. ugghghghghghghgh I hate this conversation. It happens so damn often. First of all: don't talk about ongoing games. Even if you're dead. (I make that mistake way too often as well.) Second - I don't find joking around early game or your attempt to 'start conversation' or move shit forward alignment indicative. Waaayyyy too much WIFOM there, so I'm going to ignore it. Let's talk about something relevant, shall we? What do you think of hzflank and his attempt to make plays? Or Sylencia's response to your attack? Why would you completely ignore it? In all honest, your second point can be put into almost any post in the game made by almost anyone. It is almost impossible to narrow down one post as alignment-indicative. Most posts are easily able to be made from the perspective of any alignment. It is the combination and continuance of several posts that form a constant line of thought which can be analyzed more easily. The more content, the more there is to go through, but the more likely it also becomes to find inconsistencies. As I think someone pointed out earlier in the game, town players can also be inconsistent, which is true. However, town players in general are not as worried of playing inconsistently. A scumteam is more reliant on having a single member with them than town. One inconsistent scum player could hurt the whole team quite badly, whereas an equally high degree of damage is seldomly caused to town because of an inconsistent town player. Scum players have in their mind every single instant. They know they are the bad guys. They know they are being hunted. They know they can't afford slips. They're subluminally under constant pressure, due to the sheer knowledge of the situation. They are bad and they can't be allowed to caught. As for a town player, it's much easier to be relaxed. Few town players have the mindset of "If I don't catch scum I've screwed the game for my team, I can't afford to make mistakes and let them down." ---> Scum is under constant pressure, scum is also more likely to be inconsistent. Especially later in the game when you may able to force them into a situation where they are forced to choose the lesser of the two evils. Reactions in those moments tell a ton. On November 04 2013 11:12 WaveofShadow wrote: Why dat? I feel like my first instinct (meta aside) if I were analyzing a post like that would be scum making early excuses for himself. Seems like an odd conclusion to draw. This is a short but interesting post. Scum in general are not keen in pointing out their own mistakes. While that is true in most cases, especially in early-game it is extremely rarely picked upon. So it is easy for one to make themselves look better by pointing out the flaws in their own play, as they do not have a history of posts to compare a single flaw to. The longer the game goes, the likelier it is that the mistake becomes more significant and hard to point out. On November 04 2013 12:04 WaveofShadow wrote: I have an idea, the question is, should I care whether you think that or not? The same can be applied to Rayn's most recent thought. Given Vanesco's latest post I'm happy with my vote where it is atm. Is there a single reason why town should not care if they look suspicious? Even if it's possible that the accusation is made by a scum player and holds no value, you can't count on that. It's more likely that it's genuine suspicion from a town player. Why would one as town ever want to intentionally cause suspicion on himself along his comrades? There's extremely rarely a pro-town outcome of that. That ticks me off. Especially because he doesn't care to respond to a light question with suspicion aimed directly at him, but when gumshoe made a case he was all over the place. On November 04 2013 12:10 WaveofShadow wrote: Have you ever seen scum-me? And thread control based on first post? And 'giving it up' to Umasi? Like....I think I sort of follow your thought process maybe but that's a really weird way of explaining it. Why would you think I'd have to establish control of the thread in my first post? Do any of my first posts as town accomplish this? How does sheeping Umasi remove any credibility I may or may not have? This is a very interesting post. Sure, one cannot and "doesn't have to" establish a presence in the thread in their first post. The thing here is that at this point, WoS doesn't seem to mind that at all. It is counter-productive to play like this at start, only to follow up with an extremely control-oriented play. I'm most curious what caused this sudden change? At this point in the game, he doesn't seem to be concerned how dominant he is in the thread. Later on, it's probably the most alerting thing in his play. Then he does have these small exchanges that seem more towny to me, but can easily be seen from a scum perspective as well. Such as: On November 04 2013 12:55 WaveofShadow wrote: As for 'who we are firm with,' care to elaborate? I asked you a question and you just gave me a very generic answer, without the specifics I was asking for. This was aimed at Umasi. It could be either scum play, softly pointing out a flaw in a townies play, or it could be town play that is simply firm on having their question answered. After all, without asking questions and answering them, we'd barely have any content to find scum by. On November 04 2013 13:24 WaveofShadow wrote: As for hypocrisy, I don't need to try to contribute, or look like I'm contributing. I fucking DO contribute. And he follows up with a post like this. No offense, but to my eyes his posts so far don't seem extremely contributive. Whether he actually does or not is not the most relevant point about this, but what is is the fact that he starts to show the need of being "confirmed". He wants to be acknowledged for contributing. If a townie plays well and has proper contribution, they don't need to ask for being shown the gratitude, or being acknowledged of their contribution in thread. WoS on the other hand seems to clearly be wanting this acknowledgement. I currently see it as scum trying to establish an early control of the thread, faking