EPTI might not be quite as active as in other games in the last few months because of school, but I want to test how active I can be, and I should still be able to play well. It's also LOTR, so how can I not play? :p
Lord of the Rings Mafia
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I might not be quite as active as in other games in the last few months because of school, but I want to test how active I can be, and I should still be able to play well. It's also LOTR, so how can I not play? :p | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On September 16 2011 08:48 GMarshal wrote: Now I *really* want to play :-( Damn school. You have to get your priorities straight. :p | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On September 17 2011 05:42 chaoser wrote: Hear me Roar! | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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Mr. Wiggles
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I've read quickly through the thread, and will probably go back and read through some of it again later. Couple of things: I see a lot of people assuming that the forces of evil will have no ability to transfer the ring. Personally, I think this is a silly assumption to make. There are at least two characters I can think of off the top of my head who flavour-wise would be able to transfer the ring: Lurtz and the Ringwraiths. Both were sent out by Saruman and Sauron respectively to retrieve the ring for their masters, so it makes sense that they can take the ring, and then transfer it. The best thing, would be to assume that some scum players can transfer the ring, and some can't, just like town. To assume that your opponents don't at least have the same potential powers as you seems arrogant and unsafe. (As shown by some of the possible plans revolving around the ring) I'm a little out of it right now, so if I say anything weird or blatantly incorrect when talking about players, feel free to point it out. I know I did this reading through the thread, where in my head, I'd think someone was scummy-scum, but really I just forgot half of what they wrote or mixed them up with someone, or something equally silly. Right now, I think it's safe to say that WBG is either Smeagol/Gollum or just trolling. He should be pressured for his thoughts, and if he's not forth-coming, should be ignored or vigilante-shot. Responding to him and encouraging him by giving him attention just detract from the thread by filling it with spam. Also, on the topic of Gollum, I think that he's very likely third party. He'll probably work like an SK, able to make one kill a night, and wins when he kills the ring-bearer and receives the ring, removing himself and it from the game. This is what makes the most sense for me. As well, if there's the potential for a role that could just steal the ring, who could that be (Besides maybe Gollum)? I haven't read the books since ~10 years ago, and haven't watched the movies for a while, either. One person who it could make sense for, is Boromir, however, as I remember him wanting to steal the ring. I'm just asking this, because people are worried about killing a possible Gollum because they think he's the only one who can steal the ring. (And like he'd work for us, either :p) Right now, I don't like Drazerk's vote on WBG, because like I said, he's either trolling, or he's third-party with a posting restriction. So, that makes him a weak lynch target, and unless he starts contributing, a good vig target. Remember mafia can troll too, just look at Cosmic Horror. I think heist actually makes a good point about navillus. There's a difference between making a vote for pressure, and making a vote for someone acting scummy. What he did, is say he made a vote for a specific reason, and later retracts it and says it's for pressure. Last thing, there's been a lot of this: On September 18 2011 03:13 Derpsky wrote: Guys, stop talking/speculating about roles/set-up, it's spammy and non-contributory! *Proceeds to speculate about roles and set-up* Stop it >.< | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I'm a little out of it right now, so if I say anything weird or blatantly incorrect when talking about players, feel free to point it out. I know I did this reading through the thread, where in my head, I'd think someone was scummy-scum, but really I just forgot half of what they wrote or mixed them up with someone, or something equally silly. I think heist actually makes a good point about navillus. There's a difference between making a vote for pressure, and making a vote for someone acting scummy. What he did, is say he made a vote for a specific reason, and later retracts it and says it's for pressure. Yep, I did it! For some reason, I thought that Navillus was voting on the bandwagon, but it was really Drazerk, and I screwed up reading heist's post. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I never said it's spammy/non-contributory, so I'm not contradicting myself. I'm talking about the people who say that, and then contradict themselves right away. If you don't want to talk about set-up, say so and give reasons why. Don't say we shouldn't talk about set-up, and then talk about set-up. It honestly looks scummy to me, because you get to cast suspicion on every other player talking about set-up, while looking like you're contributing by... talking about set-up. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Like I said, it's better to ignore his ring stuff for now, and just treat him like a normal player. If he doesn't shape up his posting or give us relevancy, then we vig him. