• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:07
CEST 15:07
KST 22:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou16Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four1BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Weekly Cups (March 17-23): Clem Bounces Back DreamHack Open 2013 revealed
Tourneys
$1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 INu's Battles #13 - ByuN vs Zoun Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Is there anyway to get a private coach? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BSL Season 21 OGN to release AI-upscaled StarLeague from Feb 24
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 300$ 3D!Community Brood War Super Cup #4 [ASL20] Semifinal B Azhi's Colosseum - Anonymous Tournament
Strategy
Roaring Currents ASL final Current Meta [I] Funny Protoss Builds/Strategies BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread The Chess Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Men's Fashion Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Certified Crazy
Hildegard
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1262 users

Frustrated, Need Mid-High Master, GM Please Help!!

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-27 23:02:01
January 27 2013 20:09 GMT
#1
Hi, This is the first time I have been truly frustrated with starcraft II. I just bought new gear and have been spending a lot more time laddering. I have reached a point where I think I am stuck. I am in the low master range but I just feel like I cannot get better without help anymore (practice just won't cut it). I feel like I am at least somewhat smart and some pointers would really be effective rather than figuring out what I am doing wrong on my own. So I am looking for help ASAP since I only really play on weekends.

I realize this is my own issue and many of you may help me because this community has a lot of nice people. I AM looking to find a way to get better and AM willing to even pay for analysis/ coaching. However, I cannot afford the rates of pros so am looking in the 5$-15$ an hour range with 15$ being a pro. If anyone is willing to help me out for free I would really appreciate it also.

http://drop.sc/299336
http://drop.sc/299213
http://drop.sc/299223
http://drop.sc/299213

http://drop.sc/299214

http://drop.sc/299216


The only match up I feel competent in is ZvZ, I feel something is fundamentally wrong with my ZvP and ZvT

Can anyone explain what I am doing wrong/ how I can improve? Since I am in high dia/master range I am looking for more specifics. Like my build, what i should be scouting, how i should react, do I need more hotkeys, do I need camera keys, how to improve multitask, etc.

Thanks alot!!

lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
January 27 2013 20:31 GMT
#2
Currently in teamliquid chat channel

3 people offered me lessons already so if anyone is free and can do 5-10 min really fast sample replay to see who i want to coach for long term.

Thanks again for fast responses!!
lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
January 27 2013 21:13 GMT
#3
anyone help me know? I can't play much on weekdays :/ Im online right now posting in teamliquid chat channel Name: bewby
dicedicerevolution
Profile Joined October 2009
United States245 Posts
January 27 2013 21:23 GMT
#4
Top masters here, I went through all your replays. The last two links are the same.

First off, let's focus on the positives:
-Macro seemed ok (~66, 53 drones @ 8min)
-Battle micro isn't THAT bad (concaves, focus fire)
-Good attitude (gg'd in the games, in-game chat was inquisitive and constructive).

Additional Comments
For reference, if a professional is playing completely passive and droning as hard as they can, they can hit up to ~60 drones and ~75 supply at the 8min mark, so you're not that far off. The difference comes from refined openings and sharp mechanics but again, you're pretty close and this is good.

Engagements are absolutely important to Zerg and especially if you're going mass unit heavy (e.g. roach/ling). In most cases your engagements were good, but be sure to always try to setup flanks and engage from as many directions as possible to give yourself the best chance. It's easy to forget this, especially if you're caught off-guard, but it's easily one of the best ways to play better. The catch though is that you cannot forget to macro. I'd suggest you try and sent a unit out to see where your opponent is moving out to, pick a favorable location to engage, split your forces up to converge on it, go back to macro right before the attack, and then attack and spend larva and inject during the battle.

As I can see while going through your replays, you did not succumb to negativity and were in good spirits even when you lost. This is probably one of the most important assets you can have. Now you just need a way to channel that positive energy to fuel your growth.




Now, one thing that stands out in the replay is that your build order isn't quite refined and what it's "going for" might not be ideal as you work your way up. That said, having a refined build order and "going for" the "right thing" are not necessary things to improve and win at your level of play. What this means is that while others may point you towards a different build order there are still things that you can work on here that would carry over to whatever build order you choose in the future.

However, I would make a small caveat and say I wouldn't recommend going hatch first vs. Protoss as you're very liable to get cannoned (if not now, then definitely later). A slightly modified opening like 14 pool 16 hatch would allow you to get lings out as needed and still keep you economically viable. If you do decide to change it, then I'd recommend taking double gas at 6:00.



Now, let's focus on basic themes for Zerg:
-You CANNOT be missing injects with these types of builds
-Scouting is necessary since you are playing passively and therefore reactive
-Ranged upgrades generally not recommended vs. Protoss
-Mass roach is fine for mid-game but transitions too slow/non-existent

Additional Comments
Roaches and zerglings are generally considered "massing units" as in you need a lot of them for them to be effective. This means several things: it emphasizes mechanics since injects absolutely cannot be missed since these units are so larva expensive, engagements must be taken carefully as losing a lot at once means you cannot replace them quickly enough, upgrades become very valuable since they can apply to so many units, and you need a certain amount of them to have a "critical mass" to be able to do something with them (which usually means your opponents needs AoE to counter that critical mass or lose). So in this manner injects become absolutely critical and macro hatch timings become very important to consider so you can maintain your army.

