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[D] Competitive 2v2 Maps

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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darien_jarkeld
Profile Joined July 2011
United States9 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-27 14:54:19
July 21 2011 22:32 GMT
#1
Starcraft 2 competitive team play is not taken very seriously by the community. People give many reasons for this: the game is balanced around 1v1, therefore departures from this format are unbalanced; there is too much going on with more then 2 players for it to be cast effectively; it takes more effort to train as a team then to train in 1s; and playing 1v1s requires a different skill set team games so progammers have to choose one or the other. While these are all probable contributors, it is my opinion that the game balance, and the resulting meta-game, that exists in team games is the most significant problem that exists in team formats.

A fundamental rule of competitive Starcraft is that you should not be disadvantaged when the game is created because of your chosen race. If this rule is broken, random chance may determine the outcome of the game, especially in highly competitive circuits. This can drastically reduce the entertainment provided to both spectators and to gamers. For instance, in the current 2v2 format, many people argue that the TZ race combination is stronger then the others because of blue flame hellions and speedlings. Additionally, many people think of 2v2s as a "cheese fest" because the games are often won by abusing strange unit combinations or massing unusual units.

I believe that 2v2 has the potential to be as competitive as 1v1. Part of the problem with 2v2s is that there is twice as much going on, and therefore the game is just more chaotic then a 1v1. It becomes harder to pin your opponents on a build. Although it is difficult, practice and good communication between team members can reduce the impact of this chaos. However, part of Starcraft is surprising your opponent so controlled amounts of chaos are healthy for the game. Even with good communication and polished teamwork, 2v2s seem to be missing something of the epic struggle for supremacy that exists in 1v1s. 2v2s are their own game format, separate from 1v1s, and must be recognized, designed for, and studied as such.

The purpose of this thread is to examine new genres of maps, and the significant effect they could have on 2v2s. In order to provide a competitive format for team games, I want to work with you, the community, to determine what the guiding principles for 2v2 map designers should be. I have come with a few general guidelines, a few notes about existing ladder maps, and two new potential genres:


General Guidelines

Attacking should be harder then defending
Allies should be rewarded for supporting their allies.
Teams should have access to many different viable long term and short term strategies.


Existing Genres

+ Show Spoiler +
Split

The split genre is the de facto standard in 2v2 ladder play. These maps consist of four separate bases where the two allies are close to one another without sharing a base. These maps often have a shared choke point that are beyond the ramp of either ally's base.

These maps favor builds and units that are able to take map control early and keep their opponents bases separated, such as the infamous speedling/hellion combo. They generally punish static defenses, because opponents can simply choose to ignore them. This means that for static defenses to be as effective, players need twice as many as in a regular 1v1. This coupled with the ability of armies to split allies up makes it very hard for games to progress into the mid or late games. One of the four players is often eliminated very early on this style of map.

Fortress

The fortress genre is the more macro oriented map type in ladder play. These maps consist of a single shared base that is easily defended.

Expanding is often an issue in fortress style maps. Expansions are usually very easy or very difficult to defend. This removes the cost/benefit decision making that is a very important and interesting element of 1v1s. These maps encourage their players to turtle in the easy bases then power to a large army. Then when the armies clash, one team wins, but a lot of the early back and forth exchange between players is lost because it is difficult to harass a fortress.



New Genres

+ Show Spoiler +
Castle

The castle genre is a modification of the fortress style. The purpose of this genre is to encourage gradual base expansion during the course of the game and to provide different roles amoung team members. These maps are similar in design to some of the larger 1v1 maps, where each starting location has a main and an easily defendable natural expansion (Think Tal'darim Altar). The difference from 1v1s to 2v2s is that one player's main is in the protected main, and the second player's main starts in the natural expansion. The team's third base should be fairly easy to defend just as a natural expansion is often easy to defend in 1v1s. Each additional base should be more vulnerable then the last.

Due to the initial setup of this style of map one player is more protected then the other. The player that controls the natural expansion has an incentive to be more defensive, because their investment in defense will protect both players and they are more exposed then their ally. This could potentially lead to early pools, forge first, or bunker reenforced wall-ins depending on the amount of aggression that they are able to scout. Meanwhile, this sort of setup can provide the protected ally with greater safety and secrecy, giving them more options like fast teching or economy powering in the early game.

