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On March 09 2012 03:21 Fan wrote:
OMG! That dashingly handsome rogue Mr. Wiggles has signed up for JubJub mafia! I hope more people sign up soon, so that I get to see his sublime and masterful play again! Maybe he'll do a shout-out to me... if he did, I think I'd die I'd be so happy! All that game needs now is more people! They better sign up fast, I'm too impatient!
Also, I bet the set-up is actually all VTs, and the no role flip is just to screw with peoples heads. :p
What happened to the traitors?
Also, when you say the game is capped at 20 players, do you mean that it's a 20 player game, or that that's the maximum, and if less people sign up we'll go with that and the game will be rebalanced accordingly?
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On March 10 2012 06:17 rgTheSchworz wrote:
Yes, I did read.
But put it this way:
If the ,, rounded up,, procedure applies, then scum can use all but 0.5 KP on special powers.
If there s 1 Godfather, then they can, for example, cover up their whole team as town each night.
Or frame the obv scummy ones till town implodes from mistrust.
My view: Somewhat broken.Daygame should be the most important thing in a normal mafia game.
rant ended
If I read the OP right, there are no roles such as GFs, Framers, and RBers. Instead, mafia have a certain amount of KP, and can spend it on powers instead of using it to kill.
While mafia KP is a whole number, i.e. 1,2,3...n, they get to use one .5 ability for 'free' without lowering their KP.
Let's use the number 2.5 for example, and take something like 5 total mafia, which is just off the top of my head. Then, the mafia get a choice. They can either use all three KP to make hits, or they can use 1 KP on powers, and have two hits. That gives them two hits, and two out of cover/frame/rolecheck/roleblock, which is pretty normal for most games, or they can reverse one role.
If they did what you said, using all but .5 KP on powers, then all they effectively do is make life harder for our blues, but at the cost of only having one actual KP to use. Sure, this makes it so that our blues are weaker, but it also severely lowers the mafia's ability to snipe blues/vets/dangerous players, meaning they'll stay in the game longer, and have more time to act. The longer the game goes on, the harder it is for mafia to stay hidden, so that plan is in effect a double edged sword.
So, in my example of mafia having 5 members, which is almost a quarter of the player base, if they want to have an effective KP, they can only use two powers, which is very normal for a game with that amount of players, in my opinion. This method of mafia actions lets them have more flexibility in what they do, and opens up more strategies, but also makes them somewhat weaker in terms of raw strength once the numbers get lower. i.e. They can't have a roleblocker/framer/goon left and still use both powers and have two KP.
I don't think it's broken.
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First, let me say I'm glad we moved away from that LaL, Lynch Lurkers discussion that always seems to get rehashed every game now. I don't think it does too much for us, so I'm happy you're talking about something else now.
Secondly, I'm unsure exactly where I sit on the declaration of PM targets. As far as I know, the only game that used limited PMs like this was the one (forget the name) that I played with BC, as scum. How that worked, was we tried to get as many people as we could to PM us, while saving our own PMs for specific purposes, and we made sure not to stack targets. BC managed to get a whole bunch of people to PM him merely on the basis of being a vet, and he used that to completely screw the town. More than half of the town was talking to him, and not many of them knew that others were, which was a problem, when BC used that to leverage reads from people and tell others who to push and generally misdirect the town.
So, as I see it, there's both advantages and disadvantages to declaring who you're PMing with. Off the top of my head:
Advantages:
-Stops scum from completely spreading out their PMs, as we can see who's talking to who, and they don't want to 'waste' them, but will be forced to, or else we can use it to find scum.
-Stops any one player from gaining too much influence in the town, as we know how the connections between players are mapped.
-Scum already know who PMed them, this way, as people flip, we know who PMed scum as well.
Disadvantages:
-Makes townies talking to each other a lot weaker. For example, if two strong townies decide to PM each other and announce it, scum know they're both town, more or less, and will be sure to kill one off to stop them from forming strong analysis.
