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[G] PvT: Effective dt harassment

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Tombomb
Profile Joined June 2012
United States52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-16 16:45:09
June 25 2012 21:57 GMT
#1
Dt vs. Terran-harassing your way through the mid game
(sorry for long windedness )
Pvt (generally)-[/u][/u]
Early-game:
+ Show Spoiler +
Most commonly (unless you’re maringking or wish you were ☺), the flow of play consists of the terran player expo’g or 2 raxing, with the protoss player following suit and fast expanding or defending the 2 rax . But ultimately, both players are expanding onto two bases and the game goes to the mid game.


mid-game:
+ Show Spoiler +
Generally speaking, this is the most important part of the game for several reasons:
1) Both players are building their economy (workers), and are establishing the worker count that will remain for the rest of the game-i.e. this is the biggest opportunity either race will get to safely build workers before things heat up.
2) The terran player is on ~3 raxes (unless a 4-5 rax un-upgraded marine push is his follow up of choice, in which case his push will come out a bit earlier, but you’ll be able to defend with gateway units and good micro) with add-ons, researching stim/combat shield etc. with 1/1 possibly on the way as well. Once a significant economy is established, the terran player wants to add on raxes, which take ~a minute to build+addons (~a minute). This means a 600 min. investment that can’t be utilized for two minutes. We will call the point when this has been safely accomplished the late game
3) Players are looking to take a third. If the terran player takes a third, he forfeits much of his ability to be aggressive in the mid game. As such, he allows the protoss player to cut corners to the late game un-encumbered (TOSS PLAYERS WANT TO CUT CORNERS). This is bad news if you’re playing the average diamond player. Even worse if Liquid’Hero is your opponent.
4) Terran have a tech advantage with the combined fielding of stim and medivacs at this stage. Protoss players can hold a push of this type, but not in a very efficient fashion, and the average toss player won’t be able to take a third, and defend the terran’s 10 minute stim/med. Push.
TERRAN PLAYERS KNOW THIS.
Thus, the mid game often revolves around the stim/medivac push (~10 minutes), the follow up of which is usually some sort of multipronged drop attacks.

Allowing a toss player to get to the late game unencumbered is a death sentence. He’ll death ball you at about 16 minutes (usually most 3rd tier tech-paths kick in at about 14-15 for toss). Thus, terran players want (need) to do damage before the late game, hence the medevac/stim push’s popularity.

Late game:
+ Show Spoiler +
The game becomes pretty back and forth. Toss players are bouncing between Templar and colossus based armies while Terran players are bouncing between heavy ghost and heavy Viking production. And the name of the game is bases. Fun fun fun.



Premise:
+ Show Spoiler +
As armies grow, Templar tech is stronger and more efficient than colossi. Terran are more than able to mass Vikings in the mid game, shutting down colossus pushes with effective control (somewhat of a joke statement. Vikings are a 1a unit in a bio composition. They just shoot colossi. That’s their one job.). On the other hand, ghosts vs templar is a micro battle, thus, with better control/sneakiness/timings (if he doesn’t have ghosts/ he doesn’t know you have storm) toss can outplay terran in big fights much easier.
The problem is that Templar tech is more expensive and require more time than colossi:
Templar tech=Twilight (150/100 & ~1min.) + Templar archives (200/200 &~1 min.) + storm research (200/200 & ~2 min.s)+ (x)*wait time for Templar to get to 75 mana (25 seconds [although energy can be banked while things are being researched]=~0.5 min.s)+ (x)*cost of Templar (50/150)
Total: for one storm (x=1): 600/650 & ~4.25 min.s (this is the kicker, lots of time needed, and additional templar will cost 250 a piece)
Collosi=robo fac. (200/100 &~1min.) + robo bay (200/200 &~1 min.) + (x)*colossus (300/200+~1 min.)
*range (200/200 & ~2 min.s, if started when bay done should finish when 1st coll. Is out)
Total for one coll. (x=1): 1000/500 & 3 min.s or 1200/700 & 3min.s with range (given good macro/build order)

The math should speak for itself. Colossi are faster (I didn’t even factor in C’boosts (note-one chrono shaves ~10 seconds off any given build time), and as such, are more efficient mid game when armies are small. Additionally, storm is hard to utilize effectively when terran’s army is small, as he can more easily split his units and dodge your storm radius. The problem is that colossi are a tech path you will eventually need to abandon, which gives the terran another timing window of attack. These attacks (about the 14-15 mark, and can be anything from straight down the front 150 food upgraded bio to multipronged drops and and counterattacks on any of your three (hopefully by now) bases. They will likely will be aimed at denying your third, which can be a crippling maneuver, setting you back too far to recover before terran reaches a maxed late game army. Thus, if you go colossi, survive the mid game, get on a third and are about to switch to storm. And lets say you have a twilight council already (-1 min.), you still are without storm for ~3 min.s. Thus, going colossi effectively delays storm until about the 16 minute mark, which gives terran a window to kill you.