as a strong town player to cause many mislynches and avoid the danger of being scrutinized as much himself. (Especially in bigger games, the general opinion tends to affect the decisions of unsure players a lot. If the general consensus of the thread is that player X is town, few individuals are ready to challenge that opinion and go against it by presenting their own view on the situation.) On November 04 2013 14:53 WaveofShadow wrote: Onegu calm down, I obviously misinterpreted him in our exchanges and for that I apologize as well. Back to the game: ##Unvote I REALLY fucking hope this doesn't bite me in the ass but Vanesco is now exhibiting a little more of what I was waiting for. + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2013 13:44 Vanesco wrote: I don't get where this idea of my calling out Syl for not being firm is coming from. I just didn't like what he had to say and I decided that instead of people joking around I wanted to actually start the game, so I called him out. I didn't really take much of a stance because nothing in his response made me feel like he was scummy. I'm having a really big scum read on Umasi currently. As explained before, in his first post I think only consists of 1 real accusation which is that I do not like talking about strategy since scum can meta it. To me it seems that he wants town to discuss strategy which leads me to the two most likely conclusions. 1) He doesn't know what to do, usually means a weak town and can be tricked easily by scum, or 2) mafia that wants to know the towns plans and how to use it against them His only other post is him making a joke at somebody who thinks he's scum and then saying that I didn't pressure Syl hard (which I explain in the paragraph above). He then talks about how I don't like to talk about strategy which I explain why above. He mistakenly calls strategy "mechanics" when they are completely different things (in my opinion). I view mechanics as the rules of the game where strategy is how to play the game. I don't know if this is just me but it seems like he wants to blame that I'm not allowing people to discuss the rules of the game when infact I just don't like when people discuss the strategy they are going to use. Essentially Vanesco, whether or not he has played on other forums or whatever boils down to either noob scum or noob town. An experienced player would not need attempt to earnestly call people out simply to 'get the game going' without dropping a vote or taking a hard stance, whether pressure-vote or not. I redact my earlier scumread on him and (hopefully this doesn't bite me in the ass) he is now noob town. The OMGUS on Umasi, (OMGUS in my experience tends to be used by town way more often than scum) the blatant disregard for what a towny is 'supposed to do' (why call someone out for no reason whatsoever---only serves to draw attention to himself which he has certainly garnered). I would think a newbie scum would at the very least attempt to backtrack due to inherent guilt when being shown that what he has done is considered scummy here. Townread for now, but Vanesco I want to see something positive from you real soon. Scumread on Umasi notwithstanding. The infamous "noob"-card. Labeling a player as noob-town or noob-scum is an incredibly easy and convinient excuse for ignoring them a part of the game. I don't like how quickly WoS changes his opinion on Vanesco just based on that post. Goes from a scumread to a townread. If they were scumbuddies, this is an incredibly easy way to start off for them both. WoS starts with some sheeping on a player that looks bad -> good for him. After Van posts and looks better, WoS "re-evaluates" his read and has "provided content". This makes Van looks more positive in the way WoS presents him. The noob-label also effectively lets him ignore his actions for the time being "well he could be noob as either alignment so you really never know of those, I'd rather lynch into more urgent matters at hand" -> Enabling scum to concentrate on lynching strong town players instead to start with. As was already mentioned in the thread, Van effectively uses the free out that WoS gives him. And they point it out themselves. Now why would scum do that? Well.. some secrets are best hidden right under your nose. You just can't think it would be layed conviniently in front of you. On November 04 2013 14:58 WaveofShadow wrote: ET, Vanesco's behaviour leads me to believe this is a case of failing to fit in right away in his first grand adventure with the big boys. I've seen this happen multiple times, (VA being a notable example) where people's playstyles clash heavily with what we're used to seeing here on TL and people inevitably get called scummy for it. Essentially if Vanesco were scum he'd be pretty damn aggressive in his first foray past his newbies and that simply doesn't seem wise to me. Do you think Vanesco is scum for his actions or can he be town as well? If my assumptions are true, this post makes more than a lot of sense. He's "explaining his opinion" to ET, trying to manipulate ET into seeing Vanesco's play from a town perspective. Note that he uses the "noob"-card here again. Why can't Vanesco prove his townness himself? I could see the point of explaining his own view from a town perspective, but the question at the end does it for me. It's so clearly leading the recipient into the thought process of "Hmm, what if he is actually town after all?". As I mentioned earlier in the case, almost every single post can be seen from a town or scum perspective. If you have a player you somewhat trust telling you to look at a post from another point of view, you are more likely to change your bias from reading it from a scum perspective into reading it from a town perspective, which is exactly what this post wants. (Note, it has been psychologically proven that especially the longer the period the time in-between of examining a case, the likelier it is for one to adapt into the newest evidence brought forth.) On November 04 2013 15:51 WaveofShadow wrote: Anyone is welcome to comment on Vanesco