-Stops people from laying PM 'traps', that rely on a second person and the third person not knowing you two are in contact.
-Stops town 'circles' from forming. Ties into the first point.
Personally, I don't think we need to all announce who we're PMing with, so long as we're careful about it, and that's the problem. A lot of people are really dumb when it comes to using PMs, and get too comfortable with others and let things slip, or say things that they shouldn't, or let mafia influence their actions. I think the key is to just be honest. As a townie, you have nothing to hide, and nothing to worry about. Use PMs to your advantage. Use them to talk with other players, get a read on them, form analysis. DON'T use them though, to let someone else tell you what to do, or what to think. If you get uncomfortable, and think someone's trying to direct you, and maybe others, bring it up.
On March 11 2012 14:27 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 14:15 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On March 11 2012 14:09 gumshoe wrote:On March 11 2012 14:05 Mattchew wrote:
i will not be using the pm function until atleast day 2 or 3 when I have a better feel for everyone.
I will be announcing to the thread who I decide to PM with when I do, and if someone adds me I will announce that as well. I think we should all partake in this practice I dont think we should have to announce who were pming, but I do think we should all say when we have at least two people who have decided to pm us. Why? Because I dont think everyone should be pming the one guy who we all think is a great townie, everyone should have 4 contacts ideally, that way the spread of information is even and we have a better chance to gain more information as opposed to having everyone pming one guy. Of course that is optional and I wont suggest that you announce who has decided to pm you, just tell us when you have two contacts so we can keep the spread of pm lines even. I don't think that's necessary. It will be much more telling to see how PM lines form when left unattended by the thread. People should use their own judgment and not the wisdom of the "town". As far as being open with who you select, I can't see how that would be anything but pro-town. I'm saying it should be an option to privately open a pm, I might not want to announce the people I trust, i feel we shouldn't be considered automatically scummy because we dont announce who we pm, there are reasons to privately open a pm like say if your convinced the person on the other end is a blue and you want to talk to them about thier findings but you dont want to broadcast them to scum. Further more I wasnt asking we rely on the wisdom of town, I simply wanted people to announce when they've been contacted by two people and then we could know if it would be right to have that person posses a higher number of contacts than most.
PMs aren't for fishing for blues. That's not something you want to do as town, as role fishing is one of the tools scum use in PM to gain information and blue-snipe. Don't role-fish. Don't ask others to claim to you. If someone's trying to do this, they're probably scum. I'm going to repeat myself, be careful. PMs are great for town, but you have to be careful, and use them right.
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On March 11 2012 22:31 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 18:19 prplhz wrote:
Hey guys
I'm surprised that Jackal58 is openly advocating that people announce who they are in PM contact with immediately. It's somewhat okay when a guy like Mattchew hides behind the "more information for town"-mantra, but I expect more from Jackal58.
If player A and player B are in contact with each other and they're both town, then why does the rest of the game need to know this? Scum can shoot into people to prevent town circles this way (as Mr. Wiggles already pointed out) and that's pretty bad. You are just giving scum extra information.
The PM mechanism is a town favored mechanism and we shouldn't be so afraid of it as everybody seems to be. We should instead encourage people to use it wisely. Fear mongering such as "Oh, BloodyC0bbler used this in some game to kick town's ass so lets all be afraid of PMs" is harmful, while "Be ware that people might be scum, don't just trust them because they're in PM contact with you. Use your brain." is a lot more useful for the single townie and for town as a whole.
Also, Mr. Wiggles advice on "state in thread when someone rolefishes" is bad. Use your brain. If a guy asks you for his role then there's no real harm in that, both townies and scum would benefit from it. If he insists on you telling him his role while you're trying to talk about reads and analysis, then you can start getting suspicious.
I'm not going to announce who I'm in PM contact with, unless they're scum. Every townie who says that they're going to say in the thread who they're in contact with is making it less likely that other people contact them, which is a bad thing.