How do I solve this? Is there any other way besides teching.
+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, harass your opponent with well timed counterplays. My favorite method is with Dts.
Why Dt?:
Dt are incredible harassment units. They force a reaction, by default will cost the terran money (turrets and scans [which=mules[), and can often delay his 10 min. push. That’s not even considering the economic damage you will likely inflict. Furthermore, Dts stay relevant the entire game, and are very efficient during the later stages as they provide a powerful harassment tool that heavily stresses your opponent’s multitasking ability. Additionally, the time you buy yourself by going dt and harassing your opponent is enough to build up a substantial chargelot archon force, and perhaps even to research storm. The beauty of it is that it both buys you the needed time, and develops the tech path that is necessary to transition into this composition. You have already taken a lot of gas geysers and gotten a twilight council to get the dark shrine, and your harassment has bought you time to research charge, armor upgrades, and to get up a solid number of gateways (Note: 4 per base is a solid number for chargelot archon). You could feasibly just go for chargelot archon from the start, but by harassing him with dts you’ve taken the ball away from the Terran player, forcing him to be defensive, at a time when, in theory, the protoss need to be defensive. It delays your tech, but only to the extent that, for a short time, you are investing your money elsewhere. The switch into chargelot archon, takes about 2 minutes (140 sec. build time for charge, the longest build time of any of the upgrades/structures you’ll need, and you’ll likely chrono it a few times) and be started as soon as the harassment has begun. To put it simply, the transition just flows well, and gives you an early vice grip on the game’s pace.


Strong vs:
+ Show Spoiler +
Bio play (especially any gasless fast expands) and most Bio/tank play, though the concept of denying the 10 minute stim/medevac push doesn’t apply. I like to go for this when I see a gasless fast expands (as stated earlier), because it means that any early push he does will be un-upgraded marines, which can be held with effectively micro’d gateway units. Its also easy to predict his follow up from a gasless FE with gently poking the front. I.e., if you see marauders after he expands (or you’ve determined he’s going to), he’s probably going for a medevac push. If you see pure marine, no combat shield, he’s probably gonna push a bit earlier than that.
More on gasless FE from Terran→ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE
*Though I have had success with this build when facing a 1.1.1, I cannot endorse it, both because there are so many variations of the 1.1.1 and because the success I’ve had with it is probably more good luck than sound strategy.


The build order:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
The safest way is to go for a 1 gate/3gate expo (ultimately getting up to 3gates) with two stalkers (chrono the first one) to initially control the map and deny any scouting trickery. The 3 gates will allow you to defend any 6-7 minute pressure from your opponent. After getting your nexus started take your second gas in the main. Once you can afford it, throw down both a Robo and a Twilight Council (at the same time). Start dark shrine ASAP. This will give you access to dt.s at around 9:30. If you haven’t already taken double gas at your natural, now is the latest you can put it off (after starting the dark shrine). Try not to build more than 2 or 3 sentries (if you feel threatened) initially to save on gas. Maintain constant probe production, only cutting to put down a dark shrine, get an obs./cannon if banshees are spotted, or to make units/chrono gates in the event of an unexpected attack. Once a dark shrine is started, add a forge and 2 more gateways when you can afford to. Start charge and +1 armor when you can afford it. Once you have Dt.s, and are harassing, throw down a Templar archives, 3 more gates, and transition into chargelot archon, get the second armor upgrade before +1 weapons. Play out intuitively, thinking towards getting storm and setting up your third base.
Note: You want the robo for a warp prism, and getting it at the same time as your twilight allows you to produce an observer and a warp prism before your dark shrine finishes.
Note: In my replays, I get my robo/twilight before adding gateways (to get to 3). This is much riskier, but gives you access to dts about a minute earlier. IFF (if and only if) you are controlling the map well, you will see when he pushes out. This allows you to cut units (and corners) to get your tech up faster. Think about it, if you see marauders/ he hasn’t moved out with un-upgraded marines by 6 ish minutes, he’s most likely going for a ~10 minute timing push. As such, you don’t really need units until the 10 minute mark. And, given the warp gate mechanic, you don’t need to maintain constant unit production, at least where gateway units are concerned).

