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Replay description
I got Tal'Darim Altar and I planned on doing a gasless FE into Thor/Marine/Viking/Ghost.
Unfortunately my opponent got to my home base with his probe before I could complete my wall. So I faked doing double refineries then cancelling both refineries after I had killed his probe.
I hoped this would bait him to attack me instead of doing a FE himself so that I could defend with bunkers and win by having stronger eco. Since I have sometimes lost before when only defending with 2-3 bunkers this time I decided to go overkill with defense, 5 bunkers! Surely 5 bunkers with repair should be auto-win versus any early attack.
I also scanned his natural and since he had not expanded I concluded that one of two things is likely coming, either
1) 4-gate or 3-gate robo OR
2) Fast Colossus.
Having 5 bunkers at my natural I concluded that I was safe from 1) so I took 3 gases in order to get to Vikings as fast as possible to that I would also be safe from 2) - Fast Colossus.
He then attacks my 5 bunkers with mass stalkers and some forcefields, I try to repair them but losing one bunker after another while he foucs fire them down and I lose the game.
When the game ended I was furious but now I am mostly baffled. I did the exact counter-strategy to his strategy and still lost. Should not 5 bunkers + repair hold a 4-gate with ease even if he is trying to stop the repair with forcefields?
Replay
TVP
Replay Analysis
I do not think I made any major macro errors in this game, given that both me and my opponent are platinum players and obviously both have weak macro in general.
Had I not tried to take 3 gas and got more barracks instead it is possible I would have hold this attack. But then I would have been incredible vulnerable if he decided to go fast colossus instead. Maybe marines are just so worthless versus stalkers that I must mix in Marauders in order to be able to survive his attack? But getting gas faster and pumping marauders would mean getting Vikings later.
Please watch the replay and tell me how I can adjust my play to be safe against these type of attacks.
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By the time his attack arrived you should have had a bunch of Marauders with shells, maybe some ghosts popping out or close to having some medivacs.
You're bunker setup would have held a 4 gate at 6:40ish, by the time he attacked it was something like 8 minutes with pure stalkers and you had no marauders. You stockpiled 500 gas by the time he finally broke through which could have been a +1 upgrade, combat shield, marauders, medivacs (maybe a little early for that), some ghosts etc.
The front bunkers weren't fully loaded either, and you put an SCV into one of the back bunkers by mistake.
He didn't really break through untill 10mins at which point you were still just making marines from 3 barracks. The 4th rax could have come much earlier along with various upgrades or teching to medivac. You could have reacted faster to the 4 gate by knowing it was coming and having a group of SCVs keybound ready to pull for repairing.
I would recommend trying to send an SCV into his base ~5mins to know for sure if there is a 4 gate coming in addition to trying to control the watchtower etc. so you can see the attack coming and park a bunch of SCVs infront of your bunkers. It would also have been nice to have your 4th or 5th bunker right on the edge of the cliff with 2 conc shell marauders in it shooting and slowing stuff as it came up your ramp. The back 2 bunkers weren't really fighting at the same time as the front 3.
The amount you invested in bunkers etc. without actually knowing a 4 gate was coming would have probably crippled you against a collosus poke anyway so I wouldn't worry about collosus and just get some marauders.
Positioning his gateways in his natural the way he did was certainly weird but you needed to also be concerned with scouting for a hidden expansion elsewhere or something crazy like a proxy'd stargate. You didn't really have any units out on the map providing you any information
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You stayed on naked barracks beyond the 8min. Just 2 marauders or 1 tank would have stopped that
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Your bunkers had some scvs inside
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Well obviously since you are only a Mock Hamill, his use of the Force(Fields) was too strong for you.
On a serious note, better scouting and a little common sense could have won you the game.
When you had your first scout in his base you saw him blocking any possibility of expanding with 2 gateways. Unless he was going to kill them off(then you would be ahead in production and could probably just attack and kill him, he wasn't expanding unless he proxied it off somewhere.
You should have scouted him before he hit you. The scan was OK but you should have still sent an scv up to the front to check his unit comp/possible expansion.
Yes if he went colossus you would have been at a disadvantage without vikings, but guess what. He didn't! You were preparing for something that was never going to happen. That is like getting 4 turrets up when your zerg opponent hasn't even morphed a lair yet. Once again, this could be fixed with better scouting.