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On September 18 2011 08:24 iGrok wrote: I don't think WBG is trolling town. He's proven himself to be a good, very capable player in the games I've played with him. This makes him third party. Interesting. And I think I know what his wincon is. To get the ring!? =O I'm assuming that if he's Gollum/Smeagol, then he needs to get the ring, and at that point he wins, and he's probably removed from the game along with the ring. I'd also figure that his abilities are to either kill every night to get the ring that way, or just try to steal from people. Killing makes sense though, as Gollum strangles people. :p There's not much motivation for what he's doing from a mafia perspective. Best case scenario, is people just ignore him, but then he has no thread presence which would be needed later in the game. Worst case scenario is he just gets vig shot, which vigs would do, if they're intelligent. This leaves the possibility of being town or third-party. (Just wanted to expand on this, as I didn't properly explain it before) So, I don't think he's a great lynch target day 1, from the information side of things, unless we feel it's worth lynching to remove a potential KP from the game. The problem with this is we don't even know if he has a KP or not for sure, so I'd say no for now. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On September 18 2011 17:37 syllogism wrote: Currently I'd like to lynch someone who has clearly been around and posted some while not saying anything worthwhile. I'm not particularly interested in going after newer players for "bad logic", "bad plans" or perceived "contradictions" as they say almost nothing about their alignment when I can't tell whether I should expect better from them. Moreover I'd expect the scum team to consist of ~4 veterans and ~2 newer players, again making it more worthwhile to lynch a veteran. The obvious downside is that veterans tend to post more and as the pool of veterans, it gets easier to spot the ones who shouldn't still be alive later on. Regardless, the following people fit the above criteria: Jackal, GGQ, possibly iGrok In addition, Vain's posts thus far have been so devoid of content that he looks like a decent alternative, despite not exactly being a veteran. Drazerk apologizing for going away for a few hours looks somewhat off too, given that his activity hasn't exactly been very high anyway. Unfortunately a bunch of veterans are getting away with posting nothing at all (Jeejee/Sandroba/Palmar), but at least the latter two have an excuse due to not being around and I'm willing to ignore jeejee on day 1 due to his recent game history. Lynching WBG is a waste of time unless we've a reason to believe he has KP or that he could be a scum fake claiming. The former is unlikely given the OP specifically implies that there are roles with the ability to steal items and having both abilities might be redundant if we believe his win con is simply to obtain the ring. Further, it's rather unlikely a SK would open claim day 1 as we would obviously get suspicious if night KP/flavor indicates that there is a SK. As for the possibility of him being scum, the claim again makes no sense as Gollum is a very likely character to be present in the game and having gollum as a scum safe claim seems unfair. I suppose it's possible for gollum to be scum aligned rather than a neutral party, but again it makes no sense to claim as it still makes him a likely vig target. ##vote Jackal Haha, this looks so scummy to me. Instead of looking for people who are acting scummy, you want to try to lynch people based on usefulness. This isn't too bad in itself, but then instead of giving concrete examples for each of the players you listed, you bring up 5 other players and give reasons why they're good lynch targets as well (But not as good as the first three). Then you spend the latter half of your post talking about WBG instead of the 8 lynch targets you brought up. So, instead of focusing on one player who is scummy, you bring up 3 targets, give no specific reasons for voting any of them, and then add 5 other targets to that pile as well, before what looks like just a random vote among them. Talk about spreading out focus. FOS Syllogism Also, while I'm at it, Syllo, what do you think of prplhz? On September 18 2011 21:29 prplhz wrote: but you can hit scum on day1, you sholdn't just give up because of math. if you want to wait until the math is good then we'll have to wait until they outnumber us. lynching wbg because he's 3rd party is pretty stupid, we should hunt for scum instead. i already shared reasons for my vote on drh and i'm quite sure other people wrote pieces on nav and jack which i'm not gonna parrot. and then you are all like "lol someone was inactive and then active totally scummy" not really would you rather they shut their mouth and you could just go through with a 3rd party bandwagon? this is not creating a scumhunting environment. i'd kinda like palmar to say something because he's from iceland and that is indubitably the northernmost location of all participants of this game. also i'd like jack to do some scumhunting 'cause he's apparently also a veteran of sort. since this drh thing is going nowhere i'm gonna switch to jack ##Vote: Jackal58 on jack's most recent post, there is a third option with wbg, leave him be and see if he starts acting like a normal human being, maybe he's just frustrated with being VT for the 10th time in a row, maybe his mom just told him he had to clean his room, there are plenty of reasons for posting silly shit but lynching a guy solely because he's 3rd party is totally scum agenda. also, i'm not a big fan of your idea of giving the ring to random people and i'm pretty sure any townie with a brain wouldn't do that. Do you think that Dr. H is scum still? What about Jackal? You say that "this drh thing is going nowhere", so does that mean that you don't think he's scum now? Or just that