To put it more explicitly, at ~6 minutes:
+ Show Spoiler +
You are sitting outside his natural/have the xel’naga/ have SOME sort of inkling that he’s going for a medevac timing push (he hasn’t moved out yet, he has marauders etc.), you have a finished 2nd base and are working on getting it saturated. Warp tech is ~2/3s done and you are on 1 gate with both gases in the main. At this point, you’ll want to add your twilight, robo, and 2 more gates. Whether you start the gateways or the tech structures first is up to you, the risk/reward of which to get first is explained in other parts of the guide. If you feel threatened by what you’ve seen out of your opponent, go for gateways first. Either way, once you have 3 gates a twilight and a robo, add both gases at the natural, the whole time continuing probe production. Start the dark shrine once the twilight finishes, and play it out in the above described way from here.


Execution:
+ Show Spoiler +
This is a build you have to play out in a reactionary way. Once you are harassing, pay close attention to how your opponent reacts. This will determine when you are safe to add on gates, transition into storm, take a third etc. Basically, once you have begun harassing him, play the game out intuitively. Map vision is very important, things to watch for are early un-upgraded marine pushes, and quick 3rd bases.


The math behind the strat:
+ Show Spoiler +
1 Dt= 125/125
each Dt requires either a turret’s sight (100 min.s +scv building and NOT mining [~40 min.s/1 minute* 5/12 minutes (25 seconds ☺) build time= ~16 minerals)) or a scan (270 min.s lost=amount a mule will yield because each scan is a mule’s worth of energy out of an orbital)
-keeping these numbers in mind:
270 resources per scan, and 116 resources per turret vs 250 resources for a Dt
Even if you do not kill an incredible number of workers, you’ve still done a good deal of damage simply by forcing him to get detection.


How to harass:
+ Show Spoiler +
This is probably the most important part of the build (duh, it’s a dt build), but the intricacies of the harassment deserve some emphasis. You want to try your best to divert his attention. I like to drop 3 dts into his main, send 1 to the mineral field, 1 to a back corner on hold position (out of scan range of the mineral field), and 1 to his natural (if you have seen that he built a turret at the natural, as is a common thing for terrans to do these days, then send this 3rd dt to another corner of his base, perhaps cue up a few depots or add-ons as targets). The most important thing with this split-up method of harass is that you micro in such a way that he’ll need to drop >1 scan to deal with your harass. So, hypothetically, you hit his mineral line with dt 1, your dt headed to his natural sees the army move into the main. Send the natural dt to the natural mineral line at this point and begin taking out scvs. Be on the look out for any building turrets in both locations and delay these as much as possible. Once he has dealt with your first dt (main mineral line, he probably scanned it) and is moving to deal with his natural, send in the dt you’ve hidden and warp in a 4th into another far corner and a 5th outside his natural. You should have already checked for a 3rd base with a probe/obs, use the 5th to patrol the attack paths so you can weaken his army if/when he moves out without mobile detection. Its worth noting that ravens are good units to have in any Terran composition, and high level players have begun incorporating them into bio builds, especially if they see dt. Do all this, and you should force 1-2 scans, a few turrets (often in excess if your opponent is faint of heart), and have killed off a fair number of workers (5-20). So, for this example, lets say the total is 2 scans (540)+ 2 turrets (232) + 5 workers (250 & the future resources they could’ve mined) =1032 total resources lost. For 3 dts (750 resources total), that’s a pretty good trade, especially because you’ve denied him the future income of the 5 workers you killed. But, most importantly, you have bought yourself time and map control, both necessary to tech. Again, as protoss, you need more time to tech up to your big death ball style compositions, and effective harassment can buy you this time. As such, don’t fret if you don’t kill off an entire mineral line, or feel like you lost more than you killed, because half the damage is in the fact that his army had to be at his base for every second it took him to clean up your harass.


Things to watch for:
+ Show Spoiler +
-All ins:
This is often not the case, but every once in a while, upon seeing the dts, a terran player will pull all scvs and go all in. This is very dangerous. As protoss, when going dt, you will be at a supply disadvantage for a while just by virtue of how expensive dt are, both in the time the tech takes (dark shrine takes 100 seconds to warp in) and the cost of the individual units. Good players know this, and him going all can often kill you, especially if he already has a few medivacs out. If you see him go all in, use dt as much as possible to weaken his army as it crosses the map (he won’t hesitate to scan these down, so try and stutter them so he runs out of scans), use sentries to block the ramp as much as possible, and chrono your gate/cut everything else/panic mode etc. He’s all in, so if you hold with 10 workers you’ll probably be able to win the game regardless of how good mules are ☺.
-Doom Drops/multi-pronged drops:
If constant medevac production is maintained, by the time he’s cleaned up your dt harass, he should have at least 4 medivacs. Finesse minded terran players will try and come back from the damage you have inflicted by loading up and dropping your main. More sophisticated finesse minded players will drop your main, and counter attack your natural in an effort to split your forces. Neither of these should be a problem if you see them coming (have observers/dt out on the map constantly!!). You’ll have eight gates, which will allow you to defend most 1-2 medivac drops with just warp in rounds. Furthermore, chargelot archon excels at dealing with drops/multipronged aggression, and gives you access to feedback; with which you can just straight up kill drops, or at the least severely weaken them by denying his units healing.


