EPTIts a 12 person setup
Is there any chance you'll extend it to 15?
Mr. Wiggles Mini Mafia I
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
Its a 12 person setup Is there any chance you'll extend it to 15? | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
Lynch all Liars is actually extremely mafia friendly. Contrary to popular belief, they don't need to lie. It means they can push townies much easier. (I was mafia in Steamship. Poor Chaoser.) That is not to say that lying is ok, quite the opposite, but it should be a factor, not the leading cause. Let's avoid policy lynches, it's too easy to end the discussion once a lynch candidate has been found, and if that person was up there because of policy, discussion is essentially minimalized. Other things we should probably discuss- Pressure voting: Pressure is fine, pressure voting doesn't accomplish much, and only serves to start a bandwagon that shouldn't exist until a proper case is formed. Voting should be reserved for people you explicitly believe to be scum. Pressure somebody, and then if they don't respond correctly, use that as part of the reasoning to throw your vote on them. Tunnelling: I believe it to do more harm than good in many occasions, but it can be useful in getting scum-slips out of tunnelled scum. As long as the person is aware that they are tunnelling, and is willing to stop doing it to weigh in on other lynch candidates, it's fine. Veterans: We should make people stand purely on the effort they put into this game. Taking a veteran meta into account only seems to have promoted sheeping in recent games. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 24 2011 00:34 Misder wrote: Lynching lurkers may usually hit a townie, but it does a number of crucial things 1) Gives incentive for greens to participate 2a) Pressures mafia to post more 2b) Mafia posts more = More likely to make mistakes 2c) Mafia lurking is a normal strategy for a lot of players Lynch all Liars is not mafia friendly. Fine, mafia don't need to lie to win, but they can (and they will if we eventually do a massclaim). Also, town doesn't need to lie either. Look at the tradeoffs: mafia MAY hit incorrectly, causes town to become confused, mafia also has incentive to lie. If people are allowed to lie, mafia has so many more strategies. Pressure voting I like, but its up to the player. ofc you vote for someone you think is scum, not town. Bandwagons give a lot of information. Tunnelling is up to the player. It's not usually effective unless you are skilled at it though from my experience. Veterans, we don't have I'm pretty sure. Lynching a lurker, especially on day 1, is essentially a cop-out. Active people will reveal themselves to be scummy via what they say and do, and there is much more information to be had if an active person flips. Lurkers are better targets for vigilantes, especially since they might have been up for mod-killing anyway. Even if we don't have a vigilante, lurkers don't have very much town influence end game, and can make for great dt targets if they continue to do the bare minimum, so it's very easy to remove them later into the game. As time passes, you can seperate the actions of town/mafia lurkers slightly because mafia have an agenda. On lynch all liars, it's very hard to conclusively prove that somebody lied. If you spend time trying to do that, that's time you could have been spending on real scum hunting. Additionally, if a person is scum and caught lying, there are going to be other things that point towards it. Which leads me to- the lie shouldn't have to be the whole argument on somebody. If your town, and you really feel like you have to lie, have the pros and cons well and truely thought out before doing so. I don't condone lying by any means, but I've played scum against a LaL town, and it really felt like it was a field day. If we allow easy bandwagons, it's promoting an anti-town atmosphere where people don't feel like they have to explain everything they do. Pressure voting is bad because it's too easy to start a bandwagon, and doesn't really accomplish anything. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote: RE: GiygaS No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early! You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice. And the last objection you have to me: my asking people about day 1 lynches did indeed generate discussion. See this post: And this one: One last piece of policy: Do not use 'ploys' or 'traps' to bait scum members. If you choose to disregard this, at minimum have fully thought it out. This involves but is not limited to being able to prove that only a scum member would walk into it, and that only a scum member would react the way that the person did. Make sure the pros outweigh the cons, and be ready to prove it. Intentionally making your self look scummy is an example of a 'bad' ploy, because good townies should be calling you out. That said, it did help me two things I want to point out so far: On December 23 2011 20:32 Dirkzor wrote: /confirmed I agree with the no policy lynches.[1] Everything should be accounted for and done on a case by case basis. But with that said I don't like people lurking or lieing. Both things are something you learn as a child is bad - well maybe not lurking =) - and the mafia are the bad guys. Do we have any veterans in this game? Given i've only followed a few games here on TL mafia I can't see any that spring out at a vet? Correct me if I'm wrong please. However I do believe that people should look at what happens in this game and judge on that. No reason to say "But sir, he was very good in..." When he have done shitall in this game and caused several mislynches. This is my first game playing Mafia. That said, I will try not to sheep and try to make my own opinions. I WILL win this! =) (Hahaha no meta for you guys  )[2]About lynches and/or No lynches: I would rather lynch someone i might think is town to get a lynch then to get a no lynch. It gives information and it helps town. On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote: I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it! Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you. ##Vote sephirotharg 1) He agrees policy lynches are bad, then doubles back and votes someone for potentially lurking later on in the game. 2) Calling attention to his inexperience. FoS | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 24 2011 07:50 GiygaS wrote: What do people think of Seph voting for himself? Cause I have no idea how to handle this :/ Null, don't consider it as him having voted unless it's still there at lynch. On December 24 2011 07:56 Shraft wrote: You may not vote for yourself. It is clearly stated in the voting rules. On December 21 2011 08:54 Mr. Wiggles wrote: 4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 24 2011 08:05 sephirotharg wrote: Whoops. I should recuse myself at this point from the game - modkill me please, and replace me. I didn't read the rules carefully enough, and edited one of my earlier posts to change some contradictory wording. Assuming hosts agree, I'll no longer be participating in this game for breaking the rules. Errr, that post was during signups, before the game actually started, so it's fine. You would get a warning first anyway. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 24 2011 08:10 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Errr, that post was during signups, before the game actually started, so it's fine. You would get a warning first anyway. Oh I'm an idiot. Loaded Shraft's filter for that, disregard the pregame stuff This is the post in question Tell us the differences between how it was originally and how it is now, as far as I can tell the edit was not malicious in nature, and would only get a warning. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
| ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 24 2011 22:13 Dirkzor wrote: I'll be gone for the rest of the day. We europeans celebrate christmas the evening of the 24th. I'll try to sneak away from the fantastic food to consolidate my vote in order to get a lynch - might just be a quick skimming trough the thread. I wouldn't mind a Seph lynch but i just don't like him to be the only target of the day. I wouldn't mind seeing jay hang either - thus my vote on him. minus_human still havent contributed which I really want him to! A few hours is apparently a day or so. Maybe he wanted to write days instead of hours.... could we get the Zbot going? Its harder and harder to follow where the votes are at Sephirotharg (8) Shraft Giygas Sephiroth Jaybrundage Adam4167 EchelonTee Grackaroni Hyshes Jaybrundage (2) Misder Dirkzor Not yet voted (2) minus_human Cyber_Cheese | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 24 2011 07:57 jaybrundage wrote: Hey guys, Sorry for not being to active. Internet is a commodity not always provided at my families house.[1] Ok lets get started. On policy lynches i think that there fine guidelines for how we should act and at the same time we should not follow them blindly and be the main reason we lynch someone. Onto the good stuff. I think that the sephirotharg case is an interesting one. I do find his first post suspicious. Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency. [2] I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest. You know people think your suspicious if not just plain scum. Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that. [3] ##Vote sephirotharg Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. [4] Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something On December 24 2011 09:58 jaybrundage wrote: Hm I find it interesting that you choice to vote for me. The Sephirotharg so called bandwagon is going so well because hes had some huge scum tells. If you dont realize this then you should reread his posts. I stated why i think hes scummy. You state its stupid but please do explain that. Dont you think its weird that Sephirotharg instead of defending himself that he just leaves? And the votes for himself just not to get modkilled however he knows people are voting for him but he ignores it. He is much more likly to be lynched at this point.[4] The part where he edited a post to appear innocent is pretty much nailing him the coffin. A townie would not have to be so conscious of his posts because he has nothing to hide. He then states at this point he would rather not play the game. He doesn't want to play the game because hes mafia that got caught day one. Kinda sucks but pretty good for town dont ya think.[5] And if you want to make a case on me go for it. So far you posted everything about policy lynches which is a great discussion starter. You have to move on sooner or later. You then vote for me with practically nothing. You claim i haven't contributed but all you talked about was policy lynches. On December 24 2011 10:02 jaybrundage wrote: T_T it wasn't a sheep vote this guys scummy as hell.[6] 1) I'm sorry, I haven't been around much 2) Lurking for any reason is not acceptable That seems like a mighty fine double-standard right there. 3, 4) About half of your reasoning is devoted to talking about how voting for yourself makes no sense as either side, but somehow this works out to be a scum tell? 5) Mistakes happen. It would suck as a townie too. How does a townies reaction differ from a scum reaction? Can you explain how this is a scum tell? 6) After adding nothing to the discussion, you brought up null reads and pre-mentioned points as your logic behind putting down a vote. The double standard and lack of good logic in placing his vote make him look eager to have his vote down on any bandwagon. ##Vote Jaydrundage | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
