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http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=232165
The above is a link to a PvT I played that I'd like some input on. I am a Diamond player and it was against a Diamond Terran player. As you can see from my BM at the end of the game, I really felt like I outplayed him (and I still do). I was shocked that I lost this, all things considered. I know I killed his third and I also killed a lot of SCVs. Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if it really helps that much to kill workers against Terran. It seems like the MULEs, especially late in the game, can balance out any economic advantage you might get. I had something like 20-30 workers more than him for a significant portion of the game but it didn't seem to matter.
A few things that I noticed is that I lost a lot of expensive units for basically no reason (Dark Templar, High Templar). I warped in too many DT's to defend too hastily in more than one scenario. I also didn't scout where his fourth base was.
I'd like some input as to why I lost the game, but if you see anything I could improve upon please let me know, even if it isn't directly related to the loss.
User was banned for this post.
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your Country52798 Posts
A few things that I noticed is that I lost a lot of expensive units for basically no reason (Dark Templar, High Templar). I warped in too many DT's to defend too hastily in more than one scenario. I also didn't scout where his fourth base was.
I'd like some input as to why I lost the game
It's clear you didn't read the OP before posting.
+ Show Spoiler +
It seems like the MULEs, especially late in the game, can balance out any economic advantage you might get. I had something like 20-30 workers more than him for a significant portion of the game but it didn't seem to matter.
This is sort of true, but since you killed his third, he won't have as much gas income as you. Exploit that. You basically ruined it by losing all those gas-heavy units.
A few extra things:
Scout!
Don't bm 
gl hf.
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It's clear you didn't read the OP before posting.
wat
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This match really highlighted a lot of things about the match up that really annoy me. I mean, man, I killed his third and had 70 workers to his 40 for most of the match. But the incredibly economy provided by Mules combined with the sheer cost-efficiency of Terran units just completely nullified it. I had more bases, more workers, and yet I was scraping the bottom of the barrel for resources whereas he was floating 1k+ minerals the whole game with an equal supply T.T
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On September 18 2011 08:56 Skaggs wrote:
This match really highlighted a lot of things about the match up that really annoy me. I mean, man, I killed his third and had 70 workers to his 40 for most of the match. But the incredibly economy provided by Mules combined with the sheer cost-efficiency of Terran units just completely nullified it. I had more bases, more workers, and yet I was scraping the bottom of the barrel for resources whereas he was floating 1k+ minerals the whole game with an equal supply T.T
this means you have a better teched/'better quality' army. if you had used your gas units effeciently you would have won.
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On September 18 2011 08:59 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 08:56 Skaggs wrote:
This match really highlighted a lot of things about the match up that really annoy me. I mean, man, I killed his third and had 70 workers to his 40 for most of the match. But the incredibly economy provided by Mules combined with the sheer cost-efficiency of Terran units just completely nullified it. I had more bases, more workers, and yet I was scraping the bottom of the barrel for resources whereas he was floating 1k+ minerals the whole game with an equal supply T.T this means you have a better teched/'better quality' army. if you had used your gas units effeciently you would have won.
Can you be more specific please?
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Plat toss here so take it how you will. After you kill his third you also kill a significant portion of his army but you shouldve pulled your army out beecause he pulled scvs and your army targeted them and his marauders ruined you (read unnecessary losses). Next you send 4 dts across the middle of the map, and while they do run through a scan you don't use them to scout his third or fourth when you couldve done significant damage there. Lastly, you throw your army away into something like 8 tanks in siege mode when you only have 2 maybe 3 colossus. You had an obs over his army so wait until they unsiege next time.
As a side comment you saw he was going double engineering early on and while you did chrono your upgrades he was still always slightly ahead.
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your Country52798 Posts
On September 18 2011 08:50 Skaggs wrote:wat
Joke.
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The engagement at his third was a disaster to your army, after the engagement, you have 20 army food left, while he has 40. You managed to kill some scvs and his third, while put up your third, so it was to your advantage. But it wasn't a decisive advantage as you lose a much bigger army, compare to his.