basically taking the out I gave him and running with it, because I still lean towny on him, but ughhhhhhhhh This is what I already pointed out. How conviniently it's placed right in front of us. This post is so wishy-washy as well. "Please do pick up on this point and scrutinize him for it, I won't do it because I think he's town." ... Like what? Maybe it's time to re-consider your read then. Or if you're leaning on him being town, why point out a point for someone else to attack instead of yourself? If you really believed that Vanesco was town, then you're essentially throwing out a free bone for scum to start chewing on. What are you going to do then? This is why I believe this post is also from a scum perspective. On November 04 2013 16:11 WaveofShadow wrote: So basically anyone who thinks you are scummy must automatically be scum? Was I scum until the moment I removed my vote? More irrelevant interaction. This is how my thought process goes as I see this. 1) A question asked to make Van rethink about his stance on the bolded. 2) Intended to look like it's a guided question to make a town-read to rethink about something stupid he said, rather than genuinely worrying about thinking if WoS himself was scum. 3) Which combined with the other posts makes me think it's more of "under-your-nose" style of posting. It also creates interaction between these two players. Sometimes a great way to find scum is the lack of interaction between their teammates. This way one is not able to pick up on that. 4) Shortly it boils into me thinking that this is what they want to achieve: "Why would scum help his buddy look more towny in the thread when they could just do in the QT?" --> Exactly my point. This probably what many would think at first, why bother. Because as said before, scum being shoved right into your face at a constant rate is not likely to be recognized. It's too close. On November 04 2013 22:50 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh and Vanesco, you're getting all offended at people calling you out and nitpicking over everything you do, but people are doing it for good reason. Your play has not been very good so far. As far as you not calling people scum who vote for you---that's literally exactly what you did, and then you said after your first scum target Umasi, you'd be looking at those who 'sheeped along.' Am I supposed to take away something else from that post of yours? If so please explain. Won't bother writing another paragraph, this is exactly what I said earlier. Hidden right in front of you. Why would they do this in thread when they could do it in the QT? -> No-one expects it, and it makes them look better in-thread. On November 04 2013 23:12 WaveofShadow wrote: I personally plan on being VERY careful about hzflank. He is a strong player and not to be underestimated. "Be suspicious of the guy, he's probably scummer thinking of something wicked to keel you." On November 04 2013 23:33 WaveofShadow wrote: There have been very few votes actually placed so far this game, and a minute amount of suspicion on very few targets so it seems to me to be advantageous for scum to simply be satisfied with the status quo thus far and not move suspicion off of the targets who are already under question somewhat, both of whom I believe to be town presently. Random thought/stream-of-consciousness (since I was reading hzflank's setup analysis which I liked): Would it ever be worth it to simply claim blue roles during the day? Yes we will lose someone immediately I suppose but is that an acceptable risk if it means we can track role usage (assuming no mis-elections I suppose)? It may not be worth it I guess if we fuck up bad and elect multiple scum since they can lie about getting RBed and implicate a towny in a 2scum 1town election scenario---yeah come to think of it I think it all falls apart if we fuck up and elect scum since they can lie about checks as well, and the nature of the checks makes it a hell of a lot easier to lie (regarding something like Blaspheme, for example). Then why isn't he doing anything about it? I hardly see him presenting better options. With his "super-town-presence", I'd expect him to do exactly that. Try and convince town with his control to lynch who he thinks is scum. But alas, no he won't. Also the second bolded message, I just can't see this thought even popping into the mind of a townie. Like really? On November 04 2013 23:45 WaveofShadow wrote: Sweet, we're getting the non-lurk gumshoe this game. Alrighty let's see: I'm actually surprised you were the only one to mention this so far, even Vanesco himself didn't bother. It has nothing to do with the perceived loss of momentum. I could very easily have kept my vote on him all day if I still believed him to be scummy, but as you can see I wasn't 100% sure of him being scum earlier on; I even mentioned 'nooby or scum' in one of my first few posts about him. It wasn't a bait to get him going, but I wanted him to post more to see his reaction to the pressure; that is whether he reacted in a towny or scummy way (both nooby imo). I got my answer and unvoted accordingly. Call it wishy-washy if you will but I have provided reasoning for everything I have done all day and been completely transparent with my reads and questioning. As far as the 'bite me in the ass' comments, I can't talk about one of those, but I've been systematically wrong on newbie reads a lot, so it is something I am particularly paranoid about. I was wrong about Koshi in the first game I was exposed to him as scum, and I was also wrong about Chairman Ray in a recent game of his. It's not going to stop me from performing analysis but I worry a lot because I know my analysis can be wrong, hence me opening it up for others to comment on it and pick apart, like you are right now. Other thoughts: If my goal was to neuter Vanesco, why did he basically take the entire reasoning for the 'out' I gave him and use it? You'd think if he was a fiercely strong and independent player like you are surmising, that he'd try and fight that notion. Also gumshoe, I hate to drop this card