EPTMuch love to the newbie twins (at least in my mind) s0Lstice + sciberbia. How come whenever I find one of you, the other isn't far off?
I Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
Much love to the newbie twins (at least in my mind) s0Lstice + sciberbia. How come whenever I find one of you, the other isn't far off? | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
On July 11 2012 06:57 marvellosity wrote: ... if all the people I've hosted/coached/watched from the Newbie games gang up on me, I shall be rather displeased D: You can't stop me marv! I've got tunnel vision and it's only for you! Now is it the good kind or the bad kind... | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
First things first, here is a list of games I've played in as well as links to my filters from those games. I think I'll be starting all my games with a list like this because it helps me improve. If I'm scum, I have to avoid playing closely to my scum meta. If I'm town, I put pressure on myself to make good reads. The list is spoilered so as not to take up too much space. + Show Spoiler + NMM XIV: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=240210 I was a Mafia Goon in this game. NMM XV: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340298&user=240210 I was a Vanilla Townie in this game. NMM XVII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344270&user=240210 I was a Mafia Goon in this game. NMM XVIII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345447&user=240210 I replaced into this game. I was a Vanilla Townie. NMM XIX: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347856&user=240210 I replaced into this game. I was a Vanilla Townie. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
Looking through his filter he seems awfully defensive about the plan he came up with. Let me state this so as not to cause confusion, I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself. I'm looking at his "Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan" post. It seems like a forced way of making some sort of analysis come from his proposal. He seems to think that so many people agreeing that it's a bad plan is bandwagoning of opinion, and thus scummy. I disagree, I think anyone can see that it's a bad plan and it would be a bad idea to agree with it, scum or town. He's shat up a bunch of the thread talking about his proposal or trying to derail the discussion towards it. I'll post more reads on players as they come to me. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
The case against talis isn't just that he came up with a half-assed plan. He's been really defensive all game and hasn't really put much effort into the scumhunt. If you look at his play from that light he seems pretty scummy. Just look at how many times he's defended himself without adding much to the conversation. @ Mattchew I have a difficult time making a read on Keirathi. Having played with him in previous games his town play has always been a little strange to me. My current understanding of his town meta is that he's not a very strong D1 player, but he gets better as the game goes on. I'd like to give him the BOTD based on that. As for sciberbia I'm a little suspicious, but I don't think we have enough to go on to get a read either way. I think we have better options for lynch. For now I think talis is the best option and I'm looking deeper into the cases made against austinmcc. These are the two best cases that I've seen. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
##Vote: talismania I'm off to work. I should be back in a few hours. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
You're misrepesenting what I said. Let's look at the reasons you find me suspicious. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. I never said talis's plan was scummy. It was a bad plan, but it wasn't scummy. He spends a ton of time after the plan is scrapped talking about it. That is what I find scummy. Not only that, but he takes the plan one step further and draws reads from the way people reacted to it. Drawing reads based on timing from a shitty plan that everyone-and-their-mother-can-see-is-shitty seems like a good way to gain steam for a mislynch. I didn't outline that particularly well so I can understand some confusion on your part. Also, at the time of the post you've outlined in section 2, I'd missed the part in talismania's "Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan" where he put pressure on austin. I didn't want to misrepresent him so I posted the edit. I still stand by my opinion that the pressure he's posted has been pretty weaksauce. He's talked about dropbear and austinmcc being scummy, but he's done very little to follow up such talk. IMO the pressure he's put on people has been "blending in" pressure rather than a real attempt at scumhunting. @ s0Lstice Yes, I have based some of my reads off of meta. You'll notice that all of my meta reads have been on players I've played with before. If I feel that players are getting flak for posting the way they've always posted, I'll say so. That was happening to both Keirathi and austinmcc so I tried to make sure that town knows that's the way they typically post. I don't see anything wrong with that. It gives the town more info about players and their habits, rather than less. You're right on one thing, I should familiarize myself with talismania's meta, which is something I will do now that I've gotten home from work. (They called me in on my day off, the bastards) Just a quick point. In no way does a player following their town meta absolve them of suspicion, but it does push them closer to a null read than a scum read. I'm looking for a player pushing a scummy agenda. Neither austin or Keirathi fit that bill to me. Talismania does. It's as simple as that. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
