Darkness Falls is a 4-spawn rotational symmetry map. It is extremely easy to get yourself up to 3 base on this map which in turn brings out the macro in all matchups. It was also lucky enough to be included into the IPL Map pool.
VODS: These are all part of the IPL Team Arena Challenge. If you haven't watched it, I suggest not opening up this spoiler and instead just watching the whole tournament. + Show Spoiler +
I'm liking it. I approve of all the neat features™, but I have a feeling each of them will drive somebody crazy. The tankable nat seems slightly OP for TvZ in that spawn orientation, because it's much farther than Tal'Darim Altar to get down there with lings to deal with it. Elevator with quick medivacs would be a real pain.
More generally, seems like CCW spawn has an easier time of it. They can park their army right outside the 3rd and guard the 4th as well, while CW has to break a 2nd set of rocks to expand, and then there's no good place to put your army to be ready to meet an attack that could go either side. If you camp on the connecting high ground, you'll just show up late if you don't have some kind of scouting info on where they're attacking. Which brings me to...
What about a tower right in the middle? Did you try that and get rid of it? Did you play with any other tower configurations? The center tower would really help the CCW player by giving them more warning.
Also, if there was a 3rd ramp to the center on those high ground connectors, it would help as well.
Just at first glance the map seems too small for how easy it is to take bases and the mains also look like they don't have enough space to fit enough production in the late game.
- The 3rd is too easy to defend in PvZ with just a wall off at the rocks. - Look at the 5 o clock natural. The minerals are completely exposed to tank fire and there's 2 geysers to squeeze marines basically creating a wall off from zerglings.
I like the design but it just seems unplayable for zerg. From a protoss player.
@Eatthepath I did originally have a XWT in the middle of the map. I do like having a watchtower in my maps but for some reason on this map I didn't like it directly in the middle. Although maybe after some more feedback and/or playtesting on it I'll put it back. We'll see. I did also have a 3rd ramp on those high ground pieces as well, but ended up taking them off because I wanted them to be more for a defenders advantage. Although same goes with the XWT idea, after some playtesting maybe I'll add it back in. It's funny that your suggestions are stuff I did originally have.
@Doko The mains are a littler smaller, but with the natural & the third being easier to take you are also able to put many of your buildings by them. You also say you worry about Tanks, but collosus & mutas can do the same type of great harass just as well as tanks can. Most maps have a super safe natural and the 3rd will have an exposed mineral line. Here, I give the option of being able to do a fast expand, yet mid/late game it will definitely be harder to defend. Then again, the 3rd here is safer then most 3rds on other maps.
I don't want to hold 1/1/1 on this map, you have very little manoeuvring space before he is shelling your mineral line, effectively putting you on equal footing with 1base terran. I'd also suggest you open he middle a bit, either by removing the middle obstacle or 4 around it. I'd be very afraid to move anywhere with zerg
the map looks really good thought the 3rd might be a bit easy to take as terran (build a depot wall close to your CC with thanks and turrets). But the map looks good, maybe put in inner bases beneath the ramps that connect the 3rds to 4ths.
Also, 2 chokes to hold 4 bases = BAD. you wants at least 3 ramps to defend 4 bases...
I really like this map, but am wondering about the seife tanks from the fourth as well. Besides that, I really like the out-lay of the map... Nice four-spawn map with lots of open/backdoor/chock points. Really solid generally. Big thumbs up!
If siege tanks get close enough to the cliffs at the 4th they are able to hit the natural expansion (assuming this is what you're worried about). Have to see more games on it to see if it really is a problem but so far it seems to be working out just fine. Especially since the 3rd is super easy to get I think it works out nice that there is still an easy way to harass.
On January 26 2012 12:33 SidianTheBard wrote: If siege tanks get close enough to the cliffs at the 4th they are able to hit the natural expansion (assuming this is what you're worried about). Have to see more games on it to see if it really is a problem but so far it seems to be working out just fine. Especially since the 3rd is super easy to get I think it works out nice that there is still an easy way to harass.