but do you honestly think at this point that the most active and engaging person in the thread is scum? Check that gumshoe sentence. Right on. RIGHT ON. Check the amount of noob-card being used to explain his actions with Van. The one bolded after is funny, because that is exactly what he has done. All the possible scumstuff right in front of our eyes. Why hide it if you don't need to? Check the last sentence. He's worried that his analysis might be wrong and something that others can pick apart. BINGO. As a townie, you're not worried about presenting your opinion. If you are proven wrong, it's only a good thing that you shared your read with the thread, made everyone re-think about the issue and everything related to it. And if you end up agreeing that you were wrong, how is it a bad thing? Sure, you used some time on trying to prove a townie was scum, and you don't look like the most town player, but it gives you a chance to move on and make better plays. If you never put your opinion out, how could you ever convince anyone on the time you may have a correct read? You can never be sure in mafia. That is why we constantly post our opinions and analysis. To get feedback from other townies to find the scum together. And in the end, he tries to present himself as the one who provides the most content. Trying to make himself look much better than he actually does. On November 04 2013 23:56 WaveofShadow wrote: Like...I find it pretty ridiculous at this point that anyone could suspect me but that's just self-bias and ego talking right now I suppose. Logically I know I shouldn't be absolved of suspicion unless proven it should be so but I feel pretty damn good about my performance so far, so I just find it weird that I am anyone's #1 scumread considering I have double/triple the filter and content of most people in this game. You couldn't find anyone better gumshoe? More self-inflation. Funny is how here his best reasoning for not being a #1 scumread is the bolded, yet later on he tries to argue that it's not just the amount he posts, but the "quality" he posts. And yet he has earlier referenced for the sheer quantity being one of the main points why he is town. On November 05 2013 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote: Onegu - opportunistic as fuck. You're all over me and liking what I do and now that gumshoe posts some walls you turn on me like a rabid dog. Don't make me put you down. Come to think of it, 'rabid dog' is a good example for you turning on hzflank too. You're rubbin' me all sorts of 'the wrong way' all of a sudden. I'm not surprised no one has called me out, I was surprised no one called me out SPECIFICALLY about the point regarding the 'bite-me-in-the-ass/wishy-washiness' because it's a really easy 'case' to make as town or scum and people do that shit all the time to contribute. Requires very little effort. And please, activity is certainly not my only defense; why is that the only thing you felt was relevant enough to comment on? Let's hear you come up with something this game that someone else hasn't done first, then we can talk, k boyo? Gumshoe I will address your recent stuff a little later when I have more time; i like discussing with you so it would be nice to get you off of my case so we can go somewhere productive. Trashtalks Onegu. Yeah, I can agree that his jumping along with the case was indeed very opportunistic. But I love the way he calls him out for doing something that someone else hasn't done. What original content has WoS provided then? If activity is certainly not his only defense, why doesn't he provide an example of what else there is then? The last post is even more opportunistic than Onegu ever could have been which is fun. "I really want to address your case, but I'd love if you just forgot it and we could be townbuddies, so I don't have to waste time on that and possibly make a mistake confirming me as scum. I'm saying this because you look too towny to be accused, so I'll try to buddy you instead." On November 05 2013 01:53 WaveofShadow wrote: lol I wish I rolled scum. Or even 3P (even though this game doesn't have I think). I'm sick of VT. Sn0 we can have it out now if you'd like. I'm bored and I'm here, though no ability to dive atm. Also do you have anything more concrete to say about onegu besides weak suspicion? Because I could theoretically be on board for an Onegu lynch, but I want to do some more looky looky before I'm sure. ... I guess this is the way he "provides content". -> "I guess I could lynch Onegu but I'm not really sure" + fluff talk about oh damn I am so town I wish I was scum sometimes. On November 05 2013 02:52 WaveofShadow wrote: Gumshoe's entrance is solid. I mean, he's wrong, but it's at least everything you want to see from a townie. This just looks like more posting to try and make gumshoe trust him. On November 05 2013 02:59 WaveofShadow wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 05 2013 02:39 Vanesco wrote: I don't like how WoS has been only on my case from basically the start of the game and his inconsistencies so far. He even points out to me not to talk about any games still going on but when Echelon does so here in direct response to WoS, he doesn't even mention it. These inconsistencies pop up many times in his play. He keeps on talking about the out I took from him when I even address that it was from Echelon and I disagree with him, yet he persist that it is because of his out. WoS says that "activity is not [his] only defense", however when you are confused why people would put suspicion on you you just say that you think your performance is decent and that you have a large filter. If somebody doesn't agree with your performance (which is why you might be on their scum list) then the only defense that's left is your filter. Overall I am leaning slightly scummy. I don't really like your reasoning sno_man on the lynch on Onegu. Especially as a Day 1 lynch I think it would not be a wise move just lynching somebody because you have a hard time reading them. This is the only thing thrawn has posted that seems relevant so