Not overdoing the gas production would have led to a slightly better unit count(2 geysers seem fine though. Also 5 bunkers could have been overdoing it as well. The back 2 look like they could have hindered the ability to repair the front ones. 3 should be more than enough to fend off a 4 gate if you have enough units and pull scvs to repair.
Also practice not queuing units. This just comes with better macro as you get better, but having ~100 minerals in the bank and 3+ marines queued in each barracks is a nono. Have 1 marine in each barracks and start the 2nd right before they end if you want and you will free up money to tech or add more barracks.
You also missed a bit of production with idle barracks. You could have stalled that 2nd bunker to get the 3rd Rax up a tad bit quicker as well.
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Your build order is the problem, bunker placement also wasn't that great. I would suggest doing a 3 rax tech build with a fast +1 upgrade. build order is basically as follows:
depot rax depot CC rax rax bunker gas gas techlab @25 gas, e-bay @75 gas, stim, +1 attack, factory @100 gas, third gas, turret at front, tech lab and reactor for the 2 remaining naked rax, fourth gas and starport and reactor when the fact finishes, combat shields and conc shells when the second tech lab finishes, push with 2 medivacs and start your third and +1 armor.
You can afford to both get gas and build marines constantly out of 3 barracks, while upgrading and teching at the same time. If you're super afraid of cheesey play like 4gate or 3 gate voidrays and the like, I would suggest a 4 rax opener, which goes depot rax depot CC rax rax rax gas bunker if needed, techlab @25 gas, rauder + conc shells, attack with rines and first rauder when it pops, rally in as you take your second and third gas and drop an e-bay. You can usually get a rediculously fast third base with this style of play, but react according to what units you force to the front with your attack, you should be able to get a pretty much perfect read as to what's going on in his base by what you see at the front.
hopefully this helps you realize how you were just not making units while your opponent was so you died when they attacked. Empty bunkers don't do much.
Edit: oh yea, just realized you put thor there.... yeaaaa..... ummmm tal darim..... u shouldn't be building thor marine against protoss in pretty much any situation save some weird timing attacks, but that's a whole different discussion.
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xingke said most of the things
the problem is that you had for entire 2 min no gas
i mean after you had start you 2nd hq
and add 2baracks
what was the reason not to take gas
you had no marauder no stim no shield not even shells
i mean ok you had 5 bunker
but did all 5 bunker defend you when toss attacked
at least always 2 bunker shoot
and he carefully focused them and if a stalker got low hp he put them on the back
you could have more marine/marauder on this time to stop the push
5 bunker are nice if all of them shoot but they didnt in the end you defend only with 2 bunker the rest was idle
like xingke said since you scout the warp gates you could see that he could not fit a nexus there
so he is going fast for 1 base attack even without scan
2-3 marauder would had helped you alot
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You did scouted that he blocked his own natural expand with a gateway when you were over there with your SCV. Why were you so surprised by him choosing not to destroy it and attack you?
There are many mistakes in this game, but I just want to comment on one that I see over and over again in replaces in these forums.
You don't spend any gas at all until the 12 minute mark, after the game is already over. Basically, you wanted to hold off an all in using nothing but marines, SCVs, and bunkers. That's kind of like a protoss coming on TL and complaining when he fails to hold a stim bio push with pure zealot probes. You never see that. Why? The protoss knows he would get laughed at.
You don't get gas until the 8 minute mark... Any form of gas unit holds this push. 1 seiged tank obliterates this with 0 micro. 1 raven for a PDD holds this because of the mass stalker. Hell, even if you had just made 2 marauders and kept moving them to new bunkers, you would have held.
Why do so many tarren feel entitled to immortality because of bunkers? Look at the army tab at the start of the push. He has more than double your investment in minerals and (in terms of percents) infinitely more invested in gas. He almost has as many stalkers as you have marines. Frankly, if you had held this, I would be really disappointed in the state of Starcraft.
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Thanks for the feedback. I have some follow-up questions:
1. If I try to get Marauders early when I FE, how many barracks and with which addons should I have before his 4-gate or delayed 4-gate hits?