This setup also allows the protected ally to provide support to their ally without exposing themselves. Additionally, if things go badly for the player in the natural expansion, he can retreat with his workers and any remaining units into his ally's base until they have enough power push their opponents back. This gives the exposed player a way to cut his losses without completely throwing the game.

Finally, expansions are available to the team one at a time with each expansion being less defendable. This makes strategic decisions like choosing choke points and expanding a team decision. The team needs to choose the when, where, and who of expanding with each expansion.


Outpost

The outpost genre encourages very balanced 1v1 style early games that transition into 2v2 style mid and late games. These maps are very large maps where each player is separated from their ally and one of their enemies by a very large distance. However each player is separated by a standard amount from their other enemy. These maps should contain 4-5 expansions per player, and each expansion beyond the natural should provide greater exposure to an allied attack from both enemies.

The setup of this map should prevent early cooperative rushes because rushing with both armies will leave one of the attacking team members very vulnerable to a counterattack from the remaining opponent. Additionally, the very long walking distance should make early rush timings more difficult, by giving the defending player at least one extra round of units before the 2nd opponent arrives.

Since each expansion after the natural is closer to the middle of the map, each time a player expands they increase their vulnerability to joint attacks from their opponents, and they increase their ability to join with their ally's army. This should encourage a 2v2 mid and late game as the armies and bases start to collide in the middle of the map.

Example distance to close opponent:
[image loading]

Example distance to far opponent:
[image loading]



What Now?

I am currently working on a couple of maps that will fit into the genres that I have defined here. If any of you are interested in working together to build, balance, or play on new 2v2 genres and maps, please PM me or post here letting me know of your interest. If there is enough interest in this initiative, I will organize 2v2 playing sessions and tournaments to refine this branch of Starcraft 2. Also, please give your feedback and thoughts on how you believe that 2v2 maps could be engineered to promote higher level play.
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
July 28 2011 01:16 GMT
#2
I suppose I could help with the map making process but I don't know much about 2v2s, you play on NA right?
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
July 28 2011 01:33 GMT
#3
This is fantastic. I've got to make more 2v2 maps, all I have is some really bad map called Brude Wartress.
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darien_jarkeld
Profile Joined July 2011
United States9 Posts
July 28 2011 01:54 GMT
#4
Yeah, I am on NA. I am just finishing up some changes on my first outpost style map. I will probably put up a post on it later tonight. Part of the experiment is to find out what new kind of maps we can come up with, so it's a learning process for all of us
cubert
Profile Joined June 2010
Russian Federation94 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-28 13:03:11
July 28 2011 13:00 GMT
#5
The new 8-players map would be pretty good, if there wasn't shared ramp. Shared ramp kills 2x2. It seems safe non-rush maps on a low level. But on a high level shared maps are most cheesy and easy to push. Almost all map pool is shitty. 3 tanks can control more than half of a map.
2v2 needs big size maps with many possibilities to harass in macro. Would be good if you make good maps and blizzard or tourneys add it. Blizzard don't have idea of 2x2.
LonelyCat
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom130 Posts
July 28 2011 14:00 GMT
#6
I don't know which category you'd put Tempest in - there is a small defendable shared choke but the bases are not shared and naturals are quite exposed (for a 2v1 push). However, the centre of the map with the xel'naga seems to allow for play more like 1v1 (eg. contains, 3rd bases, map splitting etc.) however I'd say a structure like this (ie. 8 player) but like metalopolis (a central area with expansions and ramps + 2 xel'naga) in the movement/splitting of the map since cross/'close air' positions would allow for 3rds etc to be taken but it still allows for some early game pressure seems like it might be good. I dunno. I think 2v2 needs to take a look at 1v1 maps to get more of an idea how people 'want' the game to be played, people prefer longer games with harass opportunities than fast rushes - maps like Tel'darim, shattered (non-close), metal (non-close) etc. seem to give the most fun games (at least to watch) due to the size and expansion/base layout, its just a matter of time til 2v2 finds this, I think a lack of tournament interest doesn't help it either.
Sunrunner
Profile Joined July 2011
United States80 Posts
July 28 2011 14:08 GMT
#7
So is the goal of outpost basically to have two 1v1s on the same map in the early game?
cubert
Profile Joined June 2010
Russian Federation94 Posts
July 28 2011 14:14 GMT
#8
LonelyCat
Tempest is one of the most weird maps. Hard to take natural, gas on natural can be easy killed by tank from another location. For TZ game is usually over when they take xel naga. +10 possible expands against +2. Tanks, broodlords, air control, 2 sensor towers and gg on 20 - 30th minute.
LonelyCat
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom130 Posts
July 28 2011 14:18 GMT
#9
I know cubert, thats why I say the idea is good but its too easy to hold the whole map - you want something more like metalopolis (from the 1v1 pool) in structure to allow more movement about the map but I think i prefer the 8 player map structure for more bases. Its a delicate balance I guess (I'm only diamond 2v2 so I don't know all the high level details sorry)
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
July 28 2011 14:42 GMT
#10
I love playing team games (competitive 2s) and I like what you're saying. I support your efforts
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
July 28 2011 16:20 GMT
#11
I currently have two 2v2 maps in progress, just based on ideas I've had.