far. It seems like he's not interested in any arguments on me and just goes straight at WoS for his post on me. It seems more like a deflection off of me and onto WoS. Maybe there was something more he wanted to say about WoS but he doesn't really have any useful information apart from the part i quoted above. Yes it was his special day but I do not like what he has contributed in the game so far. My two strongest town reads in the game so far is Echelon and Sylencia. Echelon has made posts that make sense to me and his response to OO saying that Echelon was going "bat-shit" seems very level headed. I was comfortable with Sylencia's first response to my first post and he has stuck true to everything that he has said from the start of the game. My only defense is certainly not my filter as I have explained before (see what I wrote to gumshoe and will continue to do so after this). I am perfectly happy with my content as well as the size of my filter as I personally believe (despite perceived inconsistencies that people are real happy to bring up) that I have once again been completely transparent with my reads, been question and pushing when I feel something is off, and responded to pressure accordingly. There's also something else that you and gumshoe neglect to mention which I will show in an upcoming post responding to his long posts: inconsistencies do not a scum make. You have to be able to explain why any inconsistencies that may or may not be present are likely to come from scum. Not only do I not believe I was inconsistent anywhere, I certainly do not believe you can show how I am scummy based on those inconsistencies. For example you bring up ET's response to me which I never brought up again. Why is that indicative of scum OR inconsistent? I asked him a question, he answered it, I was satisfied. Check the bussing going on. Who'd think these two are scumbuddies? As for the point of inconsistency, check what I wrote earlier in my case. It's not a certain scumtell, but it's much more likely to come from scum. And this combined with WoS's posting history ... yeah. Also he again brings up how his only defense is not his filter. Well... I still haven't found any other defense. I guess he's hoping others are too lazy to look? On November 05 2013 03:15 WaveofShadow wrote: Alright inconclusivity---I haven't been able to do detailed filter diving/looking into past games until now. What I said about hzflank isn't inconsistent at all. Just because I like one post of his doesn't mean I like his filter on the whole which contains mostly nothing. That's really nitpicky from you gumshoe and I expect better. I fully intend to follow my train of though regarding hzflank once I can dive into his past games, which is exactly what I said in the first bolded section of my post. Not sure why you feel there is a problem there. Would you prefer if I just say nothing to the thread until I can write an essay at a time? Because sadly I'm pretty sure it's evident to you that is not how I play---I prefer stream-of-consciousness and will post whenever and whatever I feel. And on that note---do you REALLY think my posting is 'tip-toeing?' Why the fuck would I as scum post every single thought that goes through my head for the town to read and obsess over like people have been, draw as much attention to myself as possible, and keep positive discussion going? That makes absolutely no sense, and again gumshoe I would figure you'd pick up on that. This kind of behaviour makes zero sense from a mafia standpoint (unless you wanted to make the argument that I'm attempting to spam up the thread with useless shit, about which I'd be pretty pissed if you called all of my posting useless). The fact that you wouldn't call me honest either is frustrating to me, because even in my one fucking scumgame I'm almost completely honest. Not to mention you have no way of proving that at all so it just amounts to an attack on my character. If there is one thing that can be said about my TL Mafia play, I have NEVER lied as town, and very rarely as even 3P or mafia. This is something I don't get. Why does diving into past games tell you so much about the current game. It doesn't. Some players MAY have similarities in their playstyle, but you just can't metagame experienced players like that. WoS even pointed out himself that hzflank is one he will be very careful with, so why does he think that he can out-meta him then? Just tell us your opinion in his play in this game. I don't care what he did in some earlier game in whatever point of history. He also says his preferred posting-style is stream-of-conciousness. All these big posts he makes makes me think the exact opposite. He's clearly putting some further thought into what he posts, rather than just doing it on a whim. It's funny how he deflects the actual point I've been making all case on him. "Why would someone be this straightforward as scum?" Exactly because of that. Even he assumes it's something people don't consider a possibility. Thus, all over your face right in front of you, hoping you won't get it. No need to lie about his play when he can be honestly doing all the scumstuff in front of you for the most extent. On November 05 2013 03:15 WaveofShadow wrote: Do you actually plan on picking apart everything I do and say? As far as the 'out' I gave Vanesco by means of my analysis of him and my unvoting---in my mind what ET posted and what I did amounts to the same thing. How is this not related to his aggressive stance on Umasi? Him ramping up his offense in response is exactly what I stated here I don't think a noobie scum would do. How is that unrelated exactly? So in my mind I suppose Vanesco took my out but in his he took ET's, but they are the basically the same thing and the beginning of my analysis to Vanesco was posted even before ET's questions, so we came up with them at similar points in time while thinking similar things---this gives me an incidental townread on ET btw. As for the quote you mentioned---basically the way you set it up I have no way to not look scummy. You don't see anything