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This thread was inspired by the many "quit saying macro better" threads. As a silver/gold player, the reason low level players hate "macro more" is because we don't freakin know how! "You didn't have any upgrades", well maybe I didn't but I have no idea when to even start them! Or, maybe I didn't get my roach warren up fast enough, etc. I finally did the "accelerated learning for low level terrans" because I couldn't freakin figure out how to "macro better" as zerg/protoss. In fact, I finally got to high gold beating plat players and I STILL have no freakin idea how to macro better as zerg/protoss. I watch my replays still and honestly, I have no flippin clue WTF I was doing wrong at all. I finally just quit playing because, while I will soon make it to plat I freakin hate terran and it is worse to be better at terran and hate it than to just go play BFBC2 (Lazy8s btw, look me up!).
Instead of "macro better" people need S.M.A.R.T. goals. This is a term I ripped off from where I work. It means "Specific Measurable Attainable Relevant Time-Bound".
If everyone is willing, lets' do this by race so newbies have real goals to meet. They need to be something S.M.A.R.T so that a noob can watch a replay and see exactly what they missed, fix it, and measure their progress; even if it takes them a month! They don't all have to take you to gold/plat but, if the high level players are correct, they easily should. Again, "need more upgrades" isn't S.M.A.R.T. if the person has no idea when to expand, how many drones to have at a specific time, when to start producing lings, etc. I will start:
Terran
Using this build, get 50 supply at 6:40 with stim. You WILL get to gold if you can do this and expand behind it.
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I improved my macro and micro by 3 rax stim pushing to diamond.
Sadly it doesn't work as well anymore because 3 rax stim push is kinda shit vs someone who knows what they are doing.
The beauty of this build is that it spends all your money. With that alone you should get to platinum by winning with that first push.
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Props to the OP for actually addressing the problem that the weaker players are phrasing when they say they can't "just macro better." This is a good way to think about it- if you are doing a 3rax and you have less than 50 supply at 6:40, then you could simply do the SAME STRATEGY more effectively, with more stuff, if you just practice that build until you can do it.
I propose we compile an index of a large number of builds and milestones like this, and say that unless you meet that milestone, you cannot say that the build in question is strong or weak because you aren't actually doing the build. It's just not up to full power.
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Great Idea! I think it will be awesome to get some SC2 Bench Marks 'XYZ at 8:00' times/builds for players. I myself have been working on some builds that I can give examples of as replays/vods to my students, so they have a reference point to work from.
BTW I think you should remove the 'never miss an inject' comment, as that is a core principal, measurable, and is a requirement to being an awesome zerg. It also has nothing to do with anything else, as you should 'never miss an inject', no matter what is happening.
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On October 12 2011 10:13 Trusty wrote:
Great Idea! I think it will be awesome to get some SC2 Bench Marks 'XYZ at 8:00' times/builds for players. I myself have been working on some builds that I can give examples of as replays/vods to my students, so they have a reference point to work from.
BTW I think you should remove the 'never miss an inject' comment, as that is a core principal, measurable, and is a requirement to being an awesome zerg. It also has nothing to do with anything else, as you should 'never miss an inject', no matter what is happening.
Fair enough, so updated.
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For if you still wanna just learn how Protoss macro works:
-You do upgrades when you have extra money to pull, but enough to keep producing forces
-You can also expand if you have even more money
-1 base supports 4 gates (ONLY TIME I SEE THIS RULE BROKEN IS 3 Gate *Tech* OR 5 GATE AI)
-LIKE ANY RACE: KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO BE MAKING SOMETHING ALL THE TIME! YOU DON'T NEED SUPER MACRO TO DO THIS! People spam so that they can warm-up for the late game, but lower league players don't need this. To just go straightforwardly towards your endpoint from the start by just building units and structures will dramatically have your APM increase. You may ask why, and the answer is "YOU WILL GRADUALLY BE FASTER IF YOU ARE CONSTANTLY DOING SOMETHING!" I don't care what you are doing, if you are doing something it will help you overall no matter what.