You build 5 cannons each base, except for the natural expansion(it's 12-15 cannons)=> you waste your advantage.
You didn't "scraping the bottom of the barrel of resource", you float 2000-2400 mineral at 20-21 minutes, while he only float 1000.
At the engagement when both of you are almost maxed out, you microed poorly. You let him siege his tank up and then you engage. You should either pulled back or hit his force right when his tank are moving across the map. You didn't micro your high templars properly too. At the end of the engagement you have 4 templars left standing, all of them have enough mana and could have cast storm with 1 at almost max energy, but without your force, those 4 templars can't kill a thing.
Even if he didn't put up the forth, you would still lose.
You didn't out play him when you build 12-15 cannons.
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Well you definetly did not outplay the terran. Your engagements in the middle were terrible and you spent more time using what apm you had to storm drop instead of storming his army. You could have taken a 4th earlier and you need more then 6 gates on 3 bases.
Stop spamming cannons and leave a Ht in each base with a cannon or 2. Feedbacking a medivac with good timing and a few warped in chargelots do good versus drops.
On a big macro map like that drop a second forge to get to 3-3 faster.
Did not harass his army/base with dts enough.
That game was far from imba just you playing bad.
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The game was pretty cut and dry.
You suicide a ton of expensive units and never really build a decent army, he also macro's poorly, but you suicide a ton of expensive units, build static D, and macro worse, so you end up with a worse army comp, and you engage poorly multiple times.
You have to have a goal when going into a game, some sort of plan on how you're going to win, and you seemed like you just built whatever whenever cuz you felt like it, and you had no end goal or purpose for each of the little things you did.
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Terrible engagements.
After killing his 3rd, and engaging his army you definetly shoulda pulled back when your collusus and sentry's were starting to become endangered, and your zealot meat shield had been destroyed. He killed your tech units. You didnt kill his - you lost over a 1000 gas by staying around too long . Wouldn't have even hurt to pull back straight after killing the 3rd. There's no reason to risk losing your army when you've just killed an expo.
You should also use ur HT's to feedback Medivacs, not just storm.
You threw away your army against Terran's siege mode army. Never a good idea to attack a sieged up Terran.
In conclusion, engagements are the main reason you lost this game.
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On September 18 2011 09:32 ImmortalWill wrote:
The engagement at his third was a disaster to your army, after the engagement, you have 20 army food left, while he has 40. You managed to kill some scvs and his third, while put up your third, so it was to your advantage. But it wasn't a decisive advantage as you lose a much bigger army, compare to his.
You build 5 cannons each base, except for the natural expansion(it's 12-15 cannons)=> you waste your advantage.
You didn't "scraping the bottom of the barrel of resource", you float 2000-2400 mineral at 20-21 minutes, while he only float 1000.
At the engagement when both of you are almost maxed out, you microed poorly. You let him siege his tank up and then you engage. You should either pulled back or hit his force right when his tank are moving across the map. You didn't micro your high templars properly too. At the end of the engagement you have 4 templars left standing, all of them have enough mana and could have cast storm with 1 at almost max energy, but without your force, those 4 templars can't kill a thing.
Even if he didn't put up the forth, you would still lose.
You didn't out play him when you build 12-15 cannons.
I wasn't intending to say that I macro'd perfectly, I was only trying to illustrate how, when the crucial "army-building" moments arrived, I was starving for resources while he had more than enough, despite having a (seemingly) vastly inferior economy.
I really only built about 5 cannons at my third. I think that's a perfectly reasonable amount of static defense.
You're right about the High Templars. I lost a lot of those unnecessarily. however, the reason I engaged his army is because I was flanking him with 4-5 Dark Templar which were shift-targetting down his siege tanks. I thought I'd end up cutting off his firepower from the back whilst crushing his bio in the front. Clearly I underestimated the power of un-upgraded siege tanks.
And finally, I don't know what building 5 cannons had to do with me "not outplaying him". I killed his his third exactly as my strategy was intended. I even harassed and dropped more than he did.
Thanks for your input.