towny in that whatsoever. If I leave my vote on him I look scummy because Vanesco is town. If I take it off I was making excuses for myself and setting it up. The fact that you have shown to refuse to see the possibility of ANYTHING towny in my play by the way you have attempted to tear apart everything I say and do leaves me troubled because I know you can be a strong force for town, but you're just not doing town a great service by acting this way. At this point I'm finished responding to cases by you against me because I don't feel like there will be anything left to say---you'll either take what I have to say and weigh it and decide whether it makes sense from either point of view and come to the right decision, or you will continue to nitpick and further misrepresent what I am doing and saying to fit your read. Either way I don't feel like there is anything to gain by further discussing me. Onto the subject of hzflank who I will be looking at shortly---Gumshoe what are YOUR thoughts on him? Hell what are your thoughts on anyone aside from me? Note, he points out that Van has to be a noobie. And it's not something a noobie scum would do. Why is he so sure that he is an inexperienced player, and believe himself to be so much superior? The way he tries to defend the quote gumshoe mentioned is funny. It's like he's acknowledged it's scummy and is extremely hard to look at from a town perspective. I doubt that gumshoe is reading everything with red glasses on with purpose, especially due to his later adding of not blaming WoS being his main point of the case. This is a great point in hindsight as WoS is arguing for gumshoe to be tunneling. Duh, if you think someone is scum, of course you try to rip them apart. There's nothing wrong as long as you provide good reasons for why you think so. Once you start bashing at someone with no reasoning to back it up, that's when things go wrong and should be looked into. gumshoe however provides reasoning during his whole case. And fittingly, WoS decides it's best to ignore cases made on him since they're clearly all made because of "bias", and are "misrepresented" on purpose. I'll be interested in seeing how he reacts to this. Note how he at the end again, tries to get gumshoe looking into someone else than himself. On November 05 2013 03:28 WaveofShadow wrote: Rayn, Where you at? Don't like the pokey-pokey. I want your help to lynch some scum. I thought we were supposed to be working together to achieve a greater goal here? Remember when he said he was providing content and was going to give more of it? Yeah... by asking others to do it, appareantly. On November 05 2013 03:36 WaveofShadow wrote: Ok so my own accounts of my own filter are subjective. That's a real eye-opener, thanks for pointing that out! Does it make me scum? No desire to read anything else of what I've written? Or talk about anything else? Jeez I can barely contain myself with all of this original, discussion-promoting and thought provoking content! Sure, Onegu's reasoning hasn't been good. I completely agree. I however wouldn't reply in a manner of just calling him down as much of possible and ignoring any points he may have tried to point out. Guess why? Trying to make a townie look bad intentionally is what it looks like to me. On November 05 2013 03:52 WaveofShadow wrote: See so that's where you'd say 'Hmm...as a town member who would like to win this game, maybe I should try to help my team figure out who the scummers are?' Which team doesn't care about who is scum and who isn't, Sn0? I forget. Shitposting for an entire day may not be lurking, but it certainly won't take you off the lynch radar in my eyes. Out for now, be back later this evening. Oh yes WoS. As a town member, would you finally help your team to figure out the scummers? I don't see that. | ||
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I will now catch up on any posts I may have missed in the meanwhile. | ||
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Pressure, pressure please. If you really think someone is scum, tell us why. | ||
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On November 05 2013 11:15 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am not reading Cephiro's post because even if WoS is scum i can assure you 90% of that post does not make WoS scum. Even if you think that you should read it even for the 10%. I admit there may be points (especially later on the case), where I am simply so sure in my read that they are a bit biased. If you honestly think WoS is not scum and my case is horrible, then point it out. That's why I posted it. I want people to look at it and see my reasoning why I think WoS is scum. If you agree, great, let's lynch WoS and hope that I'm right. If you don't agree, either tell me the flaws of my reasoning or provide me with a better target. Preferably not the latter one, as at least half of the players in this game currently can be made a "wishywashycase" off. Almost no-one seems to commit... | ||
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On November 05 2013 11:24 WaveofShadow wrote: Cephiro....I am not reading or responding to any of that. It is not worth my time. You're welcome to push the lynch as you please. Short ver for all the (censored) who can't read one long post. You should vote for WoS today, because he constantly tells how he will deliver and how he has provided a lot of content, yet hasn't really done so. He posts a lot, but he doesn't really pressure anyone. His excuse for not providing proper analysis is because he's afraid he might be wrong and it may get ripped apart. Read why this and many other reasons make him scum in my case. Do it. It won't take you that long, and it'll make you a better mafia player just by reading it. @WoS: If you truly are going to completely ignore all of that (I am extremely disappointed you are not even trying to defend yourself against the main points which are easily found.), then I promise I'll do everything in my power to get you killed. Even if you are scum, be kind enough to provide this content and tell me for example 2 persons that you think are scum, and give me a proper analysis and thought process as for why you ended up thinking they are scum and what makes them scum. | ||