The follow up:
+ Show Spoiler +
You’ve harassed him, taken a third, and defended any follow up he’s attempted. Life is good! Transitions are intuitive from here, you’re on three bases, which as any toss player knows, means you can do pretty much anything you want. So go carriers ☺ haha. But seriously, you should be in a good spot. Keep your foot on the gas pedal and keep up the drops, switch to zealot bombs vs dt to save gas, get warp prism speed etc. Switch to colossi tech, and get storm if you haven’t already. Get your death ball and wait for the opportunity to break the front.


What if he sees my dark shrine building?
+ Show Spoiler +
Terran players are getting better at scouting your mid game tech path, often through hiding a scv or by spending a scan on your main base. To avoid having your dark shrine seen before you’re ready to drop him, try and place it as far away as possible from your natural, as terran players usually scan near the cliff line dividing the natural and the main to see how aggressively you’ve expanded (and on higher levels, to get a rough probe-count estimate).
If he sees your dark shrine, you can go ahead with the harass and try and salvage the build as best you can, as you will have a significant degree of map control and your opponent will likely be pretty scared of what’s to come. Another completely viable option, and the one I’d advocate, is to cancel the dark shrine, take your third right there, and start a Templar archives and charge. Basically, get a faster third, and go straight into chargelot archon/storm. The thought behind this is that he likely will be turtling up a little longer than he planned, which buys you some extra time to get up higher tech paths.


Replays:
http://drop.sc/204600
Notes: + Show Spoiler +
Some things to notice in this vod are
1) the production of immortals, which you will have some spare resources for while adding tech structures/gateways. It can’t hurt to mix in a few of these, they will give you some extra counter to his marauders and some extra ability damage.
2) Storm is delayed, in favor of more archons/upgrades/immortals. With enough chargelots and archons (especially if you have armor upgrades for the zealots), you don’t need to start storm right away, but make sure to research it when you can. In the above game, I defeated my opponent’s army and won the game before I started storm.
3) Map presence is important, having and solid core of gateways (3-5) and good map control allows you to cut corners and tech faster. Notice my severe lack of units for much of the early/early-midgame.
4) Drop defense is worth the investment of a cannon and a Templar in the back of your main. Drops are prevalent enough that your main is more or less a second front, and a cannon, a Templar, and 2-5 zealots is the cheapest frontline force you’ll ever invest in. Its worth your while to make a habit of it. Drops are another reason why you want to maintain good map control/vision.


http://drop.sc/204605
Notes:
+ Show Spoiler +
1) There are variations in the number of raxes terrans will get off two bases, depending on how fast they are trying to expo/get medivacs. This game, my opponent invested in a quick 3rd CC, and goes for a much larger barracks count to defend his investment.
2) My harassment does very little damage (lets not point fingers as to whos fault it was ). However, while I did relatively little tangible damage, the presence of dts kept him in his base until about 13 min.s, at which point he’s invested in a raven and feels safe taking his expo.
3) I took an earlier storm (at ~12), and was less immortal heavy. I was also supply blocked at the time, which may have influenced the fast storm.
4) The placement of my main base drop defense was…just bad. You should protect your mineral line first. I also whiffed the probe pull, which didn’t help the situation either


http://drop.sc/204607
Notes:
+ Show Spoiler +
1) My opponent in this game is mid diamond while I am mid master. As such, things go very badly for him. While this isn’t the best replay to include, I felt it would be worth it show how the build works if you build 3 gates before the robo/twilight council.


http://drop.sc/207628
Notes:
+ Show Spoiler +
1) Here is an example of how to play out an early scout of the dark shrine. At the time that he sees the dark shrine building, it was ~halfway done. As such, he had more than enough time to react, and nullify my harassment/keep it to a minimum of effectiveness. He saw the warp prism pop out as well, further undoing my strategy. I anticipated that he would turtle up and wait for the harass to come. As such, I cancel the dark shrine, take a faster third (important!) and go straight into chargelot archon w/ storm. At least in this game, it worked like a charm.
2) Nothing wrong with a little gentle harass I any game. Zealots are expensive mineral wise, but gas is what’s going to matter a lot of the time, and efficient harassing (albeit easy for the terran to deal with in this game) in general is a good tactic in most situations. The warp prism is in my humble opinion the best unit in the protoss arsenal, I’d encourage all players to learn its ways. Watch players like Hero, White-ra, and Sase to learn some good methods of warp prism play.
3) Sorry about the BM on my part towards the end of the game. I don’t have a better excuse than I was annoyed that he scanned the dark shrine, and was put off by his remark after the fact. He probably had more reason to be annoyed than I did, but I felt like he should’ve seen the cancel coming, or at least suspected it.


