|
That meme is some good stuff. I love you Jackal.
So, let's get this ball rolling, then.
I'm not sure I want to comment on Lurkers or anything yet. Looking at the player list, I think everyone will have a decently good job of staying active enough to contribute to a pro-town atmosphere. No one really stands out to me as a lurking player, so enough of that.
Also, this is going to be pretty much a direct rip from my first post in Storm. It's something that I think should set the mood for town discussion.
I hate liars, unless there is a clear and logical reason to do so (blue prolonging his anonymity, ect.), anyone lying should (and will) be 100% held accountable for the actions they decided to run with. Does anyone in anyway disagree with this, and if so, why?
I will hold myself to the same standard, and anyone who is found blatantly lying, crossing stories, anything of that sort is going to be pushed by me, and i'd like to assume that the majority of the town players can agree with me on that.
|
What about lying in PM's? In what situation would you use it? Can you logically and clearly explain you're reasoning to the rest of the town when the lie is brought out to the forums?
If yes - yes, I would be ok with that.
If no - no, don't lie.
Simple.
Again, calculated lies are something that could potentially have high risk/low reward. Remember that as well.
|
I could roll with that, Jackal.
|
Well, at least everyone can agree on the accountability of people trying to lie.
Sup Sheth. Another game we play.
Why won't you reveal who you Mason up with?
From a town perspective, I can't see any real harm of letting people know who you are going to mason up with. I think scum and town can both benefit equally from using PM's, but scum benefit exponentially better if they can float PM land by masoning weaker players and trying to manipulate them.
|
On March 11 2012 17:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Rock solid case Caller, I'm glad you're bringing some cool logic into this game.
PM should be used as a tool to pressure and harass your scumreads imo not to setup town circles unless you have an investigative role or some means of entrapping scum/confirming people with it, it's better to bring the pressure directly to scum where they can't just ignore it like they can in the thread. if someone is going around and using their PMs just to buddy up with people and try to gain trust, I would think of that as being highly suspicious right away. the goal of a townie is not to prove they are a townie.
at the end of the day a policy of "lynch anyone who doesn't claim pm targets" would be ridiculous so as usual it's up to an individuals discretion. i don't think scum have a huge incentive to hide who they are PMing especially considering it would only bring more scrutiny on them
100% disagree with you. The goal of a town player is to prove their innocence just as much as it is to find scum. If a townie can effectively prove that they are innocent, it does a few things.
1. It doesn't give Town room to speculate whether or not that player is innocent or sinister.
2. It can add legitimacy to their reads, however, it doesn't mean that everything they say is law.
3. It doesn't give the opportunity for mafia to throw speculation against that player.
I think a case can be made both ways for revealing who you PM. I'd be more concerned if I saw BM masoning with gumshoe then DocH.
I also don't really buy into the fact that if someone is blatantly lying, they won't be punished for it. You hold people accountable for the actions in the thread. Period.
|
What do you think it means?
Accountable means subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something; responsible; answerable.
If a player lies, and can't do the above, we kill him.
If he can justify it, and it's a logical and clearly visible motive, we don't.
Why do you think a player who lies shouldn't be lynched? Is it you're opinion that lying isn't Anti-Town?
|
On March 12 2012 01:29 layabout wrote:+ Show Spoiler [ tedious LaL crap] +On March 12 2012 01:20 Jitsu wrote:
What do you think it means?
Accountable means subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something; responsible; answerable.
If a player lies, and can't do the above, we kill him.
If he can justify it, and it's a logical and clearly visible motive, we don't.
Why do you think a player who lies shouldn't be lynched? Is it you're opinion that lying isn't Anti-Town? Town lie all the time. Town make illogical moves all the time. Town play anti-town all the time. But if we think they are town we do not lynch them.
So, a player that is, according to you:
1. lying
2. playing illogically
3. playing anti-town
...has the potential to not be lynched because we might think they are town?
No. That person will be getting my vote, and I will be doing what I can to push for their lynch, especially if those three things come up. You can do whatever you want with your vote, I guess.
|
On March 12 2012 02:01 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:37 Jitsu wrote:On March 12 2012 01:29 layabout wrote:+ Show Spoiler [ tedious LaL crap] +On March 12 2012 01:20 Jitsu wrote:
What do you think it means?