##Vote Jaybrundage | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 25 2011 03:35 jaybrundage wrote: So Misder, On my first post you stated that im talking about lynch all lurkers. While yes sep was talkling about lal i was specifically talking about how he said. You should not lynch all lurkers because i like to lurk. Someone blalantly said he would not let him get away with that. And rightfully so. Also dont twist my words. Cybercheese and Gygas state if i can recall correct that we should not follow policies blindly and should go on a case by case basis. I am in total aggreance with them. As i stated we should use the policies as guidelines not follow them blindly.[1] Ok then you write on my second post. I say "If your town tell use everything you know so that we have tools to get scum." And you say "Basically, Bluefishing." Again WTF where did you get this Bluefishing? You think im mafia trying to draw out a blue so i can hit them.[2] On December 25 2011 03:54 jaybrundage wrote: But one thing i have been thinking about him wanting to give up. If he was town he would not want to give up in my opinion because he KNOWS hes innocent and he will be able to reason everyone thru to find out that. If he is mafia tho he would feel like he is letting down his teammates. And he got caught day one. So he wants someone else to come in to try to help them win the game.[3] On December 25 2011 04:19 jaybrundage wrote: On December 25 2011 01:02 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Alright, so I took a look at Jaybrundage's filter- 1) I'm sorry, I haven't been around much 2) Lurking for any reason is not acceptable That seems like a mighty fine double-standard right there. Jay- Would you call me a lurker? I think the reason that Sep said we should not lynch lurkers is because he likes to lurk sometimes correct. That in it self seems bad for the town. If you like to lurk dont play as others have suggested.[4] 3, 4) About half of your reasoning is devoted to talking about how voting for yourself makes no sense as either side, but somehow this works out to be a scum tell? Jay- I think its a distraction. Sep had no reason to vote for himself unless he has a short term memory loss. Thats it. And in that case he should not be playing mafia in the first place. I think that making a self vote in that time served only to confuse people. And confusing people is mafia agenda.[5] 5) Mistakes happen. It would suck as a townie too. How does a townies reaction differ from a scum reaction? Can you explain how this is a scum tell? Jay- But a townie would know there in the right. And would be able to prove it with coherent logically argument. Considering my situation i would hope i can be open and show everyone that my goals are all town orientated. [6] 1, 4) For someone who didn't want their words twisted, you were awfully keen to twist Seph's there. 2) It's not about the question. It's about the wording used to ask the question, which makes it interpretable as bluefishing. 3) This is another null read. 5) I didn't find it confusing. If it was aimed to be, there are much more efficient methods. 6) Even the best townies can make mistakes. While it's true that a good townie should be able to do that, it doesn't apply in all situations. 7) You don't really care for what he said, nor it's context, do you? He was replying to Giygas there, his suspicion wasn't limited to Dirkzor and Shraft. He also suspected them because they were relatively quick to vote on him, this was before you were the fourth person to vote on him. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 25 2011 11:06 sephirotharg wrote: Cyber_Cheese: town seems more likely, but I'm not sold on his innocence yet. He puts his FoS on me early and then just watches events unfold, until the case comes up against Jay. He hops on the bandwagon pretty quickly there. I feel that a townie would have taken a closer look at me than he did. That said, I'm leaning towards town for him. I did no such thing, and for as long as you're going to make me correct you- On December 25 2011 07:07 sephirotharg wrote: Well, sure. Giygas didn't know what to think. Others understood it, mainly Misder, who told everyone we should consider it null. I've also laid out my reasons for voting for myself. So this is just a difference of opinion here. On December 24 2011 08:02 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Null, don't consider it as him having voted unless it's still there at lynch. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