Conclusion:
+ Show Spoiler +
This is another way to turn a time when protoss often have to defend into an opportunity to take control of the game. While there are many ways to go about this, dt is one that can set you up very well for the later stages of the game, if executed in the way I have described above.
I have had a lot of success with this build. It takes some getting used to, but I strongly advocate it as a way to be more aggressive in your PvTs.
I’d love feedback on the clarity of the guide and your experience with the build if you try it. I’d love to hear your ideas on improvements/optimizations you would suggest, although I will emphasize that this build is one that is meant to be somewhat reactionary. Part of its strength is that it is very flexible. As such, I have NOT ironed out the PERFECT time to harass the terran or the PERFECT time to take each gas etc. because that has the potential to lock you into an all-in ish style of timing attac, which, if thwarted, may leave you with no follow up. Basically, the build revolves as much around the harass, as what the harass allows you to do.
[Important] If your feedback is that you hate me for advocating a “cheesy” or “gimmicky” style of play I’m not interested. Those sorts of discussions are incredibly un-objective and do nothing to advance strategic understanding. Regardless of your opinion, these strategies exist, we all have to deal with them, and complaining about it doesn’t help you get better at StarCraft. Your boss may be a jerk, but no matter how much you tell yourself he sucks you still have to go to work everyday, and he’ll still ask you to work weekends (“ummmmmmm, soooooo, yaaaaaaa”). For all you “straight up macro game” players, carry on if that’s where your heart lies, but don’t yell at me cause I like leaving my base.


Regardless of your opinion, Thanks for reading!! :D

Update:
Part 2 of Day[9] daily 475
http://day9.tv/archives/
--> Game of Sase using Dt harassment, in a similar way to what is outlined above, analyzed and commentated.
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-25 22:39:23
June 25 2012 22:37 GMT
#2
Your reasoning of high templar vs. colossi is totally flawed. You can warp in templar and have them start gaining energy while storm is researching. Also council is 100 gas only, and 100 gas council + 200 gas archives + 200 gas storm research + 150 gas templar is 650 gas to get one storm, not 1000.

The reason you have to make colossi is simple, you need the robo to not autolose to banshees. Since you're required to pay a 250 gas "robo + observer tax" every game against Terran you are pretty much forced into going colo first, because you can't spend 250 gas on units that don't shoot anything and then go spend 650 more gas before you get a combat unit without getting rolled.

DTs can work, but you have to realize it's more blind cheese than it is a real strat. If you don't get a robo and obs, you risk autolosing to banshees. If you get both a robo and a council/dark shrine in the early/midgame, you're going to need to do a LOT of damage for him to not just straight up overpower you with more units. I really wouldn't recommend it with how most Terran players on ladder currently play. If he's going for a quick third base, you can do a lot of damage and he won't have enough units to counter. If he's doing any 1 base strat, or any 2 base timing, which is what 90% of Terran players do, you're just going to die. Even with no defense at home from the DTs he can just base trade you with the units he has after you spent all that gas.
philln12
Profile Joined October 2010
United States36 Posts
June 25 2012 22:57 GMT
#3
it is true you are being cost efficient most of the time yur making dts, but the hard part is doing enough damage and teching up to stop the medivac push with banked scans. Overall i agree about the main idea though, most of the time if executed correctly dts can definitely bring a game to your favor. Also wat xequecal said i also thought the same about the collusus vs templar.
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
June 25 2012 23:05 GMT
#4
Turrets cost 150 minerals...
Hello
Tombomb
Profile Joined June 2012
United States52 Posts
June 25 2012 23:21 GMT
#5
On June 26 2012 07:37 Xequecal wrote:
Your reasoning of high templar vs. colossi is totally flawed. You can warp in templar and have them start gaining energy while storm is researching. Also council is 100 gas only, and 100 gas council + 200 gas archives + 200 gas storm research + 150 gas templar is 650 gas to get one storm, not 1000.

The reason you have to make colossi is simple, you need the robo to not autolose to banshees. Since you're required to pay a 250 gas "robo + observer tax" every game against Terran you are pretty much forced into going colo first, because you can't spend 250 gas on units that don't shoot anything and then go spend 650 more gas before you get a combat unit without getting rolled.