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On September 18 2011 09:36 Swad1000 wrote:
Well you definetly did not outplay the terran. Your engagements in the middle were terrible and you spent more time using what apm you had to storm drop instead of storming his army. You could have taken a 4th earlier and you need more then 6 gates on 3 bases.
Stop spamming cannons and leave a Ht in each base with a cannon or 2. Feedbacking a medivac with good timing and a few warped in chargelots do good versus drops.
On a big macro map like that drop a second forge to get to 3-3 faster.
Did not harass his army/base with dts enough.
That game was far from imba just you playing bad.
Firstly, only because you decided to bring up APM, I'll just go ahead and say that "what APM I have" is low (relatively speaking) because I opt not to artificially inflate it at the beginning of matches for no reason. If I did, I promise you'd see my final result at 150-200, just like every other player that spams useless crap.
I could have and should have taken a fourth earlier. That's definitely true. That's one thing that I noticed when I watched the replay myself.
I don't know what "spamming cannons" is supposed to mean. I just drop a few at my third. That seems completely reasonable to me. I suppose I just don't trust myself to feedback a medivac in time. I feel like it will probably drop before I'll actually notice it, but maybe that's just my lack of map awareness. In a perfect world I should be able to execute this but at this point I don't feel comfortable trying to defend drops with feedback alone.
I had more than 6 gates on 3 bases. I'm not retarded. And about the double Forge... yeah, when I saw his Engineering Bays I considered getting double Forge, but I decided against it. I was fairly certain that I could keep up with his upgrades on one Forge just by being better at remembering to research + Chrono boost. I was right; he never had a significant upgrade advantage.
Thanks for you input.
Edit: Ah, I read the last sentence in your post. I take back that "Thank you for your input". You're a douche.
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On September 18 2011 13:35 Skaggs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 09:36 Swad1000 wrote:
Well you definetly did not outplay the terran. Your engagements in the middle were terrible and you spent more time using what apm you had to storm drop instead of storming his army. You could have taken a 4th earlier and you need more then 6 gates on 3 bases.
Stop spamming cannons and leave a Ht in each base with a cannon or 2. Feedbacking a medivac with good timing and a few warped in chargelots do good versus drops.
On a big macro map like that drop a second forge to get to 3-3 faster.
Did not harass his army/base with dts enough.
That game was far from imba just you playing bad. Firstly, only because you decided to bring up APM, I'll just go ahead and say that "what APM I have" is low (relatively speaking) because I opt not to artificially inflate it at the beginning of matches for no reason. If I did, I promise you'd see my final result at 150-200, just like every other player that spams useless crap. I could have and should have taken a fourth earlier. That's definitely true. That's one thing that I noticed when I watched the replay myself. I don't know what "spamming cannons" is supposed to mean. I just drop a few at my third. That seems completely reasonable to me. I suppose I just don't trust myself to feedback a medivac in time. I feel like it will probably drop before I'll actually notice it, but maybe that's just my lack of map awareness. In a perfect world I should be able to execute this but at this point I don't feel comfortable trying to defend drops with feedback alone. I had more than 6 gates on 3 bases. I'm not retarded. And about the double Forge... yeah, when I saw his Engineering Bays I considered getting double Forge, but I decided against it. I was fairly certain that I could keep up with his upgrades on one Forge just by being better at remembering to research + Chrono boost. I was right; he never had a significant upgrade advantage. Thanks for you input. Edit: Ah, I read the last sentence in your post. I take back that "Thank you for your input". You're a douche.
I guess you can't accept the fact that you played poorly, and instead whine about imbalance to make you feel better about yourself. You'll never get better if you keep on thinking like that.
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On September 18 2011 14:04 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 13:35 Skaggs wrote:On September 18 2011 09:36 Swad1000 wrote:
Well you definetly did not outplay the terran. Your engagements in the middle were terrible and you spent more time using what apm you had to storm drop instead of storming his army. You could have taken a 4th earlier and you need more then 6 gates on 3 bases.