That mislynch was caused by both his actions, and a majority of us being relatively content with having found someone that looked scummy. For as long as there are more scum out there than we can lynch per day, we should be scum hunting after we find a most likely candidate. Of particular concern to me was sheep voting. A few people sheep voted, if I had to name names, they would be Dirkzor Shraft Jaybrundage Hyshes The former two make the list because their initial votes were merely pressure. Their decision to be on the wagon at the end of the day is what matters most, and they borrowed logic from others. At some point you're going to have to make reads on candidates other than the one you want to hang most, to make sure there is a majority if you think someone is scum. It's ok to not have new content in an analysis on a bandwagon you want to join. Scum only say so many scummy things each, it's not like every word is overflowing with scummyness, so at some point the amount of new things to contribute is going to run dry. As a townie, you have to recognise that your argument brings nothing new, and show in your post both who helped you and what logic of theirs convinced you. The problems with reading people arise when townies get content with sheeping, and not doing any analysis. Again, if you're sheep voting, realise that you are, and show the logic that convinced you a person is scummy. Dirkzor, Shraft, Jaybrundage and Hyshes: Tell us what convinced you to be on the lynch at the end of the day. More importantly, if you could kill somebody right now, who would it be and why?. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
| ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 25 2011 14:52 jaybrundage wrote: Cyber quick question for you who would you want to lynch atm. Would you vote still go to me? Yes and no. Yes in that I think there's a good chance you'd flip scum, but potentially I would flip one of those other three based on how they say they reached their conclusions, and who they say they would flip now. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 25 2011 14:42 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Alright, that didn't go so well. That mislynch was caused by both his actions, and a majority of us being relatively content with having found someone that looked scummy. For as long as there are more scum out there than we can lynch per day, we should be scum hunting after we find a most likely candidate. Of particular concern to me was sheep voting. A few people sheep voted, if I had to name names, they would be Dirkzor Shraft Jaybrundage Hyshes The former two make the list because their initial votes were merely pressure. Their decision to be on the wagon at the end of the day is what matters most, and they borrowed logic from others. At some point you're going to have to make reads on candidates other than the one you want to hang most, to make sure there is a majority if you think someone is scum. It's ok to not have new content in an analysis on a bandwagon you want to join. Scum only say so many scummy things each, it's not like every word is overflowing with scummyness, so at some point the amount of new things to contribute is going to run dry. As a townie, you have to recognise that your argument brings nothing new, and show in your post both who helped you and what logic of theirs convinced you. The problems with reading people arise when townies get content with sheeping, and not doing any analysis. Again, if you're sheep voting, realise that you are, and show the logic that convinced you a person is scummy. Dirkzor, Shraft, Jaybrundage and Hyshes: Tell us what convinced you to be on the lynch at the end of the day. More importantly, if you could kill somebody right now, who would it be and why?. As an addendum to this: It's not enough to pick a bandwagon and show which logic you stole. If you join a bandwagon, and don't have original logic for being on that wagon, you have to be prodding people and producing analysis on people other than the bandwagon you are joining. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 25 2011 21:12 Dirkzor wrote: I can't see how you would point me out for sheep voting? I pressure voted _very_ early on Seph and later reevaluted to jay. When i knew that i wouldn't post more before lynch time I went back to Seph to get a lynch. I'll answer you first question now and the second later in another post. For me i wanted to lynch either Seph or Jay. Seph was pressured way to easy into weird posts and strange way of acting. The whole "I wont post until a mod clears me" and the excuses in his posting. As i wrote when i changed my vote to jay i was leaning town on seph - but the lynch still would give some info. Jay just jumped on the wagon way to easy. I wrote about this when i went through peoples reasons to vote for Seph. He did put up a lot of defence when the cases on him were made but it just felt overly aggressive. It seemed like he wanted his actions to be completly the opposite from what seph showed in his defence and he went to far. In the end i just wanted a lynch and voted Seph because the activity level didn't seem that high and i saw the chance to get enough people to switch very small. I've just read the whole thread and have a few people's filter to go through. I'll answer your second question then. I called it sheeping because your pressure was made off a relatively weak statement. What about his play after you put the vote on inspired you to have it there at the end of the day? Did you believe both Seph and Jay were scum at the times you voted them? You claim to use getting a lynch as the reason to swap back to Jay, but your vote-swap changed it from 8v3 to 9v2. Even before your swap, and given that Seph wasn't going to vote for himself, that left the game at 7v4, a majority on Seph already. What parts of the pages between these convinced you that your vote was necessary to ensure a majority was reached, and did anything else factor in outside of wanting to ensure a lynch? On December 25 2011 20:59 hyshes wrote: I did not sheepvote. I'm just not gonna let anyone come in here screw with us and get away with it. Especially when they say they are a noob but clearly aren't.