DTs can work, but you have to realize it's more blind cheese than it is a real strat. If you don't get a robo and obs, you risk autolosing to banshees. If you get both a robo and a council/dark shrine in the early/midgame, you're going to need to do a LOT of damage for him to not just straight up overpower you with more units. I really wouldn't recommend it with how most Terran players on ladder currently play. If he's going for a quick third base, you can do a lot of damage and he won't have enough units to counter. If he's doing any 1 base strat, or any 2 base timing, which is what 90% of Terran players do, you're just going to die. Even with no defense at home from the DTs he can just base trade you with the units he has after you spent all that gas.


Thanks for pointing out the math error with the templar cost.
Getting a robo and twilight allows you to be safe from banshees, and yes, you need an observer if banshees are in play. I'll also say here that banshee follow ups to terran fast expands have become more popular.

However, and I didn't say this explicitly in the guide, I always get an observer out before a warp prism just in case. So, if you use this build, you'll still be safe against banshees. As far as the necessary observer forcing you into colossus tech, with good macro you can line things up really nicely so that you have a robo bay up shortly after your observer pops, but why can't the same be done with the dark shrine? Sidenote, robo + obs=175 gas.

Furthermore, i explicitly said that this a build that is meant to work, and be executed, against a fast expanding terran. I also warned against getting all-in'd by a terran player once he has seen the dark templar in his base. Also, the 2 base timing you are talking about (90% of terran players are doing it), is exactly what this build is aimed to un-do. You get dts in his base before that push is able to manifest, and unless he just goes for the base trade (which he will be hard pressed to win, as he'll eventually run out of scans and you can warp in dts at home), you will delay the push.

Lastly, I don't see a problem with spending the 650 gas on "non combat units". You can afford it economically off two bases just fine, and if you time it out right, you will be able to defend his push just fine when it comes. You absolutely do not need colossi to stay alive in PvT. There are other ways to defend the 2 base medivac timing (note: other than what I'm advocating here), and they don't all necessitate colossi. An easy one is to go for a lot of gateways off two base and hit him early (~7 min.s) with high energy sentries, force fielding and killing off enough of his army that his push will be weaker. I refuse to admit that colossi are necessary here. Even when turtling, I've had no trouble holding off this push with upgraded gateway units.
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Tombomb
Profile Joined June 2012
United States52 Posts
June 25 2012 23:22 GMT
#6
PH-
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Missile_Turret
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-26 00:29:23
June 26 2012 00:23 GMT
#7
On June 26 2012 08:05 PH wrote:
Turrets cost 150 minerals...


Cannons cost 150 minterals
Turrets cost 100.

@Tombomb : Nice write up. Some great tips there for people who want to try out DT's in PvT but don't know how to do it. (beyond make DTs, cross fingers)
dynwar7
Profile Joined May 2011
1983 Posts
June 26 2012 01:56 GMT
#8
"Vikings are a 1a unit in a bio composition"

Really? You have no idea do you? What about stalkers focus firing us? What about having the vikings focus fire colossi instead of just a moveing like your army?

Dont simply say 1a if you have no idea mate.
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
Masvidal
Profile Joined April 2012
Korea (South)213 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-26 02:25:59
June 26 2012 02:22 GMT
#9
On June 26 2012 07:37 Xequecal wrote:
The reason you have to make colossi is simple, you need the robo to not autolose to banshees. Since you're required to pay a 250 gas "robo + observer tax" every game against Terran you are pretty much forced into going colo first, because you can't spend 250 gas on units that don't shoot anything and then go spend 650 more gas before you get a combat unit without getting rolled.

Not true. If you go 2 Forge double upgrades into TC into templar archives for a heavily upgraded gateway army w/ chargelot, stalkers, storm, archon, all you really have to do is plant a couple cannons at each base and you can afford to delay your robo until you want to move out and either attack or take another base. You'll max before you're even on 4 bases; by that point, you can afford a robo and chrono out as many observers as you like. You can be 100% safe against drops AND safe against attacks with cloaked ghosts mixed in as long as you have good cannon and HT placement at your bases, and have a few cannons at the front of any attack paths for detection (which you only need long enough to feedback/kill the ghosts).
"Teamliquid is a place for starcraft, not boobs." -autoexec
Harbinger631
Profile Joined September 2010
United States376 Posts
June 26 2012 02:23 GMT
#10
You say Collosi are obtained faster, but they're not at all.