Appreciate the compliments though. ^_^
That's good to know. I feel that it would be one of those postitions that terran players could take much akin to Shattered temple (where you siege a tank behind the gold mineral line and it can shell with relatively little damage taken). In other words, it's a map feature but not a problem. I feel that a quick 8 minute MVP-esque push could be very common on this map in high level TvZ to punish that ever so greedy third/exploit that tank placement.
I've played on this map quite a bit and I have to say that it's generally a big thumbs up. Blink Stalkers are pretty wrist-slit worthy in PvP, but besides that, generally no complaints
That's good to know. I feel that it would be one of those postitions that terran players could take much akin to Shattered temple (where you siege a tank behind the gold mineral line and it can shell with relatively little damage taken). In other words, it's a map feature but not a problem. I feel that a quick 8 minute MVP-esque push could be very common on this map in high level TvZ to punish that ever so greedy third/exploit that tank placement.
I've played on this map quite a bit and I have to say that it's generally a big thumbs up. Blink Stalkers are pretty wrist-slit worthy in PvP, but besides that, generally no complaints
Yeah, since it is fairly easy to take a 3rd and you really only have to defend 1 choke, there's got to be some way to allow you to easily harass your opponent. I think it also only plays a big roll if the zerg spawns clockwise to the terran player because otherwise they'll have to travel a much longer distance to abuse the natural. Worst case scenario is if it does get too abusive there's always the option to allow only cross positions.
Also, TvZ is the matchup I am most worried about because it seems to be the one that cliff drops / natural sieging is going to make or break it. IPL did say it was almost completely balanced according to their stats on the map tournament so I guess only time will tell.
ps. Aren't blink stalkers pretty wrist-slit worthy in almost any map?
That's good to know. I feel that it would be one of those postitions that terran players could take much akin to Shattered temple (where you siege a tank behind the gold mineral line and it can shell with relatively little damage taken). In other words, it's a map feature but not a problem. I feel that a quick 8 minute MVP-esque push could be very common on this map in high level TvZ to punish that ever so greedy third/exploit that tank placement.
I've played on this map quite a bit and I have to say that it's generally a big thumbs up. Blink Stalkers are pretty wrist-slit worthy in PvP, but besides that, generally no complaints
[...] ps. Aren't blink stalkers pretty wrist-slit worthy in almost any map?
Hah. A joker.
But there are certain maps that are much friendlier for blink-stalkers, especially when taking a third base usually follows a period of heavy aggression. Looking to today's match of Illusion vs. Choya, Choya didn't even try for a macro game, electing instead to do a 4gate blink-stalker allin, which resulted in a weird situation where you had Illusion running towards Choya unoticing Choya's army by Illusions own main (a cool base-trade situation if you were). Choya bungled the game in the end, but if he had better control he could have really abused Illusions production with his blink stalkers. If you think about maps like Antiga/Sandshorn Mists (where Blink stalkers are "best"), the reason they are so good is cause the angle of arc that they have to travel is a straight line, while the defender has a wide arc to cover. This isn't a balance issue per-say, but it might make toss players that don't like going blink stalkers hesitant to play on this map.
All in all though, it's impossible to create a perfect map, but instead we should aim for a map that is a little new and a little known. I feel that this is what you achieved here, as immediately I taste a little Shattered Temple, a dash of Bel'Shir Beach, with maybe a sprinkle of Shakuras Plateau and Crevasse. I also just feel that it's very very important that we notice the problems with maps that are balanced so we don't start creating banal and boring maps (oh hey, another rotational two spawn map.... yay).
Looking foreword to tearing apart your next great work Sidian.
Edit: The matchups that need most obvious design choices in balance design is TvT (tank wars), PvP (blink stalkers/warp ins/FF). Zerg just seems a race that dictates the map style, while those above matchups need special attention due to space-controling units.