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I can understand it's a long-ass case to read through, but please, even if you won't completely engulf yourself into it, show me the effort of skimming through it to understand the main points I am going at, at least. @gumshoe: Replying to you in a moment. | ||
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On November 05 2013 11:35 raynpelikoneet wrote: Cephiro how does what you just said applies more to WoS than to any other player in this game? Because there are several points where I show you the inconsistencies of WoS's own claims and his own play, rather than analyzing his play on a general level. It wouldn't be a proper case if I only looked at it from a general perspective. Even though at the start I do tell you a lot about how what is likely to be the case, it is because I want the reader to understand the point where I am coming from -> Why I see it happening from a scum perspective in general. I then provide a lot of content where I analyze single posts, or combinations of posts where many interesting finds are made. WoS has had a lot of posts and actions, which is why there are many things that can be applied to him uniquely. --> Example: Let us consider "Defending Van" a scummy thing. First we obviously reduce this into the pool of players that have defended Van. This is the general level, where we work with a general assumption. After this, we start looking at the players reasoning for defending Van, and the way they've interacted with him at an individual level. This is the important level, where we find out the inconsistencies or things that tip the scale towards a scum play. I hope you understand the point I am trying to get across here. | ||
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On November 05 2013 11:40 Vanesco wrote: So I will address my opinion's of Cephiro RIGHT before his massive post and then address the huge post. He comes into the game giving a vote and no real reasonings. He also hides many of his reads by saying he has secondary reasons for voting WoS and that he doesn't feel that his SEVERAL reads are worth sharing. I understand not wanting to share all of them but effectively the only read that seems obvious is that you are suspicious of WoS (before the massive post). It seems like the connection that me and WoS is all one-sided from WoS's filter POV. It seems like the only player you have focused on ever since entering the game has been WoS, as if you are tunnel visioning. And the connection between us is also only done from WoS's point of view. Is it also possible that he is scum and I am town and he is trying to find reasons for others to jump on me for an easy day 1 lynch? Or is it maybe possible we are both town and he had suspicions on me and is questioning my play? I also think that a day 1 lynch on WoS is not a good idea since most people have either expressed they think he is town, or have not given a read on him (I'm assuming for now those mean null). I thought before that WoS was a little scummy but since then he become slightly town for me. His frustration with Cephiro's arguments seem to be something that a fed up town would do. I think that most people in the thread will agree with me that there are targets that seem more suspicious than WoS. Maybe Cephiro is trying to deflect off of somebody that was being targetted? He seems very much to want to keep the discussion on mainly WoS and only WoS. Yes, I have several reads that I don't think are worth sharing. Do you think it's useful if I told my opinions on every player in the game, even if half of them would be nullreads? A read could be a townread, scumread, or a nullread, or anything between. Why should I concentrate on telling the thread that "Guiz, I'm not sure if X is town or scum"? There is no point for a town to do that. It doesn't provide anything to go by. I don't give a shit if you're unsure about someone. Come and tell me when you think that he's either town or scum. Preferably when he's scum, unless you have a good reason for defending someone to be town without 100% knowing their alignment. I want to discuss WoS of course since he's my biggest scumread. Your argument at the end is a blatant lie, as I have already said many times that I want others to share their reads about who are scum if they do not agree with me. Almost no-one has done that. Sure there are other possibilities. I may be wrong. However, how convincing is a case where I'd constantly point out possible flaws in my own thinking? I actually think I even did that at some points in the case. I'm not tunneling anyone, I am presenting my opinion and my reasoning for thinking that opinion. If I'm wrong, then I am. Then why don't you try to tell me WHY I am wrong, by either pointing out the way my arguments are flawed, or by pointing out other cases that point towards WoS being scum unlikely? Instead you decide to just straight question me and claim that I haven't thought of other possibilities. If I am wrong, tell me why I am wrong. If you think I'm scum, then continue whatever you were doing, but do it with real reasoning (like your first point about me not sharing my reads on other players, which I addressed.) | ||
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On November 05 2013 11:38 WaveofShadow wrote: Wow. I just fucking dodged a game of LoL by accident because I was all ready to type something to you and lost LP. Fuck this, Ceph. I have no desire to get into it with you at all. All it will amount to is a huge shitfest because I can already tell you will not have your mind changed at all based on the sheer zealousness of your case and your posting. You can cry and scream and threaten all you like. Go ahead, you can even spam the thread like Rayn. I will not be getting lynched today so you'd better start diverting your attention span elsewhere. I will be pushing my own lynches when and where I feel like, and am comfortable where my vote is right now. I am simply asking you to tell me who is scum and why. I'm certainly open to changing my opinion, but you are currently only giving me reasons for the exact opposite. Yet still I'm here, giving you a chance to share your reads with me and the thread, but you blatantly refuse. Tell the town why you think your scumreads are scum. Give us the reasons and the thoughts that made you think like that. If you continue to ignore this, reasonable request, I can't help but to assume you're a scum who doesn't want to give town anything to go by. | ||