Accountable means subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something; responsible; answerable.
If a player lies, and can't do the above, we kill him.
If he can justify it, and it's a logical and clearly visible motive, we don't.
Why do you think a player who lies shouldn't be lynched? Is it you're opinion that lying isn't Anti-Town? Town lie all the time. Town make illogical moves all the time. Town play anti-town all the time. But if we think they are town we do not lynch them. So, a player that is, according to you: 1. lying 2. playing illogically 3. playing anti-town ...has the potential to not be lynched because we might think they are town? No. That person will be getting my vote, and I will be doing what I can to push for their lynch, especially if those three things come up. You can do whatever you want with your vote, I guess. The steps to overcoming the belief that town players will do what is best for town1. Click on this link2. Scroll down 3. When you reach the playerlist click on Toadesstern and rgtheschworz 4. Read through both fliters, paying particular attention to the numerous lies both of them make 5. Discover that townies lie, play anti-town and play illlogically 6. Apologise to layabout Jitsu, being able to guess whether or not a player is town or scum is quite difficult even if players are all acting sensibly. You have to learn to deal with the additional complexity introduced by players playing poorly, illogically or even against their own win condition.
I don't have to click that link, because those were the two people I was thinking about from Arkham as well. Part of me thinks that they were allowed to run rampant around because they weren't held accountable for the shit they did.
If I remember correctly, RGTS made it alive to the end, or close to it. Instead of him, would you think town would have benefit from someone who didn't spout lies every other post? I certainly do.
So again, just because townies lie, don't think logically, and play anti-town, yes, I, and I hope you, will hold them accountable for that.
|
If I know or strongly believe someone is town, then I will put them on my ignore list, if they are cluttering up the thread with useless things.
I can also tell you I won't "strongly believe" someone is town if they are playing anti-town.
|
Hmmm, looking at it again, I think prphlz's reason to vote for Jackal is a much larger amount of bullshit then Caller's. For instance, you point out that he is using things such as
Instead he is pushing it in a very meek way with his "forgive me" and "sir".
That yells sarcasm to me a lot more then it screams scum.
Wiggles brings up a good point. prphlz is a player that wouldn't just happen to miss the name of someone that posted. It's almost like prphlz was waiting for Curu to post something, realized he fucked up, then tried to cover it.
It's not surprising that prphlz mistakes Curu for Caller, and then 10 minutes later, Curu ACTUALLY comes out with a small little case against Jackal as well.
Shit reeks.
##vote prphlz
Also,
LayAbout, are you still looking at jaybrundage?
|
Instead of calling it sleeping, why not look at the fact that prphlz came in, assumed caller was curu, agreed with caller even stating it was curu...
And then, low and behold, Curu actually does come in and post case against Jackal.
I'm not a fan of odds and probability, but seriously. I actually can't believe people are buying a bullshit excuse that prphlz just guessed Curu made the post our of everyone else here, and then Curu suddenly makes a post on Jackal.
I have a midterm. I'll bed back later.
|
On March 12 2012 15:01 Bill Murray wrote:
jitsu, what are your thoughts on layabout's alignment this game?
I'm going to tie this into the response to ET's case against me, because I think it's important to note.
I read you're case, and broke it up into two sections. The first section is a case against me that I am spewing bullshit about Lynch All Liar's policy. Whether it's useful or not to town isn't the issue. I believe it is, and when enforced, can be powerful too. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't matter. My intention was to come in, set the tone, show that no bullshit was going to be taken, and then continue on.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316574¤tpage=9#169
At this point, I was essentially finished talking about Lynch All Liars. I stressed my point many times, and felt that it was enough and didn't need to be reopened. You say that I continued to talk about the LaL policy up.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316574¤tpage=9#175
Layabout comes in and questions my reasoning on the matter, which turns into a large (albeit un-needed) blowout about two players opinions on how the game should be played. The snowball grows and we continue to bicker. Mr.Wiggles comes in, asks me a final question, and I think that's the end of the topic of LaL.
Also, ET, you're first quote...:
What about lying in PM's? In what situation would you use it? Can you logically and clearly explain you're reasoning to the rest of the town when the lie is brought out to the forums?
If yes - yes, I would be ok with that.
If no - no, don't lie.
Simple.