talismania- I've posted my reasoning before. He's promoted an anti-town environment. s0Lstice- When you've got no other reads just sheep the vets, amirite? No, but seriously, let's look at his reasoning for voting me. Miltonkram: I found to my sorrow that making a case on a town Talis is an easy thing to do. This also means that he is an attractive target for scum to harp on. I found Milton's reasoning strange. His filter is small, but there are several references to the use of meta. He uses meta to inform his reads on Keirathi, Sciberbia, and austin...but not his top scum read? I know for certain that the information he would find would be useful to him here. His case reads as phony, and I think there is a good chance he rolled scum again. And then let's look at his comments later on in the same post. Now talis, you asked about austin. Right now he is looking a lot like he did in his town games. There are no scum games for me to look at, so the meta argument only goes so far. He makes long posts with a lot of stuff that amounts mainly to filler, but he also plants a few nuggets of really good reasoning. This game his effort matches, and I feel he has made some good points on Risen. Him matching his town meta is only one piece of my view on him, and it's largely unnecessary. His actions thus far seem pretty pro-town to me. He demonizes me for debunking bad reads(IMO) on players based on meta, and then he attempts to clear austinmcc from suspicion partially using meta. True, he includes the clause, "Him matching his town meta is only one piece of my view on him, and it's largely unneccessary," but the fact remains that he's guilty of the exact same thing I was trying to do. Other than that I don't have much to add that other players haven't stated. At this moment I wouldn't feel comfortable lynching any other players. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
I would argue that discussion has moved along well despite the way talismania has been posting. I see where you're coming from, talismania's proposal did spark discussion. The fact that he's been so intent to keep discussing a dead topic could easily derail the thread away from scumhunting, or, in the case of his "Reaction" post, doing really bad scumhunting based off of a terrible premise. I'm not sure what you would like expanded on in that last comment you outlined. I'm going to look through previous games talismania has played to help inform my read on him. Is there something in there that isn't clear to you? @ s0Lstice I was jokingly making the point that I was sheeping marvellosity. I didn't mean to say that you were. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
My opinion on talismania will be updated. Before now, he'd done very little to make me change my opinion on him. Seriously, just look through his filter before his latest case on DropBear and austinmcc. That being said, his latest case is pretty decent and I will re-examine my opinion on him. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
Townie points for DropBear: - He has a clear, concise posting style. - He is forward with the few reads he has. Quick aside. These are very easy behaviors to imitate. I think DropBear is a good player and it's possible that he is manufacturing this style of play. Scummy points for Dropbear: I'll defend Milton for you He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM Vivax talismania He defends me. Unlike Mattchew, I find defending a player can be a strong strategy for scum. It makes a player look forthright with their reads in the short term, and, if DropBear ever flips red, I immediately get flak for the fact that he defended me. I don't think I've done enough to move beyond a null read for most players. DropBear's town read of me seems manufactured. Also, please note the section I've bolded in the post. In my experience scum will put up a false mask of confidence in hopes of getting townies to sheep their viewpoints. Statements like "you should be less obvious in defending your buddy" and "this because Vivax is scum (this quote is from a later post)" reek of putting up a false sense of confidence. I don't think any town player can be that confident in their reads at this point. I'd also like to point people's attention to DropBear's "defense." WOLOLOLOLOL nice OMGUS tali! So I'm aggressive? Did you forget Bastard 2 already? When I shouted and screamed to kill only 2 players the entire time I was alive? Plus the examples you give of me being disruptive and aggressive are just firm statements. How is strongly disagreeing being disruptive and trollish? And narrow focused? It's better to focus on a couple of people than splurge shit on EVERYONE like you have done wouldn't you say? Your case on me positively REEKS of being manufactured. Nope, I think DropBear's defense reeks of being manufactured. Labeling something OMGUS is a great way of defending something without actually defending the content of it or giving it credence. It's the same concept of defending oneself by labeling something WIFOM. I think DropBear has a really good chance of flipping scum based on these reasons. Please look into his play a bit more. ##UnVote: talismania ##Vote: DropBear I see the points being made in talismania's defense and I think I was guilty of a case of tunnel vision. By no means is he a town read to me, but I think DropBear is more likely to flip scum. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