Robo facility+Bay+Ext Thermal Lance= 65 +65 + 140 (collosus are 75) = 270 game seconds
T Council+Archives+Storm = 50+50+110= 215 game seconds

So a short-range collosus is 10 game seconds faster, but they're a whole minute later than a storm before they become very useful. The cost is also higher (1200/700 vs 600/650), as well as supply (6 vs 2).
Tombomb
Profile Joined June 2012
United States52 Posts
June 26 2012 02:50 GMT
#11
On June 26 2012 11:23 Harbinger631 wrote:
You say Collosi are obtained faster, but they're not at all.

Robo facility+Bay+Ext Thermal Lance= 65 +65 + 140 (collosus are 75) = 270 game seconds
T Council+Archives+Storm = 50+50+110= 215 game seconds

So a short-range collosus is 10 game seconds faster, but they're a whole minute later than a storm before they become very useful. The cost is also higher (1200/700 vs 600/650), as well as supply (6 vs 2).


While the cost is higher than one storm (really one templar), once you start increasing your templar count the cost skyrockets. The same works for colossi.

I stand by the reasoning I used as far as timings go. With range, it is true that colossi are not faster, but range, while increasing their effectiveness by a HUGE margin, is not necessary for the purposes I'm describing. To make an effective offense, range is awesome to have. To defend the initial mid game push, not necessary. It would be nice, but colossi are a damn good unit without it. It is possible to have range for this initial push, as it is possible to get storm, but the point of this build is the harass. The harass weakens/thwarts/ at the very least delays the push giving you more flexibility in the mid game. It gives you breathing room and makes it possible to avoid turtling to develop a certain crutch tech path in time to defend an attack.

Thanks for the feedback though, you are right as far as the times and money go, but for the scenarios I'm addressing here I'm standing by my point.

"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Tombomb
Profile Joined June 2012
United States52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-26 03:01:35
June 26 2012 02:58 GMT
#12
On June 26 2012 10:56 dynwar7 wrote:
"Vikings are a 1a unit in a bio composition"

Really? You have no idea do you? What about stalkers focus firing us? What about having the vikings focus fire colossi instead of just a moveing like your army?

Dont simply say 1a if you have no idea mate.



Ok. So, I'm not trying to trash talk Terran. I know it sounds like that, but I'm not. "1a unit" was probably not the right phrase to use.

But regardless, they more or less are on attack move (maybe attack click on 1 of the colossi at a time [focus firing]) unless the TOSS PLAYER focus fires them (which is what you said), at which point you micro them away. The majority of this dance off usually happens before the true engagement, but during the true engagement, vikings only have one target, the colossi. The point I was trying to make is that a) Vikings are a damn good counter to colossi and b) more importantly, they're a pretty easy transition if you already have a reactor'd starport (which is what most mid-game Bio builds revolve around). And as far as focus firing and dancing away from stalkers goes, its a bit less intricate than EMPing/sniping templar.

Don't get offended, I'm just saying the countering colossi is not as involved at countering templar. Almost every time I go colossi, I feel like I spend the rest of the game catching up as far as the "rock beats scissors" race goes.

"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
jtixs
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom150 Posts
June 26 2012 19:44 GMT
#13
TLDR just go latetgame, toss so imba and ez.
Misconceptions to Mastery
Tombomb
Profile Joined June 2012
United States52 Posts
June 27 2012 02:02 GMT
#14
On June 27 2012 04:44 jtixs wrote:
TLDR just go latetgame, toss so imba and ez.


If you didn't put in the time to read the post don't waste my time and others by including your quip about the race I'm trying to help people get better at.

You're disrespecting the forum and everyone thats on here to learn, regardless of the quality of my post.
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
loko1275
Profile Joined June 2012
11 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 02:51:00
June 27 2012 02:49 GMT
#15
What is the terran already have 1 turrets to his natural, just see 2 vcs die at his main, send half army, scan, build turrets during the scan, keeps playing like nothing happenened ? I mean even if he lost 400 minerals, it's only 8 marines less for his 11min push, and i wouldnt trade templar nor colossus for Dts to hold this push, even with 8 marines less.

You basically say 1 dt is 125/125 and mule is 270 so it's a fair trade, i do not agree, mineral is really cheap as protoss whereas gaz is something you never want to wast.
freeshooter
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States477 Posts
June 27 2012 03:06 GMT
#16
Mmm... I don't fully agree with eventually needing to step away from colossi later in the game. Sure for a brutal "oh shi-" tech switch it's very effective. Colossi are not only viable, but also great all game long if you have the stalker numbers or maybe even phoenixes to counter vikings.