you don't think he's scum because the bandwagon isn't going anywhere? There's not a ton of time left in the day, and based on people's schedules, pressure votes aren't going to do much for the rest of the day. So, do you think Jackal is scummy, or do you just want to pressure him to post? You don't say, and like I said, pressure votes aren't going to do much from here on out. ##Vote: prplhz From the three major candidates, you seem the most likely to be mafia, to me. The Jackal bandwagon is mainly being formed because he hasn't done too much, and because of the weird plan about the ring. However, I don't think this is that condemning, simply because of the fact that it's impossible because the ring can only be transferred at night. I think if the mafia really wanted to propose a plan with a chance to get the ring into their hands, they would have thought it out a bit better, especially if they're using Jackal, who would be one of their more experienced players, to propose it. It doesn't jive. As well, if either you or syllo flip red, I think we need to get a vig shot on WBG. I think he's third party, more so than mafia, but that doesn't mean the possibility doesn't exist. I couldn't think of a mafia motivation, but that doesn't mean there isn't one, especially when we don't know what kinds of roles they have. I'm saying this, because as you can see, the Jackal bandwagon starts forming with syllo and prplhz, and in both their posts, they are quick to defend WBG from the lynch. There's a definite connection between them if they're mafia. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On September 19 2011 05:05 syllogism wrote: I don't find any of the behaviour I noted scummy by itself, because most players on TL tend to be illogical. There are some players I hold to a higher standards, and indeed I find them easier to read. Contradictions can be scummy, but can often be attributed to poor logic by either reader or the author. Only four of the people I listed in my post were presented as lynch candidates, and the three names were clearly highlighted as the ones I'd focus on today. Twisting words if scummy behaviour, so either you misread or have an agenda; jeejee/palmar/sandroba were noted for their complete lack of thread presence and correctly so. Do you disagree? I have never seen you FoS someone and then vote for someone else, which is also curious. However, your scum play seems blander than this so perhaps it's just that I haven't seen you play town enough. You say: "Currently I'd like to lynch someone who has clearly been around and posted some while not saying anything worthwhile." I fail to see how jeejee/palmar/sandroba do not fit into that. What I inferred, is that you would include them in that, but aren't, because they gave excuses. Excuses are weak, though, as it just lets mafia hide. So, you list four people as lynch targets, and then add 3 more, who would be lynch targets according to your own definition, but gave excuses. This at a time, where if you want to get someone lynched, you need to direct focus on them to get the ball rolling. Introducing several new targets doesn't do this, it only muddles the waters and spreads out focus onto more people. It's a tactic for misdirection. That's why I find it scummy. As well, all your cases are incredibly weak, due to again, a lack of specific accusations against them. You just throw them all under the same umbrella, that makes it so that any pressure you may produce is going to be incredibly weak. Also, "A term (abbreviated FoS) used to formally indicate "you're being watched." It can be an implicit way of saying "I might vote for you"; typically in cases where the person doing the fingering does not want to actually vote the suspicious player." http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FOS It means I'm suspicious of you, not that I think you're the best lynch target of the day. A FOS is not a vote, it's a way to create pressure, which is why we've entered into this current conversation. I found prplhz fairly suspicious, quite similar to Vain, as his early posts were complete fluff, but his case against Dr.H seemed genuine, even if I disagree with most of the content. If you haven't noticed, I'm nowadays quite against lynching newer players unless the case amounts to something other than "he isn't making sense". Non-contributing veterans are generally better targets. The connection you attempt to draw between me and WBG is pretty hilarious, given I'm the one who got him to claim third party and his alleged win con, which clearly made him a lynch candidate and a very likely eventual vig target. As soon as WBG started asking for the ring, it was fairly obvious he was acting as though he were a third party. I don't think that he's mafia right now, but that doesn't exclude the possibility. Mafia are at an information advantage, and there may be roles for which it is beneficial for a vig/role-cop to visit WBG, like a mafia PGO, which may happen if he is not lynched. You also missed the conditional. If one of you or prplhz flip scum, then I think there's a lot better possibility for WBG to be mafia, with some ulterior motive for appearing as a third party. Do you think switching vote is scummy behaviour? Is it scummier than throwing your vote away when it becomes clear your candidate of choice isn't going to get lynched? What is the scum motivation for switching, unless WBG is scum? I don't think switching your vote is scummy. However, calling someone scum, and then completely giving up when a bandwagon doesn't form is (In the case of prplhz). You should at least push for you target, not make one post, give up, and then hop on a different wagon. And, I already answered your question. I said if one of you two flip scum, then we should look at WBG as being scum. Also, for the moment I really want to flip prplhz. There's been at least two counter-bandwagons formed already, which raises my suspicions that he's mafia. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I don't think scum would be dumb enough to do that. If the point of the plan was to get the ring, do you really think they would have looked over that major detail? Based on the number of players, there should be maybe 5-6 mafia (maybe less, rough estimate), so it seems unlikely that none of them would catch it. As well, it seems unlikely that if it was a mafia ploy they would have had Jackal deliver the plan. Even if one could give away the ring during the day, it would draw a lot of attention to the person proposing it, due to certain short-comings. It makes more sense to get one of the lesser experienced mafia members to propose it, because heat being drawn to them isn't as bad, and it can more easily be passed off as not thinking it through enough. Next, I'm not sure I get what you're saying, still. Are you saying that scum were voting for you, and then Jackal came up with a reason to get the ring to you? Or are you saying scum were voting you with the purpose of getting the ring? It makes a major difference. Also, while drinking my chocolate milk, I remembered I wanted to point out prplhz making a case on Dr. H, but never really pursuing it, while Dr. H laid low for a while and tunneled on to WBG. Will have an effect later, when any of them start flipping. If prplhz flips red, it makes Dr. H more suspicious to me, because of the feigned pressure, and if Dr. H flips red, it makes WBG likely to be not mafia, and just a scapegoat for them to pretend to disagree on. On September 19 2011 10:40 wherebugsgo wrote: I like how one of the biggest lynch targets of yesterday, Jackal, is conveniently missing from that list of his. That's cause Jackal didn't vote for Erandorr, lol. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On September 19 2011 10:55 Radfield wrote: Wiggles, despite the fact that I appreciate you pointing out my mistake, and that I chuckled at your chocolate milk comment, that big ol' wall of text contains almost nothing. You're talking about possible scum motivation(wifom) and making connections that are very flimsy. A hundred connections like that could be made at this point in the game. Hmmm? I'm spending most of it asking WBG stuff. From what I've read, he's saying that mafia were trying to bandwagon him to get the ring, and Jackal delivered the plan. (I asked him to clarify if this is wrong) From this, he extrapolates that Jackal is mafia, and the people voting for him are mafia. However, there's a few problems with this. -Mafia wouldn't be dumb enough to actually deliver the plan after it was said that the ring could only be passed at night. The four votes on WBG from DoctorHelvetica, Drazerk, iGrok, and Pyo came before that revelation, so mafia could have just called it off, not followed through with proposing a plan that was obviously wrong. -If it was a mafia plan, they probably wouldn't have had Jackal deliver it. Why put one of your players who has a meta of not doing much until day 3 at the earliest into the spotlight and into danger on day 1? Much better to let one of the newer members propose it, so that they can get let off the hook more easily by playing the "noob card" if it isn't accepted. It was Jackal acting alone, not a collective mafia plan, so I'm saying WBG can't use it to say that Jackal is mafia, and all the people voting him are mafia as well. It's possible, but Jackal proposing that plan isn't a good enough reason for thinking so. Not WIFOM, just thinking about what the logical play from mafia would be. (inb4 mafia don't always act logically, because I know that, but then that's WIFOM, I'm still on the first level) As well, I'm drawing the connection, in case I get shot tonight and no one remembers it. It seems important to me for if prplhz flips red. Good DT targets for tonight: prplhz: Escaped the lynch, had two separate counter-wagons form against him. Feigned pressure against Dr. H. syllogism: Tried to form a counter-wagon against the prplhz lynch with a very broad and unfocused accusation of many players, hoping one would catch. Dr. H: Had weird pressure on him by prplhz, disappeared for a major chunk of the day, and didn't do too much besides argue about voting blocs and tunneling WBG. Radfield: Successfully formed the counter-wagon on Errandor. WBG: Not sure what he is, might be a mafia PGO or equivalent, find a way to let us know if you visit him. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
So, of the people voting for you, which were the mafia, and what are your reasons for believing so? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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On September 20 2011 03:00 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I'd rather save all the convincing arguments until daytime where they will be useful, and I can throw my initial vote in alongside them. Why aren't they useful at night? As a townie, you want to get your reads out before the day time somehow, in case you get shot, but if you think they're very important or game-changing, right before the deadline, so that mafia can't react and change their hits to cause chaos or WIFOM. Waiting until day is a good way to get shot without letting your opinion be known, so I'm not sure why you aren't worried about that. Or maybe you aren't worried about being shot... Hmmm... | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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 gg, Good luck, town. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
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=O  | ||
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