Again, calculated lies are something that could potentially have high risk/low reward. Remember that as well
...is in response to gumshoe. Go back and look at it. I didn't feel the need to add a quote because his post was one or two above mine, and was "easily" associated with it. It's not a continuation, it's a response. Don't make it out like it is.
Secondly, you say that my case on prphlz is flimsy.
How many games have you played? Have you ever mis-read the name of a player? It's generally the first thing I look at when someone posts. I don't "get all giddy and assume" that it's someone. You think prphlz would just go right by a nametag at the top of a post, and assume it's someone? Please. You and I both know he is better then that.
For example:
If I say, "Hey ET, nice case on Qatol."
And then you post your case on Qatol.
zzz...
How does that not give outside communication? Curu already say they weren't PMing, so that kills that reason.
As for LayAbout, I have no idea. I think he was more interested in trying to prove me wrong on the Accountability discussion then actually contributing to town. I've only played one other game with him, but that's something we can't discuss at this point.
|
I didn't call you out because it was pretty dumb vote in the first place, similar to Caller's gripe against me and gumshoe earlier.
I just ignored him, just like I ignored that.
|
On March 13 2012 03:44 Kurumi wrote:
I won't vote for Caller/Jackal58. This most likely leaves me with Jitsu. He fishes for Mason partners and advocates Town lying, while his first posts were about how good the town atmosphere is going to be. If so, he isn't doing anything to make that happen. This is pretty bad. Although, I am a bit reluctant to vote for him, just a gut feeling.
As for people who made cases today, You get something like +1 point for being Town or whatever, I just find it more likely for scum to join on bandwagons than creating cases themselves - I mean, why would they put themselves in a hard situation?
We have a lot people who haven't voted(me included). D1 might end in a no-lynch. I'll rethink some things and maybe come up with someone.
Even if some extreme lurking happens, I don't want to lynch a lurker, Mafia rarely lurks and if they do, it's because they suck.
Thanks jaybrundage. Your response looks really good in my eyes, but I disagree with Jackal as scum.
I thought of the Mason thing. I reasoned that in a game with PM's, I couldn't foresee the need to have Mason's in the game, so I called bullshit.
I'm done bringing the issue of lying up, again. If that is all you gleaned from my first ten posts of the game, then nothing I say now will change it.
|
I thought you were referring to town Masons as a role, not the PM mechanic. I thought that since there was a PM mechanic, there would be no reason to have Mason roles.
How would I fish for it if I voted for prphlz after Curu denied having PM contact?
|
On March 13 2012 05:08 EchelonTee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 00:38 Jitsu wrote:On March 12 2012 15:01 Bill Murray wrote:
jitsu, what are your thoughts on layabout's alignment this game? At this point, I was essentially finished talking about Lynch All Liars. I stressed my point many times, and felt that it was enough and didn't need to be reopened. You say that I continued to talk about the LaL policy up. Also, ET, you're first quote...: <quote> ...is in response to gumshoe. Go back and look at it. I didn't feel the need to add a quote because his post was one or two above mine, and was "easily" associated with it. It's not a continuation, it's a response. Don't make it out like it is. I say that you continued to talk about the LaL policy because... you did. you spent almost 2/3 of the day cycle on the topic when it really should only be talked about briefly, if at all. The fact that that quote is towards gumshoe, and not layabout, does not change the fact that your only contributions to the thread was this policy discussion that doesn't even really relate to any people in the thread. you said somewhere that first goal of town is to look innocent: I feel that you're taking that knowledge in mind as a mafioso and trying to look pro-town, when you're really not. Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 00:38 Jitsu wrote:
Secondly, you say that my case on prphlz is flimsy.
How many games have you played? Have you ever mis-read the name of a player? It's generally the first thing I look at when someone posts. I don't "get all giddy and assume" that it's someone. You think prphlz would just go right by a nametag at the top of a post, and assume it's someone? Please. You and I both know he is better then that.
How does that not give outside communication? Curu already say they weren't PMing, so that kills that reason.
I don't think I have EVER seen a legit case built off of an fn posting mistake. prplhz just has a severe case of sheeping; he sees the red text, he wants to follow teh leader. you're also heavily implicating a prplhz-Curu scumbuddy connection, without providing any basis for it except for "no one could possibly misread a name". if you wanted to build a real case you would have done more work on prplhz' other posts, but of course, you don't want to do that. Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 01:21 Curu wrote:
Get off Jitsu. There is no reason for Mafia to spew something stupid like that if him and Jackal are opposite alignments.