[1] There is no need as town to play so anti-town in a mini setup. Trickery can maybe used in abigger game, but here we have no room for it. And thus, in a mini game i see that as scumplay. There is no point in making lists atm of who is scum or not. I'm going to wait until we know who the scum shot this night. Alright, what made you feel that he clearly wasn't a noob at the time? The automatic default from 'bad trap' to 'scumplay' seems like multiple leaps of logic based off the fact he wasn't the noob he claimed to be. | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 27 2011 11:35 Adam4167 wrote: Misder/Cyber_Cheese: Do you intend on pushing your JB cases further today? Yes and no. Yes I believe he's scum, but I don't really have anything to add, and my case was apparently unconvincing yesterday, so I'm going to find his team mates. I liked Shrafts answers to my questions. I don't approve of a Hyshes lynch at the moment, his posts seem rushed. I strongly disagree with his 'Sephiroth is good' reasoning, but I feel like a scum team could have helped him answer my questions with *anything* else. Dirkzor: On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote: Lest go through the reasons people voted for Sephirotharg: Note the use of a list. Scum like lists, they don't take as much effort, and you don't have to have much of an opinion. Dirk: and Basicly a very weak vote based on a semi joke (the smiley) concerning his own level of activity. I did this because at this point we were only discussing policy lynches which don't really nets us any info since everyone disagrees anyway. Tries to excuse deciding to put his vote down on a wagon that he didn't expect to take off. GiygaS: and He adds nothing new other then to hesitate a bit before voting for seph (after his first defence). This could easily be jumping on the wagon that Shraft and myself started. This is an attempt to share around any blame that might result from the mislynch he knew was coming. jaybrundage: At this point several people was after seph. He was acting weird and voting for himself. An easy target to jump on and thats exactly what jay did. Nothing new added to the case. This is the point where my alarm bells started ringing. Why is everyone going for this kid? I find this very suspicious... Notice how he didn't have to go into specifics when he placed his vote? He avoids making any reasons to actually vote Jay, but gets to move his vote off Sephiroth. Now, go back and read the threads atmosphere around the time he made that list post. This wagon is going to easy at the moment. Either scum have already given up on seph and is then pushing him hard or we found a very bad townie. I'm leaning bad townie. At this point, a Sephiroth lynch was almost unquestionable. On December 25 2011 08:01 Dirkzor wrote: I've skimmed the last pages fast since I'm still celebrating christmas and is soon going out. Right now I don't know who I find the most scummiest/towniest, jay or seph. I want them both to hang - atleast to get info. What bothers me is that a lot of people don't join the discussion. If both Jay and Seph flips town we have very little to work with. Only me, misder, cyber, seph and jay are a part of this. I hope this isn't what we can expect from everyone later in the game =( I'll change my vote back to seph in order to get a lynch since this is were most votes are at the moment. As i said earlier, i would rather lynch then no-lynch. I don't know if I'll be back before lynch time. That depends on how drunk i get =) ##Unvote ##Vote sephirotharg Notice how the discussion on Jay has really kicked up. He knows he looks good having his vote on scum on day 1, but he didn't want to lose a teammate to do it. By changing his vote back, he completely eliminated any chance of a vote-swap. He already knows the Sephiroth mislynch is great because the town won't gain much information. Being 'scared of a no-lynch' is a convenient means to an end. Later on, during his analysis of Giygas: On December 25 2011 22:20 Dirkzor wrote: This post is to me a null read. But i'll run over it anyway. The first part (bolded) makes perfectly sense to me. GiygaS argues that the case on Jay is mostly twisting words and then acknowledges that the case on Seph is similar but to him its more _how_ seph responded then what was the actual case. Again i would have liked to see more in-depth analysis. How did Seph react to make you think he was scum? How did Jay react better? Last part of the post is again defending Jay on why he hasn't scumhunted (besides Seph). At this early stage of the game why would you defend someone? It just strikes me as weird since it is hard to get a read this early.. If a post reads null to you, why mention it? It's half of the analysis, and it's fluff. Fluffing up your post made it look like you were contributing. ##Vote Dirkzor | ||
|
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
My analysis on Dirkzor relies heavily on Jay flipping scum, so I guess we'll find out after the flip. ##Unvote Dirkzor I have no idea where to head from here though... I don't like Shraft and Giygas as candidates, at the moment that seems to leave... ##Vote Hyshes | ||
| ||
), I think his post is definitely scummy, and I'm placing my FoS on him, but I am not lynching him yet. I want to see more than one post out of him to decide if I want to lynch him, as I don't believe one singular post should ever be the reason someone is lynched unless it is really extremely crazy. I'm looking forward to his defense and responses to future questions I ask of him