You should be hotkeying if you thinking about getting better at all. What I usually do is cycle through my hotkeys. I hit Nexus make probes, chrono boost, make Z/S/S with whatever tech I have and micro units around or SCCOOOOUUUTTT!!!@@!@@@ and I may change my gameplan based off of that. Now I know some GM or Masters is gonna point some things out that I am not doing right, but I think of the the basic logistics. TBH I think these would go for playing StarCraft as a whole and not just Protoss.
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Great idea the whole SMART thing, I too find myself looking at replays and saying "well what did I do wrong ?" Specially in ZvZ (my worst matchup) I often look at the replay and see my opponent with same drones and more army ? How ? Don't know.
If there are some essencial build for zerg I would love to see them with some specific goals like have mutas by x minutes or have 3 bases when you start hive I don't know something like that.
"I finally just quit playing because, while I will soon make it to plat I freakin hate terran and it is worse to be better at terran and hate it" let me add "than to be awful as zerg but love it"
I knwo you can get to plat by 4gating or 3rax stim or even by doing 6rax allins maybe but that won't make me a better player.
I have a ton of friends that started in silver or bronze and got to plat by doing allins or cheeses and now they are stuck in plat because they don't actually know how to play and I don't want to be like that.
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On October 12 2011 10:31 domooooooo wrote:
For if you still wanna just learn how Protoss macro works:
-You do upgrades when you have extra money to pull, but enough to keep producing forces
-You can also expand if you have even more money
-1 base supports 4 gates (ONLY TIME I SEE THIS RULE BROKEN IS 3 Gate *Tech* OR 5 GATE AI)
-LIKE ANY RACE: KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO BE MAKING SOMETHING ALL THE TIME! YOU DON'T NEED SUPER MACRO TO DO THIS! People spam so that they can warm-up for the late game, but lower league players don't need this. To just go straightforwardly towards your endpoint from the start by just building units and structures will dramatically have your APM increase. You may ask why, and the answer is "YOU WILL GRADUALLY BE FASTER IF YOU ARE CONSTANTLY DOING SOMETHING!" I don't care what you are doing, if you are doing something it will help you overall no matter what.
You should be hotkeying if you thinking about getting better at all. What I usually do is cycle through my hotkeys. I hit Nexus make probes, chrono boost, make Z/S/S with whatever tech I have and micro units around or SCCOOOOUUUTTT!!!@@!@@@ and I may change my gameplan based off of that. Now I know some GM or Masters is gonna point some things out that I am not doing right, but I think of the the basic logistics. TBH I think these would go for playing StarCraft as a whole and not just Protoss.
I'm going to pick on you since you are the first one to post.  Lets' make these S.M.A.R.T. (I don't actually know protoss so I will leave "??" for someone to fill in):
1) Start upgrades within ?? seconds(minutes?) of getting your 3rd gate.
2) Expand within 10seconds of 6:00min and 12:00min (in other words, 2 bases at 6:00 and 3 bases at 12:00) -- this is just a guess based on a comment day[9] made during Kiwikaki's game at MLG Anneheim, correct me if I'm wrong!!
3) Never make more than 4 gates per base (or 3 gates and 1 robo)
4) NEVER stop making drones until you hit ??
These rules are great; a Build order with actual numbers is golden.
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1) Start upgrades when you have spare minerals ( there is no specific time or right time, that's why it's so hard to explain in a game like this)
2) Expand within expand when you:
-Have spare minerals
-Move out/Attack
3) Never make more than 4 gates per base (or 3 gates and 1 robo)
4) NEVER stop making drones unless you need that money and supply for more army because you scout or suspect your opponent is coming in soon
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On October 12 2011 10:31 domooooooo wrote:
For if you still wanna just learn how Protoss macro works:
-You do upgrades when you have extra money to pull, but enough to keep producing forces
-You can also expand if you have even more money
-1 base supports 4 gates (ONLY TIME I SEE THIS RULE BROKEN IS 3 Gate *Tech* OR 5 GATE AI)
These are pretty broad, and incorrect statements. This is does not fill the OP's description of S.M.A.R.T
You can't build probes and pylons, while producing from 4warp gates all the time.