In 2v2 maps, I feel that it's best if both allies have equivalent spawns, so there's no randomness in which player gets which base. Along with this, a lot of Blizzard team maps have an odd number of expansions, causing one member of the team to get completely screwed over because they have no where to expand. This isn't as big of a deal in very high level competitive 2v2, because the teams will practice and plan enough to take these things into account, but I think it's still important.

I also think in general expansions should be a little less often than 1v1, so that there's less stuff for each player, so it doesn't become too hectic.

As with 1v1 maps, I think the expansion patterns are important. Each player should be able to continue taking bases which get gradually harder to defend, without a "X number of bases really easy, then it is extremely hard" which we see in some maps. In general, I think this is more needed in 1v1 maps as well, I think it is the main reason people like metalopolis.

I really think with the right maps that 2v2 could be very good. In BW, the game was as balanced as it was and they adjusted the maps as needed. Even if SC2 is "balanced for 1v1" the right maps should make 2v2 pretty good.
all's fair in love and melodies
Toboe
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States276 Posts
July 28 2011 18:11 GMT
#12
I love 2v2. I play it a lot, I think about it a lot. Right now there's not a good pool of resources for playing 2v2, so the leap to 1v1 is still a bit large. If the 2v2 community could get a good foundation, it would only be a good thing for getting people up to speed and transitioning into 1v1, and good for sc2 in general. So having said that, I'm going to rant here about 2v2 map design, and even if some ideas may be wrong, I hope that they'll get you thinking about 2v2 map design even more critically and generate some ideas for you.
+ Show Spoiler +

On July 22 2011 07:32 darien_jarkeld wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Split

The split genre is the de facto standard in 2v2 ladder play. These maps consist of four separate bases where the two allies are close to one another without sharing a base. These maps often have a shared choke point that are beyond the ramp of either ally's base.

These maps favor builds and units that are able to take map control early and keep their opponents bases separated, such as the infamous speedling/hellion combo. They generally punish static defenses, because opponents can simply choose to ignore them. This means that for static defenses to be as effective, players need twice as many as in a regular 1v1. This coupled with the ability of armies to split allies up makes it very hard for games to progress into the mid or late games. One of the four players is often eliminated very early on this style of map.



I would be wary only having this analysis of when designing 'Split' 2v2 maps. Most people play this kind of map completely incorrectly: they get relatively immobile units and they keep them above their ramp and often times entirely behind a wall of buildings without having any vision. You can't expect to help your ally when your army is in the middle of your main you don't know the other team is attacking until their at your ally's ramp. Further, you can't expect to get to your ally in time when you scout the other team making fast units (i.e. ling/hellion) and you're teching to tanks or some nonsense - that's just asking to have one of your mains sacked. In any case, your units should, at the very least, be at the bottom of your ramp, ready to help your ally, or move up your ramp and delay until your ally gets there.