Or if you're willing to have both templar and colossi on the field, that works fantastically.
Tombomb
Profile Joined June 2012
United States52 Posts
June 27 2012 03:07 GMT
#17
you don't want to waste gas as any race, but your only spending 125 gas (which is a lot yes), but denying mules is very effective because that in effect will almost always put you ahead in economy, as chrono-boost allows you to have a higher probe count if you are on top of it. The point I was trying to make more than anything is not to fear if you feel like the Terran can brush off your harass, and was illustrating that in scanning down your dt he is suffering an economic loss.

Furthermore, if you make the effort (which depends on the level of the player executing the harass-DUH) to seriously micro the dts in his base, you should always be able to find something to attack. Be it a supply depot, add-on, anything, its still damage being done (often additional damage is done through the time you are costing him if he has to rebuild a key structure like an E-bay or a reactor).

Additionally, if you transition into charge-lot archon, a composition I would argue is time consuming more than anything, you need gas for archons, charge, and armor upgrades. This is expensive, but on four gas geysers, you should be fine even with the dt investment. Keep in mind that this transition involves an army that's bulk is mineral units (chargelots).

To be honest, I've never felt gas starved when using this tactic. Your point is valid though, you want to be able to do as much damage as possible because of the cost of dt.

Be brave sir! It takes a lot of turrets to blanket a base with detection. Find a weak point!
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Tombomb
Profile Joined June 2012
United States52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-27 03:24:45
June 27 2012 03:14 GMT
#18
On June 27 2012 12:06 freeshooter wrote:
Mmm... I don't fully agree with eventually needing to step away from colossi later in the game. Sure for a brutal "oh shi-" tech switch it's very effective. Colossi are not only viable, but also great all game long if you have the stalker numbers or maybe even phoenixes to counter vikings.

Or if you're willing to have both templar and colossi on the field, that works fantastically.


Yes! I love having both units in the mix, especially once the late game is at hand. I meant to put something in the guide about going double (or even triple) robo colossi as a transition once you've taken this strategy late game. 9/10 times though, I would trade my colossi for templar if I had to lose one of them. I am personally way more comfortable with templar/gateway compositions in Pvt, and truly believe they are a much better tech path. I feel extremely vulnerable when I turtle to colossi off two bases, and the build I am outlining in the guide is one of the ways I bypass that tech route/approach to the mid game.

To each his own, but my belief is that templar style compositions are stronger and save you the risk of being hard countered and KO'd by vikings relatively early in the game. A terran player could go for ghosts, but terran players don't always already have the infrastructure for ghosts, while any bio composition includes a reactor'd starport.

-I hope that is a thorough reply, I'm pretty sure I understand your point.

Update: By stepping away from colossi, I was referring to making a switch to templar with storm. This is a transition that I believe is necessary, and often requires you to cease colossus production for a short time. That was the "stepping away" I was referring to.
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10318 Posts
June 27 2012 03:25 GMT
#19
On June 26 2012 11:58 Tombomb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 10:56 dynwar7 wrote:
"Vikings are a 1a unit in a bio composition"

Really? You have no idea do you? What about stalkers focus firing us? What about having the vikings focus fire colossi instead of just a moveing like your army?

Dont simply say 1a if you have no idea mate.



Ok. So, I'm not trying to trash talk Terran. I know it sounds like that, but I'm not. "1a unit" was probably not the right phrase to use.

But regardless, they more or less are on attack move (maybe attack click on 1 of the colossi at a time [focus firing]) unless the TOSS PLAYER focus fires them (which is what you said), at which point you micro them away. The majority of this dance off usually happens before the true engagement, but during the true engagement, vikings only have one target, the colossi. The point I was trying to make is that a) Vikings are a damn good counter to colossi and b) more importantly, they're a pretty easy transition if you already have a reactor'd starport (which is what most mid-game Bio builds revolve around). And as far as focus firing and dancing away from stalkers goes, its a bit less intricate than EMPing/sniping templar.

Don't get offended, I'm just saying the countering colossi is not as involved at countering templar. Almost every time I go colossi, I feel like I spend the rest of the game catching up as far as the "rock beats scissors" race goes.



There's a significant difference if you attack and just move away to retreat and if you stutter step to chase and retreat with the max shots possible. It's hard to do but can make the difference between a colossus death or even more in a long fight. It's especially hard to do because you also need to keep your army split and make sure you handle the HTs.

But anyways, thanks for the guide, I'm considering playing Protoss.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
NMHU.
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada110 Posts
June 27 2012 03:36 GMT
#20
Gotta be honest, it sounds nice but these wall of texts got the best of me. My goal is not to be harsh but god this is hard to read. You should maybe think about paragraphing your guide. Other than that, welcome on TL, bro! :D
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