2. Is it better to keep your expansion OC in your homebase so that you have Marauders out before floating out the OC?
3. Is it better go go for Marauder or Tanks this early?
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Do this I open with this most games in TvP because it lets me go for fast stim to defend these pushes with a decent expansion timing and marauders. I can also get quick ghosts or medivacs depending on what I need. I'm masters 28th atm.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=236235#disc
(not a perfect replay because he doesn't attack early xD but it shows the basic bo)
12 rax
13 refinery fill gas up asap
make 1 marine then throw down a tech lab
Make another marine+stim when t lab finishes
Marauder
Make CC
Throw down 4 more barrack as you scv/marauder production allows. 1 reactor/3 tlab.
Make CC into OC inside of base then push down (be careful of a 4 gate at this point send a scv out across the map to make sure your safe if need be throw down 1/2 bunkers and rush for ghost.)
At this point you should be making 5 rax worth of units so after you secure the nat at about 50/60 food do a quick push. I end most games here with a strong stim+conc shell push while the toss is attempting to expand himself by kiting zealots and slowly working my way in. If not a kill i can keep him spending gas trying to stay alive instead of teching. At this point DO NOT OVER COMMIT. It is so easy to get stuck behind FF and lose everything and then your playing behind all game long. Pull back and stim home if needed to keep most of this ball alive. Run home and use your 4 gas to do what you need. My favorite is double reactor starport with double Ebays for extremely fast 1/1 and medivacs so you can keep dropping or defend colossi play.
Cheers!
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On October 09 2011 20:01 MockHamill wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. I have some follow-up questions:
1. If I try to get Marauders early when I FE, how many barracks and with which addons should I have before his 4-gate or delayed 4-gate hits?
2. Is it better to keep your expansion OC in your homebase so that you have Marauders out before floating out the OC?
3. Is it better go go for Marauder or Tanks this early?
Standard safe 1 rax FE:
1 rax
CC
Bunker (at nat)
2 more rax. Make 3 rines constantly.
2nd bunker.
Double gas.
Tech lab 2 rax and reactor 1 when you feel safe (by having scouted)
Get stim and shield/conc.
Die to 3 gate proxy SG all in
Apart from the last line which is kinda a joke, thats it. Depending on what you scout you should go SP or GA first.
1) Hold 4 gate with pure rines and bunkers.
2) On Shak and a couple other safe maps make your CC at the nat. On less safe ones OC it in your base and float.
3) Dont go tanks in tvp as a general rule. Stick to MMMGV,
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Here's a replay with a nice opener for TvP and a nice followup against boring old 3 base colo play from protoss.
http://drop.sc/41061
Edit:
And here's a rep of what happens with this build when your opponent (tt1) does a nexus 4gate and you move command up their ramp :D
http://drop.sc/41772
And another where I just straight up kill a greedy 3 gate warp prism build: (RGNPerfect)
http://drop.sc/42519
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you probably lost over 20marines because they were just running out to the stalker ball, that's problem that's a huge problem, they should only attack when the stalkers are attacking the bunker.
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On October 08 2011 23:00 CatNzHat wrote:
Your build order is the problem, bunker placement also wasn't that great. I would suggest doing a 3 rax tech build with a fast +1 upgrade. build order is basically as follows:
depot rax depot CC rax rax bunker gas gas techlab @25 gas, e-bay @75 gas, stim, +1 attack, factory @100 gas, third gas, turret at front, tech lab and reactor for the 2 remaining naked rax, fourth gas and starport and reactor when the fact finishes, combat shields and conc shells when the second tech lab finishes, push with 2 medivacs and start your third and +1 armor.
You can afford to both get gas and build marines constantly out of 3 barracks, while upgrading and teching at the same time.
Hey Cat this is similar to a tvz build I've been using so wouldn't mind giving this opener a go -
My question is are you only producing marines the whole time, or do you produce Marauders as soon as you get tech lab on barracks or sometime after?
I also see you've just included a replay to check out so will do that now.
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You build 1 rax rauders, 3 rax rines, and push with the first rauder. (start conc shells as soon as you have the gas).
From there I tend to drop a fast third base and an e-bay along with stim, from there I either go for a ton more rax and a ghost academy if I see heavy gateway play with a delayed factory and starport, or if I see super fast colo I'll drop a factory ASAP and go for starport tech quickly with a more marauder heavy unit comp (to deal with stalker colo). Either way about the same time my third lands I want to be starting mobius reactor. I just put up a couple more reps vs some other players.
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EPT