Upgrades should be worked into a strategy, not just thrown out because "I think I can afford it" there should be pretty specific reasons behind WHY you are getting X upgrade at Y time.
e.g. I will start +1 armour after I 2Gate FE in PvT, at around the 8:00 - 9:00 mark if I know that no all-in is coming, and I'm going for a Chargelot based mid-game.
Likewise, expanding should be worked into a strategy, with a reason behind when you are taking an expansion, and which expansion location you're taking.
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I think this is a great OP! 3-rax, for all it's "badness", is actually a pretty good build for lower-level players because it will test their execution abilities. Furthermore, there is actually a goal (50 supply at 6:40 with stim, expand behind while moving out).
If a low-level player executes this build perfectly, and then does well in the follow up, they will get into diamond fairly quickly.
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I think the use of SMART goals is a great way to improve. I use the SMART framework all the time at work, as it presents a clear path to achieving goals.
In terms of getting measureable objectives for SMART goals, what better source than the pros? Find a replay of a pro using the build that you want to work on, pause the game at specific intervals, and count units, production facilities, and upgrades. You now have specific measurable objectives to work from.
I am working on a PvZ build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259635Noumena's Guide) . In the replays provided, Noumena has the following at the 8 minute mark:
33 probes, 6 zealots, +1 attack finished, Warpgate research at 50%, 2 gateways, 2 more gateways at 85% completion, Robotics finished, and +1 health just started.
When I analyze a recent replay of my own, I see that at the 8 minute mark I had the following:
29 probes, 6 zealots, +1 attack finished, Warpgate at 50%, 2 gateways, 2 more gateways at 50% completion, Robotics finished
Looking at the difference, I know that I need to work on probe production (spending more chronos on probes) and dropping the 3rd & 4th gates sooner.
So my SMART goal for improvement is to have:
32 probes, 6zealots, +1 attack, Warpgate at 50%, 2 gateways, 2 gateways at 75%, and a robo at the 8 min mark. These are specific and measureable (x # of units / research), achievable (I am close to these goals already, but they are slightly less than a GM level player accomplishes), relevant (all these things are important), and Time-oriented (8 min mark). In working on this goal, I break it down further to focus primarily on probe production (as I feel that hitting the chronos to get more probes early will produce more minerals to allow the gates to be dropped earlier).
Then when I look at the replays, I look only at probe production through the first 8 min and count units at the 8 min mark.
TL, DR: SMART goals are a great way to improve at anything. The best source for measurable objectives in SC2 is looking at pro replays and counting units / buildings / upgrades at the x min mark.
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If you wasnt to improve at protoss macro, one of the best resources is incontrol coaching VoDs on his channel. He is very orderly with his basics and timings.
I'll do a run-down for you of how I do on the fly macro decisions, should apply to every race.
1- Step one is a memorized opening that gets to 2 bases. Do the fastest one you can, usually 1-rax/1gate expand, Hatch first, 14 pool/hatch, etc.
2- Scout to decide if you can tech or if need to defend.
3- Add minumum production to get an army rolling. Example: P on 2 Bases can support 7 gates and probes (8 is not correct). I will just make 4 if I want a long game. The resources I save go into upgrades, robo tech and bases. If I need defense or want to attack, I will go 6-gate, and invest the remaining into probes and a tech structure or a nexus after some time has passed.
For T, a factory is worth about 1.5 raxes, and a few extra reactor barracks for Marines is very good to have because mules.