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On November 05 2013 11:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: Cephiro to answer to your example about WoS: I don't think that's scummy at all. I had the same kind of train of thought about Vanesco that i see from WoS. Just because WoS did post his thought process in many parts does that make him scum? What's wrong in the thought process, i don't anything wrong with it - maybe i am biased because i thought basically the same at first and reached into similar conclusion than WoS did - but could you elaborate more on why the thought process can't come from a townie? I see your point. And I do not expect my read to be right based on one example only. It was an example only to get my point across to you. It's more about the amount of things that would be incredibly convinient for scum that happen, and the reactions of WoS that are in strong contrast with his own opinions of how a townie should play the game. Single thought processes of his could very well come from a townie yes, but looking at the whole history of his, I find it much more likely to be done from a scum perspective, for one reason alone the sheer amount of inconsistencies and his refusal to correct or address many of them. On November 05 2013 11:50 thrawn2112 wrote: Cephiro perhaps I need to be a little more clear. NOT ONLY do I not accept that scum are more likely to be inconsistent, I wouldn't be surprised if the complete opposite is true. Have you never missed a math question, have you never forgotten anything? Why would you expect someone who rolls town in an online forum game of mafia to be perfect? Townies aren't the ones who are constantly wondering if their story adds up, mafia are. You can point out as many inconsistencies in WoS's play as you like and I will never listen to you unless you can show me how the inconsistencies are specifically scum-motivated. You need to show a clear mafia agenda behind the fuck-ups, otherwise you've just gone and pointed out a bunch of things that can probably be found in every single filter in every mafia game. The other reason of why I don't like your case is because of the strong town vibes I feel while reading WoS's posts. I sense nothing fake/reserved/malicious/secretive about them. Alright, I very well see your point. I certainly don't expect townies to play perfectly. I personally just consider it more likely for someone that is constant pressure about being caught in a lie to be inconsistent in their story (especially the longer the story becomes), rather than for a townie that is simply telling the story as his opinions move forward. (Basically for a honest townie, the only inconsistencies come from if he doesn't care about what he said earlier, or forgot and does a sudden change of mind without reasoning, which is rare in my opinion.) Thank you for providing the reasoning behind your point though. I'm not saying I'm right or you're wrong, but we'll have agree to disagree on this one it seems. At several points in the case (in my opinion), I provided good thoughts as for why the inconsistencies are especially scum-motivated. That can't be said for every point, as there are so many things to be considered ambigiously. But I tried my best to show why certain things are in my opinion clearly done from a mafia perspective. | ||
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On November 05 2013 11:26 gumshoe wrote: I suggest rather taking a gander at the rats that scurried out right after my case, sno oo and onegu, what do you feel regarding them? Oh and sorry all if my posting quality will be lower tonight, phones are hard. Sn0_Man: Hasn't provided a lot. The way he plays ticks me off in general, but unfortunately his town play has a tendency to do that for me. I'm annoyed by the fact that he isn't providing more, and it's no excuse to let him live for longer. It's just when I have more content to go by and someone I am fairly sure is scum, I'd rather than lynch that person than someone who is close to a nulltell and hasn't provided much to go by. If I was unsure in my reads, I'd consider him a great target for at least pressuring. Posts like these are especially what I dislike: On November 05 2013 03:50 Sn0_Man wrote: MEANWHILE I have no actual idea who is scum so I'm making sure people don't decide to lurker lynch me  ObviousOne: His style of posting is very different from what I'd ideally like to see. However, I see him more likely to be town than scum currently. Even though there are some very non-committal jabs and useless oneliners in his filter as well, there are some good points that he raises up, and he tries to chime his opinion in most matters that are being discussed without seeming he wouldn't actually give a fuck. He's also very confident in his read on Sn0, and I like the fact that he keeps pushing it even though it has unfortunately been ignored to a big extent. Onegu: Hasn't done anything worth mentioning. First page of filter mostly random rambling on meds, and any "content" he may have posted is mostly one-liners. They're more like simple observations that he felt like pointing out rather than actually contributing. Again, unfortunately non-committal play with TL townies seems to an unfortunately common syndrome, but at the moment there isn't simply anything ticking me too much in the way or other. It just annoys me that he's not providing more content. Too null, wouldn't lynch yet. | ||
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