I'll probably write a list of people I think are going to be very active in this game and then RNG one of them and PM contact that guy. I didn't really decide yet. My advocacy is not set in stone. Hence why I asked for a dissenting viewpoint. The discussion is much better than the typical day 1 LaL/Lurker conversation we've all seen a million times already. Mr Wiggles - Why state the obvious in your disadvantages? Of course scum know who's town.
I said that mafia know "more or less" who's town, because there's a traitor in the game. So, they don't know 100% that anyone is town, and that they won't be shooting their traitor. Secondly, I never said that mafia knowing who town is was the disadvantage, I said that because mafia knows you're town, if they see you talking to another strong townie (who they'll also know is town), they can just shoot you and stop you from collaborating. In the first little bit of PMing, you're likely to be more wary of the other person while you try to establish a read, meaning that mafia can eliminate your PM threat before you accomplish anything, if you announce it. I'm not sure how you read that.
On March 11 2012 18:19 prplhz wrote:
Hey guys
I'm surprised that Jackal58 is openly advocating that people announce who they are in PM contact with immediately. It's somewhat okay when a guy like Mattchew hides behind the "more information for town"-mantra, but I expect more from Jackal58.
If player A and player B are in contact with each other and they're both town, then why does the rest of the game need to know this? Scum can shoot into people to prevent town circles this way (as Mr. Wiggles already pointed out) and that's pretty bad. You are just giving scum extra information.
The PM mechanism is a town favored mechanism and we shouldn't be so afraid of it as everybody seems to be. We should instead encourage people to use it wisely. Fear mongering such as "Oh, BloodyC0bbler used this in some game to kick town's ass so lets all be afraid of PMs" is harmful, while "Be ware that people might be scum, don't just trust them because they're in PM contact with you. Use your brain." is a lot more useful for the single townie and for town as a whole.
Also, Mr. Wiggles advice on "state in thread when someone rolefishes" is bad. Use your brain. If a guy asks you for his role then there's no real harm in that, both townies and scum would benefit from it. If he insists on you telling him his role while you're trying to talk about reads and analysis, then you can start getting suspicious.
I'm not going to announce who I'm in PM contact with, unless they're scum. Every townie who says that they're going to say in the thread who they're in contact with is making it less likely that other people contact them, which is a bad thing.
I'll probably write a list of people I think are going to be very active in this game and then RNG one of them and PM contact that guy. I didn't really decide yet.
What the hell? How's there no harm in someone asking you for your role? Why would another townie want to know your role, or more importantly need to know your role? If you're a townie, and you're rolefishing, you're just being dumb. You look like scum. Scum love to rolefish, because it lets them shoot blues for free, without the town having any idea why that person was shot. I completely fail to see why asking someone if they're a detective, or a medic, or whatever, is good for town. If you're a blue, you're really a VT. As soon as you tell people you're blue, without coming out in the thread, you compromise yourself, and you should be aware of that.
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On March 12 2012 03:05 Jitsu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:01 layabout wrote:On March 12 2012 01:37 Jitsu wrote:On March 12 2012 01:29 layabout wrote:+ Show Spoiler [ tedious LaL crap] +On March 12 2012 01:20 Jitsu wrote:
What do you think it means?
Accountable means subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something; responsible; answerable.
If a player lies, and can't do the above, we kill him.
If he can justify it, and it's a logical and clearly visible motive, we don't.
Why do you think a player who lies shouldn't be lynched? Is it you're opinion that lying isn't Anti-Town? Town lie all the time. Town make illogical moves all the time. Town play anti-town all the time. But if we think they are town we do not lynch them. So, a player that is, according to you: 1. lying 2. playing illogically 3. playing anti-town ...has the potential to not be lynched because we might think they are town? No. That person will be getting my vote, and I will be doing what I can to push for their lynch, especially if those three things come up. You can do whatever you want with your vote, I guess. The steps to overcoming the belief that town players will do what is best for town1. Click on this link2. Scroll down 3. When you reach the playerlist click on Toadesstern and rgtheschworz 4. Read through both fliters, paying particular attention to the numerous lies both of them make 5. Discover that townies lie, play anti-town and play illlogically 6. Apologise to layabout Jitsu, being able to guess whether or not a player is town or scum is quite difficult even if players are all acting sensibly. You have to learn to deal with the additional complexity introduced by players playing poorly, illogically or even against their own win condition. I don't have to click that link, because those were the two people I was thinking about from Arkham as well. Part of me thinks that they were allowed to run rampant around because they weren't held accountable for the shit they did. If I remember correctly, RGTS made it alive to the end, or close to it. Instead of him, would you think town would have benefit from someone who didn't spout lies every other post? I certainly do. So again, just because townies lie, don't think logically, and play anti-town, yes, I, and I hope you, will hold them accountable for that.