For Z, its a bit more interesting. Since production is capped by Larva, you need to make more larva available or spend more money per Larva to spend all of your minerals. An easy example is speedlings vs. roaches. Since Roaches cost more, you can support 2-base Roach with 2 hatches and 2 queens. But for lings, they are dirt cheap, so you need to make a macro hatch to support pure ling production and not run high on minerals.
4- For each extra saturated base, add more of your primary production structures to match. P should get 3-4 more gates, T should add on factories and barracks, and for Z this means queens and using higher cost units in the late-game (muta+upgrades is usually sufficient until you have 4+ saturated bases)
The other things are to be on point with your macro mechanic (queen/mule/chronoboost), always make a constant train of workers, and hotkey everything.
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It is very important to measure your builds, time-bound them. This is a good idea.
When you steal a build from someone its not enough to know the order you do things in.
Its important to notice a time that the attack happens and aim for that time. Practice till you can do it. Then use it to stomp newbs. People don't have these goals and therefore are not training in a way that will improve what they are doing wrong specifically.
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The pro replay tip is great. How do we find those replays? Do we simply go to SC2replayed and download replay after replay until we see what we want?
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The thing in my opinion is, that EVERYTHING is related to how the game is going, so it is not possible to say "you need to start upgrading +1 at 6:27.06431"
Most importantly is:
to have written down a general game plan.
to have a "Macro Cycle" or whatever you wanna call it
to have understand of how you get to those two.
Also I think that Macro is just too much generalized and people like to say things like "build units at all time out of all facilities" <- yes and no... sometimes it is better to add on Gateways than to produce units. Sometimes it is better to build a couple of Bunkers than a couple of marines..
I just made a relatively long post on another thread, for details -> + Show Spoiler +Macro is simply put:
To build the right thing at the right time.
So what you really want to achieve is knowledge of your unit composition for certain situations, then you want to order out the buildings for certain points in time so that they provide whatever advantage they can and get used as much as possible.
Obviously you always want to spend your energy on mules asap for otherwise your minerals will spike making it a lot harder to spend them correctly.
Then you want to be able to do this without getting supply locked or cutting workers (at least cutting only a few workers at certain critical points)
Now that you understand the concept of this always thrown in term of "macro" you can think of certain ways to adapt your gameplay.
Most importantly I would say you need clear layd down plans!
If I go versus Protoss I will open XYZ, then I scout, seeing YYX I will react by Z seeing YYZ I will react by X.
you will need to write down concepts of how to play the most general situations.
Now, you got you Gameplan. But how can you make sure you will follow it without huge errors in your gameplay?
Here are the basic mechanics:
What you want to do is check the upper right corner every few seconds. "Do I have Resources to spend? Am I getting supply locked soon?"
You want to check the minimap "Do I get attacked?(assuming you have any sort of scout outside your base) "Do I see any interesting buildings/units that I can react to in a way?(Not exactly macro, but Still I think it should be mentioned here)"
Also you want to check through your buildings "Am I building workers?" "Am I building of all my production facilities? Am I upgrading/researching from all my tech buildings?" "Did I spend all my energy on my OCs/Queens?"
The best way to do this is to play a lot and have a "Concept of Macro" such as (this is only an example, please think of how YOU want to do it!):
1. I check my energy on my OCs, then my SCV production
2. I check the minimap
3. then I check my Supplies, since I still am tabbed on my SCV Line I can build my supply depots right here (take in account that you do not want to be 120/121 like.. ever make enough supply depots so that your next production cycle can be built without additional depots[this applies to everyone less than top 5 Master I guess])
4. then I will check my Production facilities and tech structures
5. then upper right If I have a lot of recources left to spend on extra CC/Upgrades/Production Facilities.
1.
2.
3.
etc
etc
etc
Then you pick out one point of that list you are not good at and focus on it untill you are -> next point.
Overall you want to spend as little time possible looking at your army. I know this is really hard to do and I am quite bad at this as well(coming from a Warcraft background) but you need to actively focus on your base first, everything else second.