Oh I completely agree, Blink stalkers are extremely good on this map because they are able to harass the natural then 5 seconds later blink into the main. You could imagine a good player harassing the natural, blinking into the main to draw their army up, forcefield the ramp, blink back to the natural and take out the natural. You actually saw in it the Choya vs Illusion game that first he attacked the natural from the ramp, then blinked to the main, then back and forth a bit, then he went over to where the 4th is and was attacking the starport and even blinked a couple stalkers up to harass even more. Although then again if the defender knows this could happen he could easily keep a couple Marines/Marauders/Zealots/Immortals/Roaches etc in the area that stalkers can blink up.
I think what this does though, is it plays to all styles of gameplay. The natural is extremely easy to take, just a double wide ramp. As well as the 3rd is extremely easy to take where as you still only have to defend 1 choke. Yet, 1 & 2 base play can still be extremely strong since there are many vulnerabilities to abuse. We saw Illusion go for a 1 Rax FE because of how easy it is to expand on the map, yet maybe Choya knew there was cliffs to abuse so he thought Blink could be a deadly attack. There's also been a recent PvZ on it (can't remember the players atm) where it was almost a complete turtle fest with almost no engagements that got up to a 4 base toss vs I think it was 6 base zerg. So it all depends on scouting & preparing for your opponent and hopefully as more and more games get played on it, I can just keep tweaking things to get it as balanced as possible.
Just wanted to commend you for your awesome map, it's the best community made map I've tried so far. I love how it takes the good parts of so many maps while staying original and keeping imbalance at a minimum.
Two things I don't love: * A bit long between main and natural (for creep spread) * The high ground paths to the third/fourth feel a bit strong for protoss, so easy to use FF to hold, amazing positions for proxy pylons. They are strong for seige as well, but I feel because of the orientation, seiging up on them is less abuseable.
On February 03 2012 20:47 Tobberoth wrote: Just wanted to commend you for your awesome map, it's the best community made map I've tried so far. I love how it takes the good parts of so many maps while staying original and keeping imbalance at a minimum.
Two things I don't love: * A bit long between main and natural (for creep spread) * The high ground paths to the third/fourth feel a bit strong for protoss, so easy to use FF to hold, amazing positions for proxy pylons. They are strong for seige as well, but I feel because of the orientation, seiging up on them is less abuseable.
Glad you enjoy it. Feel free to post any replays as I'd always be up for watching them. :D
About the couple things you dislike: I do know that 1 creep tumor will be just a little short from making it to the natural, as in about 3 or 4 squares short. It might turn out to be a problem but I think since the natural is easier to hold zergs should be alright. Plus, it just makes them have to learn how to spread creep better, right?
I feel the highground is only a problem when the zerg spawns counter clockwise to a protoss and that's just because if the zerg takes their natural 3rd it will be expanding towards the protoss as well as it is right next to the highground, which then with collosus + forcefields a 2 base timing might be a little too tough for zergs to hold. Although, I feel any other position it is kind of a needed feature because it adds a somewhat "safe" zone for the terran or protoss army to fortify, especially since the middle of the map and directly outside the 3rd is fairly open.
As always it just needs to see more and more games and get more and more feedback. Right now it's actually just a tad bit zerg favored but I think once more games get played and the cliffs gets used more & people start dropping in specific spots hopefully it becomes almost completely balanced.
VODS: (Added here and in the OP) These are all part of the IPL Team Arena Challenge. If you haven't watched it, I suggest not opening up this spoiler and instead just watching the whole tournament. + Show Spoiler +
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xCn9U.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lpgMH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tumin.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/n7PB2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FDWzg.jpg)
I did also have a 3rd ramp on those high ground pieces as well, but ended up taking them off because I wanted them to be more for a defenders advantage. Although same goes with the XWT idea, after some playtesting maybe I'll add it back in. It's funny that your suggestions are stuff I did originally have.