1. Jackal Town Jitsu Mafia = why protect Jackal with something dumb right now, should just go with it and let us case formers take the fall after flip
2. Jackal Town Jitsu Town = can explain his actions
3. Jackal Mafia Jitsu Town = can explain his actions
4. Jackal Mafia Jitsu Mafia = can explain his actions
In scenario 1 Jitsu could easily be setting himself up for a good D2 mislynch: "see guys I knew jackal wasn't mafia. let's kill prplhz, he was a big sheep on that case". He didn't exactly proclaim Jackal's, nor confront the more solid cases against him, so it's not like he's "protecting" jackal that much at all. To me it looks like he's putting in the seed of a case that he knows won't germinate until later. Scenario 4 I could see happening, but I see Jitsu as way more likely to flip Mafia. The train of people voting for Jackal screams bandwagon. I'm not changing my vote.
First of all, there is a difference between responding to people in the thread when they ask me something, and continuing to talk about something that doesn't help the town. See what you are doing right now? You're responding. It's a main component to conversation, or discussion. Coming up with a bullshit case that I kept going on about "policy" when I tried to reiterate a large number of times that instead of enforcing a policy, we should hold people accountable, is putting words in my mouth. If anything, you're bringing this shit up more, after "2/3 of the Day Cycle" is actually up, since the last time I spoke of it was five hours into the game. Stop trying to dramatize shit and make it look much worse then it actually is.
Secondly, I could care less if you have never seen a posting mistake lead to a lynch. That's part of the reason there's no editing in forum mafia. Right? But then again, you come to the attempt of trying to be aggressive, by saying I don't want to do any work. Is it better then coming out and making a case that is 100% incorrect? Yes. I think my point is an extremely valid one, more so then a simple "He was answering other peoples concerns about his idea, so he must be scum."
JubJubJubJub.
Everyone is saying that Jackal's case was based on meta. He's playing very similar to how I saw him play in Storm. He flipped town. That was one reason I didn't vote for him.
|
Jitsu, you're doing a good job of attacking the attacker instead of defending your actual reason for voting. I'm surprised that after allt hat has happened int his thread your best reason to vote for someone is that they mistook two names that look similar
I have defended it. There's nothing more I can really say to it. It essentially comes down to if I think prplhz actually misread something, or not. I don't think he did. I think it was a slip up in timing. Sorry if you don't feel similar. I don't think I would sheep my vote onto Jackal, because I didn't think he was scum. I legitimately think that the timing error was a real fuck-up. What more do you want me to say?
On March 13 2012 06:08 prplhz wrote:
Like, Rattata is a pokémon. A rat pokémon. A rat is a traitor.
"Me and my Rattata needs friends" sounds a lot like you're the traitor trying to hint to scum that you're the traitor.
You see what I'm saying? I'm not willing to consider that you're just saying this because you're insane and polish.
That's interesting. I actually hadn't thought of that, and was wondering the same thing.
On March 13 2012 06:18 Pandain wrote:
im detective
dafuq.
|
On March 13 2012 06:34 Kurumi wrote:
Since when a rat is symbol of traitors , shouldnt it be something like snake? Like, Seviper or Arbok ? Wrong. I am the best Rattata trainer around.
As far back as I remember it, it is.
|
On March 13 2012 06:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:37 Jitsu wrote:On March 13 2012 06:34 Kurumi wrote:
Since when a rat is symbol of traitors , shouldnt it be something like snake? Like, Seviper or Arbok ? Wrong. I am the best Rattata trainer around. As far back as I remember it, it is. Rat is more cunning than treachery. In Egypt rats meant wisdom.
Obviously you have never been involved with the Corrections system.
|
On March 13 2012 06:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
What do you want me to say before you respond? You didn't explain your claim or your vote. If you're just trolling then yes you deserve to be ignored completely.
Lynch Jitsu. The WIFOM concerning Jackal will sort itself out at night right? So why are we lynching a claimed blue right now? It's not something mafia can even fake it would go down in history as the worst fakeclaim ever
You criticize me for making a bad vote on someone because I think I catch a scumslip, and you push others to lynch me based on...what? The fact that I think I caught a scumslip and you don't?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