@ sciberbia I would be interested in hearing your opinion of DropBear. @ s0Lstice Are you still in the thread? What are your opinions on DropBear? | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
Vivax's flip has me even more convinced that DropBear is scum. Why is it scummy that DropBear defended one town player from another? Think about the situation from my perspective. I know I'm town and now I know that Vivax is town. That means when scum saw Vivax attacking me, they saw one town player attacking another town player (with a weak case too IMO). It's the perfect time to gain town cred in my eyes by defending me, while also putting pressure on Vivax that helped lead to a mislynch. Furthermore, in the past I've shown a propensity for trusting players who have defended me, such as in NMM XV. I don't know if DropBear has seen it, but it's possible that he has and that he was trying to get me to repeat one of my past mistakes. I wouldn't find this nearly as scummy without the fact that DropBear seemed to manufacture a town read on me out of thin air. He called me one of his strongest town reads, but he never explained why I'm such a strong town read to him. If he was honestly trying to save/defend me, why hasn't he ever explained why I look town to him? Calling someone a town read, and then explaining your reasoning seems like a good town move. Calling someone town and then using it to further incriminate another player (Vivax) seems really scummy. Just think about it. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
I'll consider the implications of the marv kill and see what other reads I can make when I get home. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
Top scum reads: DropBear- I realize I've posted on him quite a bit. The case against him has taken place over several posts so in this post I'll just consolidate the scummy points. - He had a town read on me seemingly plucked out of thin air. - His defense against talismania boiled down to a bit of meta and labeling the case OMGUS. This is a really scummy defense. - He targeted Vivax, but didn't seem particularly invested in contributing to the case against him. - He made confident statements to the extent of "Vivax is scum." This is a common tactic used by scum to get townies to sheep them based on the confident tone. If anyone needs me to point out games where this has been true, I'd be more than happy to show you. DropBear is my strongest scum read. The rest of my scum reads are not nearly as strong due to the fact that most of them are partially based on meta. At this point I will not be happy with a lynch on anyone but DropBear. sciberbia- In his last few posts before the D1 deadline, he seemed to have been convinced that Vivax was town. Why didn't he try to organize a voteswitch off of him? There was likely support for it. I argue that he knew Vivax was town, but didn't want to get a voteswitch onto his scumbuddy DropBear. Furthermore I've always viewed sciberbia as a big picture kind of guy. As town, he's exceptional at seeing through minor inconsistencies, and instead finding behavior with a scum agenda behind it. During this game he's harped on players for minor inconsistencies, been fairly wishy-washy with his reads, and was lead to the Vivax case rather than the one leading it. These are all things I haven't seen from him. This case is partially a meta read, so take that for what it's worth. s0Lstice- His reasoning for voting me was pretty strange. His D1 play has also been a lot weaker than I'm used to seeing from him. Also in this post @Milton Yea I'm here for a bit more. I think dropbear is town for mainly the same reasons that Matt does. He has been fearless, and doesn't particularly care about the consequences of his actions. he completely ignores the scummy points I made against DropBear. A point that has been made against s0Lstice is that he was content not to scumhunt for quite a while D1. In the past he has sat back and directed conversation for quite some time before making his reads. I didn't expect s0Lstice's cases to be quite so weak as they were though. Mattchew- He disappeared at lynch time and hasn't committed to reads. This is bullshit. Actually, add him to the list of players I'd be happy to lynch. I can't help wanting to lynch him out of spite. I'm exhausted and I've stayed up way too late. I'm going to bed. Please for the love of god consider the DropBear case. | ||
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