That is pretty much what you need to master. If you get perfect at this, expect to become grand master. To get one of the best though, you will have to put in a ton of other thoughts, I will not elaborate in those though.
P.S. if you have a specific question, do not hesitate to write a PM, I want to help as much as I can to make everyone play better so the game can evolve faster
Also, Day9 has made a few dailys called "newby tuesday" the first ones adress common things like "Macro". If you want to put some more time in research, I advice you to watch these and take notes
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On October 12 2011 23:00 Lazy8s wrote:
The pro replay tip is great. How do we find those replays? Do we simply go to SC2replayed and download replay after replay until we see what we want?
What I like to do is watch tournaments.
you will be able to enjoy great games with good casters, cheer for your favourite and whenever you see something interesting you keep that in mind.
Then you can either get that specific replay or just DL a few of that specific player. SC2rep.com is tha best imo.
Or you can just say "he got a really fast +2+2 and still colossus tech off of 2 bases, defending mainly with sentries zeals and only neough stalkers to deny scouting"
"how do I get to that?" --> try and error vs PC
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easy one for zerg: for each queen dedicated to spawning larvae, the energy shouldn't climb to high. A nice point to aim for: don't let your queens energy get over 30 before the first major engagement. If you've got a serious issue with this, start training this once a while in customs. I picked "the first major engagement" because untill that point, most of your apm should be spent on macro (with a little towards scouting) so you should be able to manage without too much demand on your multitasking.
Another one: always spend your larvae the moment your injects pop, and besides that never have more than 1 idle larvae per hatch (1 is ok, but from 3 on your natural larvae production stops, so you actually never want to be idling at 3 larvae).
Not getting supply blocked is pretty self explanatory.
Every time you've spent all your larvae and you've got over 600/1000 (depending on your level, again as low as possible) minerals left, build another hatch and hotkey it. If it can be put at an expo safely, great, if not build it inbase. Exception is when you're maxed, even though one or two macro hatches at that point don't hurt either!
You may need this because you're going a very larvae-heavy style, or because your injects aren't popping good enough.
Droning trick: try to be about 1/2 base saturation ahead of your opponent. If he's 1-basing, don't build over 1,5 saturation worth of drones, but get more units out. If 2-base, get 2,5 base saturation (1 base saturation is around 22 drones, 6 for gas and 16 on minerals). Unless you're following a very specific strat, try to make as little units as possible untill you hit these drone numbers (2-4 lings for scouting, some more if early pressure) so you've got a comfy lead on your opponent econ wise and should be able to overpower him.
Upgrade timings really depend on your build, and to determine when to start upgrading, you need to look at your overall gameplay plan. The longer you want the game to be, the more important upgrades become.
A typical timing though: get your evo chambers at about the same time as your lair, and get hive in time for +3. One evo chamber if you're going roach heavy or mutalisk / infestor heavy, 2 evo chambers if zergling heavy. Note: this is just a random timing i made up on the spot, but which sounds ok. Was simply done in order to give some type of bench mark, most builds you follow should have their own evo timings.
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Great idea ! S.M.A.R.T objectives are in my opininon the best way to improve. I used this methods alot in my sport programme at school. This method is used by the professionnal athelete when they want to improve to compete at a very high level. I never tough about using it in sc2, but yes i think those S.M.A.R.T objective will considerably help anyone who are willing to take the time to improve in sc2.
Because yes a big probleme with the statement " macro better/focus on macro " is that it doesn't fit the S.M.A.R.T methode. I think that higher player (high master/ GM) should look more into this. They should be the one to set those objective (especially the one giving lessons), of course if they are willing (have time) to help the lower level to improve. I believe anyone giving lessons should use this or at least consider it, because it's a method that as been proven to work. I realy hope it get's more popular with sc2 
ACEhellRush
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Back when I was a noob gold leaguer, I used the miracle called 4 gate until diamond. Then I tried to start playing.
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EPT