If you know someone's town, or strongly believe someone to be town, why would you kill them 'just because'?
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On March 12 2012 03:15 Jitsu wrote:
If I know or strongly believe someone is town, then I will put them on my ignore list, if they are cluttering up the thread with useless things.
I can also tell you I won't "strongly believe" someone is town if they are playing anti-town.
Alright, so long as we're able to differentiate between bad play and scum, then we agree.
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Caller, do you actually have any other reasons to vote DrH besides that he said 'pro-town', and that you want to and think that there's no downside to doing so? Also, I don't see why there'd be no net loss from killing him if he's town, as from my own experience, he's capable of scumhunting.
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Are you three (Curu, Caller, prplhz) communicating together already? In the space of twenty minutes, all three of you come out with similar cases all on Jackal, and then prplhz thinks the first person was Curu, when it was Caller. Based on the name at the top of the post, and the content of the post, it's pretty hard to mistake what Caller wrote for being Curu. This looks pre-meditated. What gives?
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On March 12 2012 08:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Why on earth would scum all make the same case on the same guy in the same time and not just defer it to one person? What a stupid thing to call out, it doesn't mean anything it's just a bandwagon. Mr.Wiggles do you really find it that suspicious?
I read it as prplhz knowing that Curu was going to post something on Jackal, so he just called it out without actually reading the post. Caller could or could not be a part of it. It just looks weird to me.
On March 12 2012 08:33 prplhz wrote:
Caller had written short derpy posts so far and then I just saw a big post with Jackal58 in red and I expected a lot more from Curu. I'm never very confident in anything I do, probably just a character trait, so I got giddy when I saw somebody else agree with me and I didn't read his name properly.
I just thought what you thought too by the way, but think it over.
Ok, so if you read the post, how could you think it was Curu? The whole thing was pretty much about how Jackal's been responding to Caller, and how Caller was making a crappy case for DrH's lynch. There's even parts in it about how you posted about Caller. The whole thing was written in the first person, too. Like I said, it looks weird.
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On March 12 2012 11:36 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 09:14 jaybrundage wrote:
Matt lurking as mafia is a completely viable strategy. I dont think we should let it be.
Putting the threat of a lynch to lurkers forces them to contribute. Simple as that.
I think the jackal case can hold some merit. However i will hold my vote for now. I would like to see how he responds How would you like me to respond? I called bullshit on Caller and He does an OMGUS which is enough for the two biggest Jub Jubs in this game to jump on board with. Caller spouted bullshit, I called him on said bullshit. And then he spouts more bullshit.
Who do you want to lynch?
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On March 13 2012 05:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
How does Caller thinking a scum would defend another scum make him scum? Maybe I'm not following your logic.
Jackal, roleclaiming was unnecessary. If there is no claim to the contrary I'll believe you. Dreamflower is a pretty specific role and I doubt there is more than one in this game as opposed to something like medic or veteran.
We need to reconsider the business surrounding prplhz. His play is poor but it's not particularly scummy and the attempt to pin someone as scum for making a similar case around the same timeframe is ridiculous and comes off to me as a hamfisted attempt by scum to start a bandwagon. The fact that it took makes me even more sure it's scum originated or backed.