ZvP is very timing dependent, more so than in the other match-ups since it's not always possible to keep constant tabs on your opponent via attacking and there are so many timings that Protoss can do to Zerg. Among professionals there are varying styles (some scout more than others), but the common thread is that they always check for the gas timings at the natural. You're basically looking for the gases to be taken at 6:00. If the Protoss takes both, assume tech. If only one is taken, then it's a possible immortal/sentry. If neither are taken by 6:30 then you need to put your roach warren immediately in response as a gateway timing (either a poke with a +1 4gate or some variation OR a 7/8gate all-in). I'd further recommend that you sac an OL into his main at around 6:45 or 7 to get a scout on his tech. It's always a good idea to send your first 2 OLs in to scout the gas at the natural and one near the main to sac. You can do this even on 4 player maps, but it requires you to send them out in the correct positions first so you can rearrange them into position depending on the spawns. Note that if you do this you can't spot your natural for cannon rushes, but you can still stop them (but I won't be going over them here). These timings aren't fool-proof (there are builds that Protoss can do to fake gases at the natural, etc.) but they will get you started. Remember that you have the better economy so you want to see what the Protoss is doing, then react to it and maintain your economic edge.

As a general principle in all Zerg match-ups, if you're not getting melee/carapace upgrades and infestors, you're delaying your late-game transition and going for a huge mid-game attack/all-in. Now there's nothing wrong with doing this, but you absolutely need to be aware of the fact. What many professionals will do in ZvP is to go roach/ling to hold off mid-game timings and try to pressure the Protoss before they secure a 3rd. Once they see that the Protoss has successfully secured their 3rd (sim city is going up, they have the necessary unit composition defending it) they immediately thrown down a second evo and infestation pit, take a 4th, start upgrades, tech to hive while stopping roach production and poke around as much as they can with the army they have. If you do decide to go for a mass roach composition then you're essentially on the clock, trying to do as much permanent damage as possible (e.g. kill their sentries and non-gateway units, expansions, mining, tech, etc.) before they secure their 3rd and get out the army composition necessary to beat mass roaches (usually something like stalker/sentry/immortal/colossi).



lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
January 27 2013 22:05 GMT
#5
holy smokes, thank you so much for the analysis. I was starting to think no one was online

This helps immensely. like you said, my builds are not refined ( i sort of like experimenting like double upgrades against toss)

However, the reason why i posted is because I am diamond rank 1 and not even masters :O. I thought i don't have to be perfect to get into masters and I have been it before.
Henk
Profile Joined March 2012
Netherlands578 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-27 22:45:55
January 27 2013 22:43 GMT
#6
Could you suggest me one replay to watch; for example one in which you really felt like you did everything right, but still lost? (Studying atm, don't have time to watch four replays but procastrinating to watch one will be fine).

(because dicedicerevolution basically already explained the basics of zvp, I'll try to give you advice on a specific game instead.)
lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-27 23:01:48
January 27 2013 22:54 GMT
#7
anyone would help for specifics i dont remember which is which now , I just posted 4 that I lost recently

Ok I have looked over them and I would like u to look at http://drop.sc/299213


how the heck did i lose ((
pqzeus
Profile Joined January 2011
13 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-27 23:00:10
January 27 2013 22:56 GMT
#8
Without watching your replays, needecomputer, i generally applaud you for reaching tank 1 diamond without having a standardized build order, that must be tough.

Additionally, if your goal is to improve to high master and beyond asap, i suggest you best go to liquipedia or watch some specific youtube vids in which they explain you the standardized build orders for each Zerg-matchup.

Generally those would be:
ZvZ: 2 Base,(18 gas) Ling/Bling Defense into...
ZvT: 2 Base,4(or more) Queens into 3rd (2 Gas 5:30) (Queen/Sling Defense into...)
ZvP. 3 Base, Macro Hatch, 4 Queens (2 Gas 6:00) into... (Stephano into...)

Obviously my descriptions doesnt even come close to defining those openings and skips all standard scout timings and attack timings, but i just wanted to give you the rough outlines of what you should try to aim for if you want to open a Macro game in Zerg Matchups at High Master and beyond. Anything else or earlier Gas will put you behind economically and you should realize that and go for a big push, tech play or all-in. I suggest you use those hints and find yourself a build order which best fits your playstyle.

In my recollection, the fundamental hurdle for reaching master league was the understanding of the underlying principles of starcraft 2, just those rough gas timings i just told you, interwoven with the standard all-in or push timings of the enemy race and your own optimal unit composition all mixes to becoming one of the best players.
Add flawless execution and you got yourself a GM^^
lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
January 27 2013 22:58 GMT
#9
pqzeus, I do improvise when I play, but my openings are actually pretty standardized. I think my midgame is what is killing me... Thanks for the info, I will contineu to watch zerg streams.
Henk
Profile Joined March 2012
Netherlands578 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-28 00:26:51
January 28 2013 00:21 GMT
#10
Taking a look now; alright here we go. (I'm low-mid master zerg on EU, for reference.)