2v2 is a different beast from 1v1, especially in the early game. On 'Split' maps, you have two bases to defend, and if the enemy sends all of their units at one base, you must have all of your units there to defend it (that means both allies must be there). Some openings and unit compositions from 1v1 are far more risky because of this, and gambling on putting static defense down blindly instead of just getting more mobile units can end up being a complete waste of money and cost you the game.

With that in mind, I would suggest that 'Split' maps are badly designed for 2v2 when they:
1. make scouting early pressure take too much time to respond correctly.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is a touchy subject since you have to draw a line at what a safe 2v2 opening build is for each race, but what I'm getting at is: on 8 player maps with split naturals and short rush distances, you MUST open your safest build for the match-up until the find the other team, and you may scout last only to find you're up against a greedy opening. This lack of ability to scout and react means the game turns into a coin flip where ultra-greedy and ultra-safe builds are equally likely to yield a win, which actually promotes rushing.

Look at The Boneyard (even though it's not 'Split'): You can double 6 pool and know where your opponents are before your lings hatch because the mains are close enough that both players overlord scouting their closest mineral patch will determine the location of the other team. However this map more than makes up for that with an easily-walled-off shared choke. This means one player can fast expand to the back natural while the other person does a standard opening and/or walls off.

2. don't provide a contestable way to see an enemy attack coming early enough to respond to it
+ Show Spoiler +
e.g. too many side routes not covered by xel'naga towers for the distance between the mains - the shorter the distance, the fewer the routes the attacker should have to pick from

3. limit the ability to mobilize between ally bases either through long distance or poorly shaped spaces that do not favor a defensive stance on the area between the ramps of the allies.

4. do not provide ample time to delay before your ally can get there to help you.
+ Show Spoiler +
I think either there should only be one entrance to the main whose choke size, wallability, and usefulness of static defense is based on the distance between the teams, or, in the case of having backdoor rocks into the main, the space around the mineral line should be designed to be easily defended with some simcity long enough for the ally to get there.

Gutterhulk was set up to have incredibly good simcity around the main for all three races, but the space between ally's mains is still a bit too awkward to traverse when you're under attack and it was too easy to unscoutably change your attack trajectory at the last second before the defending team could respond in time.


tl;dr: You can't play a 'Split' map like other maps, and because of that most people think they're too hard to play. I think they're even harder to design, and honestly Blizzard has pumped out a better quality set of 'Split' 2v2 maps than 1v1 maps overall.
Immortals are your friend, you can tell by the way they waddle at you
Saishuuheiki
Profile Joined November 2010
United States188 Posts
July 28 2011 19:38 GMT
#13
First, I believe you're missing one of the subtleties some of the 2v2 maps have:
One player from each team having a back-door (rocks) entrance. While you may not want your map to have this, it does affect tactics by having one person be more defensive than the other.

Second, there's a map type I've seen in the custom blizzard maps that I didn't see you mention. The name eludes me but it has rocks splitting each team into two pairs of two. To visualize it, there pathing shape of the map is like an H where the teams are top 4 vs bottom 4 with two on each point, and the top points and bottom points separated by destructible rocks.

You could easily apply this to a 2v2 situation by having destructible rocks between the allies bases, meaning each ally has to be somewhat self sufficient in defense initially, at least until the rocks are broken.

Now this is quite similar to the outpost style you have listed, but I feel that when the two sides are that far apart, it actually encourages your opponent to rush. If one side joins together and beats one opponent, even if the other opponent counter-attacked and kills one player, he's at a serious disadvantage. This is because the initial attackers will have their armies together, and together will usually have a larger force than the single opponent who counterattacked and destroyed 1 base. Thus, both sides should have similar economies (1 base left for each team) but one side has a larger army, thus a huge lead. The second problem with this is a large early advantage for zerg, and then terran. This is because they both have access to fast units (zergling, siege tank) which can do run-by or counter-attacks. This can result in a serious handicap on the map for protoss. Imagine two zerg vs two protoss, where the two zergs can easily join their armies and swarm over one protoss while the other can only sit by and watch. The solution to this is that larger maps generally have the two bases for a side start close to each other.
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