Wiggles is the first to jump on it, doing nothing in the game besides talk about mechanics/town strategy (at great length) until this point I'm surprised his first attempt at hunting scum is so forced and illogical. The fact that prplhz made a case near the same time period is inconclusive, might perhaps implicate that he is town talking to curu or caller in PM but hardly mafiaesque.
Jitsu is the only one who voted for him and he's already been in the hotseat. This is the most alarming event in this thread to me. The Caller vs VE deal is really coming off to me like an ensuing tragedy of townie vs townie.
See, the funny thing, is that I never actually wrote, or even implicated that they were all scum. I just wrote that prplhz calling Caller Curu and then Curu coming out with his own case right after looked like it was planned, and asked if they were communicating about it because it looked weird to me. In fact, the first person to draw the implication that I was calling them all scum together... was you.
On March 12 2012 08:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Are you three (Curu, Caller, prplhz) communicating together already? In the space of twenty minutes, all three of you come out with similar cases all on Jackal, and then prplhz thinks the first person was Curu, when it was Caller. Based on the name at the top of the post, and the content of the post, it's pretty hard to mistake what Caller wrote for being Curu. This looks pre-meditated. What gives?
On March 12 2012 08:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Why on earth would scum all make the same case on the same guy in the same time and not just defer it to one person? What a stupid thing to call out, it doesn't mean anything it's just a bandwagon. Mr.Wiggles do you really find it that suspicious?
On March 12 2012 08:47 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 08:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Why on earth would scum all make the same case on the same guy in the same time and not just defer it to one person? What a stupid thing to call out, it doesn't mean anything it's just a bandwagon. Mr.Wiggles do you really find it that suspicious? I read it as prplhz knowing that Curu was going to post something on Jackal, so he just called it out without actually reading the post. Caller could or could not be a part of it. It just looks weird to me. Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 08:33 prplhz wrote:
Caller had written short derpy posts so far and then I just saw a big post with Jackal58 in red and I expected a lot more from Curu. I'm never very confident in anything I do, probably just a character trait, so I got giddy when I saw somebody else agree with me and I didn't read his name properly.
I just thought what you thought too by the way, but think it over. Ok, so if you read the post, how could you think it was Curu? The whole thing was pretty much about how Jackal's been responding to Caller, and how Caller was making a crappy case for DrH's lynch. There's even parts in it about how you posted about Caller. The whole thing was written in the first person, too. Like I said, it looks weird.
So now, it looks like you're trying to set up a possible lynch on me, by saying that I've been posting only about mechanics and town strategy, and calling that post a forced and illogical attempt at scum-hunting. However, it was actually yourself who attributed my post to calling them scum. Funny, isn't it?
Hey, look! While I was writing, you did it again:
On March 13 2012 05:43 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Player A: He made a reading error! He's scum!
JubJub: That makes so much sense....we better lynch him. Only scum would mess up their posts because they have the advantage of coordinating with a team that tells them what and when to post!
I'm assuming that I'm player A, but again, look at how DrH is trying to misrepresent me as calling prplhz and Curu scum, when I didn't write anything of the sort.
How long was it going to be before you tried to make a push for my lynch?
On March 13 2012 05:51 Kurumi wrote:
My Rattata and I need friends.
I am voting for the person who put the least effort into voting Jackal and this is Node. It's D1 and I don't want to lose him. We can verify his claim at any time.
Also
Jackal's Town: He gets roleblocked. Mafia loses 0.5KP every Night.
Jackal's Scum: Thanks to basic math we might work out that he is lying about roleblocks.
I don't think that will work. Jackal will claim roleblocked every night, and we won't be able to tell, because scum can use a cover, and if Jackal claims RB, we wouldn't know the difference.
Also, just to point it out now, the OP implies that the mafia are in possession of KP roles. Each member of the mafia contributes .5 KP, and there's 4 mafia. That's 2 KP to start. The cover ability costs 2.0 KP. That means, that mafia are not naturally able to use the cover ability in conjunction with a kill unless they recruit the traitor without losing any members, which seems unlikely. That implies to me, that the mafia are likely to have some sort of vigilante role, so that they actually have the option of using the cover to hide a kill in the game.