Early on: I really would encourage you to go 14P 15H or something. going 15H opens you up to cannon rushes and it's just annoying and a pain to deal with. Also I love trying to sneak in 4 lings in a toss base; if you go 14P and he goes nexus first he'll need to micro well to make sure you're not getting in with those. Also, I'm not sure why you're getting this many queens. I guess you love creepspread. Gas is on time; you want 2 at 6:00. One huge problem: you're not scouting his natural gases. He took 2 gases, which means you're safe for now, but if he didn't take any before 6:30 you want your RW down immediately, because gateway aggression could be coming. You're going double evo. Why? Who knows. Don't; unless you're going to hit some weird specific timing.

7:00 You're also floating 170 gas; you want to be very precise and spend your gas right away. Generally: Ling speed-lair-+1 range-roach speed. When you see 2 gas at his natural (thus 4 gases in total) you're safe to go lair before ling speed. Otherwise, go ling speed before lair. If he went DTs you would've been dead because you lair is WAYYY too late.

8:00. You have absolutely no idea what he's doing. Scout.

9:00. You finally make it past the middle-line. You have no idea if he went for a quick 3rd nexus, hell. He could be moving out with immortal sentry 15 seconds ago and you wouldn't even have known it. There's this awesome ledge on cloud kingdom next to his natural; place an overlord there.

10:30-11:00: You see his third. You take a 4th (good) but continue to make roaches and even take +2 range. Why would you do that? Roaches will delay your tech, and you know he's not going to attack right now so you don't even need the roaches.

12:45. You just start roach speed (lol). You have no infestation pit. one of your natural geysers has 0 drones in it, one in your third has 2. You haven't taken your gases at your 4th. You are dead.

I stopped watching here because the only reason you could win this game is if this toss fell asleep for the next 6 hours.

What you want to do is this; make sure toss takes his natural (you did that well, you scouted with your overlord). Then scout his gases at 6:00-6.30. Sac an overlord in his main around 7:00-7:30 to see what he's up to. Depending on what you scout, start making mass units once you have 57-60 drones (3 geysers, rest saturated mineral lines) unless he's 4gating you - you would know by the 4 early gates and the early chrono on his upgrades. If you scout he's not all inning you, do not make roaches. They will delay your tech heavily.

He takes a third - you didn't know because you didn't have a ling or an overlord pooping creep there. Once he takes a third, DRONE like a madman (up to 90 drones). You want to start your infestation pit right away and take all your gases. I then like to place down a spire, then go to hive. (To help deal with 3 base all ins by getting some corruptors out). Before the 3 base all in hits, you want to be spending all your minerals on drones and spines, and all your gas on infestors. You also want to be going double upgrades (melee/defense).

I hope this helped.
lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
January 28 2013 01:13 GMT
#11
^^ Helps a ton... for some reason I thought 2-2 roach corrupter wins games?? I guess I just havent been keeping up with the metagame.

Your comments about scouting are especially useful. However, I don't know where to put overlords and stuff (Ill look into it). Also, thanks for noticing I was messing up my gas stuff.

This is exactly the analysis I am looking for and would pay $$ so thanks for doing it free!! Cheers!!
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
January 28 2013 02:45 GMT
#12
Please read the strategy forum guidelines. Your OP does not contain sufficient self-analysis for a [H] thread.
Moderator
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
11:00
Mid Season Playoffs
Nicoract vs GgMaChineLIVE!
SKillous vs sebesdes
Solar vs Cure
WardiTV670
Liquipedia
Replay Cast
10:00
SC2's Safe House 2: Playoffs
CranKy Ducklings128
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
LamboSC2 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 11938
GuemChi 3686
Horang2 3157
Bisu 2786
Flash 1302
Hyuk 1282
Jaedong 1029
hero 693
firebathero 550
Mini 532
[ Show more ]
Soma 500
Light 331
ZerO 320
Stork 309
BeSt 296
EffOrt 292
Hyun 289
Soulkey 205
Snow 189
Last 181
PianO 107
Barracks 103
Killer 95
yabsab 91
JYJ85
Aegong 76
Mind 73
Rush 71
Pusan 66
ToSsGirL 66
Free 63
ggaemo 53
Movie 35
Sharp 33
soO 21
Sacsri 18
zelot 17
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
Noble 15
scan(afreeca) 14
ivOry 14
SilentControl 14
HiyA 12
Shinee 11
Terrorterran 6
Mong 1
Dota 2
qojqva1748
Dendi611
BananaSlamJamma233
XcaliburYe218
420jenkins173
canceldota68
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2110
x6flipin729
zeus726
oskar112
edward85
Other Games
summit1g6173
singsing2453
B2W.Neo668
hiko371
Pyrionflax199
Sick184
XaKoH 156
Happy145
Hui .110
Mew2King51
Trikslyr16
ZerO(Twitch)11
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL275
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 10
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1010
• Noizen43
League of Legends
• Jankos1939
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 53m
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
9h 53m
The PondCast
20h 53m
OSC
22h 53m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
Online Event
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs Soma
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.