Stop spamming cannons and leave a Ht in each base with a cannon or 2. Feedbacking a medivac with good timing and a few warped in chargelots do good versus drops.
On a big macro map like that drop a second forge to get to 3-3 faster.
Did not harass his army/base with dts enough.
That game was far from imba just you playing bad. Firstly, only because you decided to bring up APM, I'll just go ahead and say that "what APM I have" is low (relatively speaking) because I opt not to artificially inflate it at the beginning of matches for no reason. If I did, I promise you'd see my final result at 150-200, just like every other player that spams useless crap. I could have and should have taken a fourth earlier. That's definitely true. That's one thing that I noticed when I watched the replay myself. I don't know what "spamming cannons" is supposed to mean. I just drop a few at my third. That seems completely reasonable to me. I suppose I just don't trust myself to feedback a medivac in time. I feel like it will probably drop before I'll actually notice it, but maybe that's just my lack of map awareness. In a perfect world I should be able to execute this but at this point I don't feel comfortable trying to defend drops with feedback alone. I had more than 6 gates on 3 bases. I'm not retarded. And about the double Forge... yeah, when I saw his Engineering Bays I considered getting double Forge, but I decided against it. I was fairly certain that I could keep up with his upgrades on one Forge just by being better at remembering to research + Chrono boost. I was right; he never had a significant upgrade advantage. Thanks for you input. Edit: Ah, I read the last sentence in your post. I take back that "Thank you for your input". You're a douche. I guess you can't accept the fact that you played poorly, and instead whine about imbalance to make you feel better about yourself. You'll never get better if you keep on thinking like that.
Seems to me like I was whining about you insulting me for no reason more than game balance.
Still, Terran is clearly the best race in the game. I mean, that can't possibly even be up for debate at this point, right?
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You killed his 3rd, and some scvs, but that doesn't win you the game. In that engagement, you lost all your colossi and he retained all his medivacs. Bio is easily replaceable, collosi are not. Also, once your main army died, you had a ton of gate ways that were idle for a very long time. You also barely resumed colossi production. The 2nd main engagement in the middle of the map went so terribly for you. You had 3-1, he had 3-3, you missed almost all of your storms, and then let your remaining HTs with lots of energy die too. Sure, they got off a few storms, but that was once everything died, do he could just pull back and let his medivacs heal. Having an economic advantage doesn't mean anything if you don't spend your money. Lastly, don't complain about balance, you lost cause of your poor playing, not because terran is "imba"
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If you make a post asking for help, accept that the people replying to your post are better than you and try to make objective decisions without getting defensive and coming off as a jackass.
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On September 18 2011 14:41 Zoku wrote:
You killed his 3rd, and some scvs, but that doesn't win you the game. In that engagement, you lost all your colossi and he retained all his medivacs. Bio is easily replaceable, collosi are not. Also, once your main army died, you had a ton of gate ways that were idle for a very long time. You also barely resumed colossi production. The 2nd main engagement in the middle of the map went so terribly for you. You had 3-1, he had 3-3, you missed almost all of your storms, and then let your remaining HTs with lots of energy die too. Sure, they got off a few storms, but that was once everything died, do he could just pull back and let his medivacs heal. Having an economic advantage doesn't mean anything if you don't spend your money. Lastly, don't complain about balance, you lost cause of your poor playing, not because terran is "imba"
Thanks.
And come on, I'm not the only person that rages when they lose.
Although I think it's common knowledge that Terran is too strong. I mean who could even argue at this point? Still, probably not why I lost the match.
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If you make a post asking for help, accept that the people replying to your post are better than you
That's not the part I have trouble with. I guess I just can't make the logic jump where being better than me at Starcraft (which may or may not be true, I have no way to tell) equates into a free pass to be insulting and demeaning without provocation.
But then I guess that is, in essence, the entire reason the TL forums exist.
And if someone points to something I did as a mistake, when in reality I did it deliberately as part of my strategy, I'm sure as shit going to explain why I did it so people can comment on the reasons I did things. Otherwise they'll just think I screwed up.
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EPT