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Caller, why haven't you actually been pushing for Jackal's lynch if you want to kill him?
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Caller, you're accusing VE of setting himself up to look good no matter what the outcome of the lynch is, but isn't that exactly what you're doing as well? You're trying to set up a day 2 lynch without even knowing the result of this one, nor any night flips. Also, the lynch you're pushing for, is if we mislynch, again something you accuse VE of doing.
On March 13 2012 05:27 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 05:15 VisceraEyes wrote:
So Caller, you're saying that my strategy as scum is to wait until town is getting ready to lynch my scumbuddy Jackal and then come in and defend him. When he's about to get lynched. That's your "working theory".
I tried that once, and it was in Hammer Mafia. I'll NEVER do that again. I'll admit that I could be wrong about Jackal - but I would NEVER do that as scum again Caller. Ever. You're an idiot if you "think" that's what's going on here.
The fact that you "think" that's what's happening here only solidifies what I already suspected.
Everyone needs to be voting for Caller. Look at this scumslip. He already knows what Jackal is. I can think of one reason why. I specifically said that no matter if Jackal is town or mafia that you're setting yourself up to reap the reward of knowing ahead of time what Jackal is. As a result. I'm trying to stop you. You're saying that you had previously defended a mafiaso and you're never doing it again. The trouble here is, you're defending Jackal. So you therefore seem to know that Jackal is NOT mafia, and since you know his role DAY 1, this leads me to conclude that you're... Its quite simple: we lynch Jackal. If he comes up mafia, hurray. If he's not mafia, VisceraEyes must be mafia.One last thing: I don't use "think" and "theory." More false doubt... more mafia tactics.
DrH, are you still around? What do you think?
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On March 13 2012 09:43 Node wrote:
##Unvote Jackal58
Change of heart, Node?
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I'm going to vote Caller for now, I need to do some stuff, and I'll read over before day ends. We have two hours, right?
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So we could have become cannibals if we lynched someone? Well, that sucks.
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VE, Palmar says you two talked for a while in PMs. What did you end up talking about?
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On March 14 2012 07:06 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 07:00 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
VE, Palmar says you two talked for a while in PMs. What did you end up talking about? Mostly arguing about whether or not I should roleclaim to him. I asked him a few questions designed to help me determine his alignment, but those all flopped because he refused to read the thread at the time...something about being at work and hating effort.
Ok, I was wondering if you actually talked about the game or not, and things like reads, because then your altercation in the thread would be pretty revealing. Hopefully Palmar confirms.
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Jackal, is your dreamflower role compulsive?
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On March 15 2012 06:24 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:58 EchelonTee wrote:On March 15 2012 05:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On March 15 2012 05:22 EchelonTee wrote:On March 15 2012 01:14 Caller wrote:On March 15 2012 01:04 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
I'd like to say that Caller PM'ed me saying he believes I'm a traitor.
I'd also like to say I am not a traitor. This leads me to believe I've been framed. Or maybe Caller's just being stupid. Probably the first one though.
And it makes sense to frame me because I'm lurking this game , EZ suspicion.
(Also, page 38 isn't working for me in school, it's blocked due to what I would believe is too many images? So I'll read that page later.) Wait what? did caller actually pm sentinel, or is someone lying? No sir. 1. It makes utterly no sense to frame you, and I don't even think scum can frame someone as traitor. 2. Caller is implying that what you said makes no sense, or is false. I'll wait to see what he says Well fuck you're right... any other explanation or should I start turning on Caller?
Sentinel, why do you make no sense at all? If Caller believes you're the traitor, it probably means that he thinks you're the traitor based on your behaviour, not because he's a detective/is in contact with a detective. I don't get how you're making the logical leap to that. =/
Kurumi, you've already claimed, so would you mind explaining exactly how your role works and what it does? I've tried searching it up, but I can't find anything specific, and it doesn't mean your role is the same.
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EPT
