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Hi All,
2400 Master here.
Having started as a BW player, I am still used to going Forge FE in the majority of my PvZ where the map allows it. I've gotten decent at it, and even decent at holding ling-all ins with probe pulls warp-in wall-offs. My next question is: what next?
In my mind, there are 3 potential responses a zerg do after a successful Forge FE (assume defensive cannons, not cannon rush):
1) Quick hydra-break
2) Muta harass
3) Quick 3rd/4th
This isn't too different than the BW options, but I seem to be having a lot more issues than in BW.
I fear the hydra-break so much that I feel obliged to tech quickly to 2 base colossus. This is because storm isn't nearly as good against hydras as it was in BW, and with the relative uselessness of archons I don't feel safe against mutas without making a lot of stalkers. Stalkers are quite bad against hydras, so I feel myself tunneled into going 2 base stalker/colossus. For some reason, cannons don't seem as good against hydras, plus if you sink a ton into cannons you will have issues punishing a quick 3rd and also taking your own 3rd.
In BW I could handle mutas by making a few sairs, which also doubled as scouts. Phoenix aren't nearly as good against mutas as sairs, so I rarely go 2 base stargate like I did in BW. In fact, my only stargate-based PvZ build in SC2 is a 1 base, nearly all-in thing with a quick void and a phoenix to follow up. DTs and HT have separate tech paths so I don't use DT/Phoenix the way you could use DT/sair.
With the crummy sair replacement, crummy archon splash, and removal of maelstrom, I just don't feel like there's any way to beat a zerg who is able to get a large enough stack of mutas, so I feel obliged to mass stalkers and keep the muta count down, but then I might die to hydras... blargh.
So basically I need a transition that:
1) Allows me to defend 2 base hydra
2) Allows me to defend against mutas
3) Allows me to punish a quick 3rd
I've read some threads about going Void/Colossus, but I'm so skeptical... every time I try that I never have enough gas and I feel like I'm wide open to mass-muta.
Halp?
-far
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I've had similar problems and one thing that helps me is to get sentries ASAP to build up energy, then hallucination right after warpgate and scout with hallucinated phoenix. My problem with the forge FE is that there is a long window where you give up any semblance of map control and you are basically playing blind. The timing works out so you can scout after you've got 3 gates or so up and make a choice. It also works out so that usually you'll catch a spire in production. I prefer to respond with 2 stargates personally but you can do whatever you prefer.
(mid diamond here though, so ymmv)
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I think the most cost effective unit combo against a zerg is vr/colossi with a dash of phoenix.
-on cross position Shakuras.. I am totally comfortable going 15 nex, then forge/gateway into vr/phoenix (sometimes skipping wg until I have my 3rd up.
-make sentries out of ur 1 gate but only when you can afford them(your focus is vr/phoenix).. u should have enough canons to hold light roach pushes and a vr out in time for a heavy roach push.
-this gives me fast scout, intel, and a chance to fight for map control - thus allowing me to see when zerg takes his 3rd
and once u have 2-3 vr you can now start sniping overlords and keeping zerg in his base.
there was a post a few weeks ago about this but I can summarize it here..
once u have 2 stargate u have to make a choice
a. add a 3rd stargate if zerg decides he is going to muta/corrupter
b. transition into 1 robo colosi if he is going hydra -- while still making vr/phoenix (with extra gas) eventually adding a 2nd robo when you secure your 3rd base.
b/c ur army is so gas based you will have plenty of extra minerals for extra cannons, I usually take my 3rd while I am harassing zerg's 3rd and I will usually put down cannons first.. then build nexus. sure 1-3 cannons wont stand a chance against 10-15 hydras BUT 6 cannons and phoneix vr backing them up will stop hydras.
the focus of this build is to get ur 3rd up, a 200/200 vr/colossi army and sweep the map of zerg expos before he has his 4th/5th. He will be sending wave after wave of stuff at ur death ball as u push around the map so take ur 4th and then you can even add more production buildings because the shortcoming of a build like this is that it take so long to replace ur powerful tech units.
in closing.. u asked
So basically I need a transition that:
1) Allows me to defend 2 base hydra
2) Allows me to defend against mutas
3) Allows me to punish a quick 3rd
and 1: the extra canons/a couple sentry and harassment of his base with vr stops the hydra
2: the heavy phoenix/vr competes for map control vs muta play but you WILL need a 3rd stargate to keep up in production
3: punish his 3rd with vr harass around the map, try not to get stuck ina corner and lose them to hydra. This is a slow build up strat where you cant afford to lose units carelessly
HTH
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blink does good for the mutas and punishing 3rd
5-6 gate blink/+1a and a robo is what I usually do with a forge FE, I drop my third as I push out and since you got a forge 2 cannons at the mineral line (you should have a few cannons at natural sim city style anyways).
If you see hydras and dont want to overcommit back out tech to collossi, if you see mutas you can handle small-mid size numbers before the critical mass kicks in with the stalkers, but then you have to go into HT/archons or you can try double stargate phoenix(havent tried that yet)
hope that helps 3k diamond that cant get promoted if that matters
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I (~2500 Masters) Nexus first FE a lot in PvZ on Scrap Station & Shakuras, but first off if you forge FE IMO it is almost always beneficial for you to offensive cannon and prevent their natural rather than just use it to secure your own in the long run.
Now personally I only have 2 openers after FE, and that's double stargate and 6-gate and both are safe openers with their own strengths and weaknesses.
Stargate Opener:
-Early voids to punish roach pushes and early 3rds.
-Access to phoenixes that will absolutely destroy muta openers.
-Early voids can stall hydras enough for you to get colossi out since they are slow off creep. For example on scrap station it is guaranteed that the zerg player will break through the rocks in the middle if they are going to assault your base w/ hydras, and you can pick off hydras and buy a lot of time by harassing them while they do this. Even if they do get to your base cannons + voids can hold off any early hydra push if you were constantly producing voids while you tech to colossi (I always throw down my robo shortly after my 2 stargates are done and I toss down my robo bay once I spot the hydra den).
As for 6-gate it will hit them b/w 9-10 mins which is before any significant number of mutas or hydras are out, or before they will be able to reap any significant resource advantage from an early 3rd. I highly recommend researching hallucination after warpgate to scout.
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Thanks guys.
My issue is that with a Void/colossus/cannon build, I feel confined to 2 bases. Certainly I can void harass and stall, but I have gotten destroyed by speedlings/roaches/mutas denying my 3rd base for a long time. I somehow don't think I can use phoenix and voidrays to compete for map control because one mistake could lose me a unit worth 250/150.
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So basically I need a transition that:
1) Allows me to defend 2 base hydra
2) Allows me to defend against mutas
3) Allows me to punish a quick 3rd
6gate does all that.
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I am a proponent for fast blink stalkers for map control followed by the expansion. Going head to head with Zerg in a macro race isn't favorable for toss, and toss can hit nice timings with early blink stalkers that expanding afterward is actually better than expanding early because of how you force Zerg to react. Also, colossus sentry is pretty immobile; no wonder you feel like you can't push out beyond 2 bases! I prefer HT/Immortal, you get more harassment opportunities with that comp as well
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137991-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple
This game was played early in the morning, so the initial build order (that ends when blink is done) is rough and the transition is even rougher (forge + expand + infrastructure update), but you get the idea. I didn't even build a sentry that game, and it was in master's league! You need map control vs Zerg, and phoenix usually do it, but Blink stalkers plus Obs are a comfortable option as well
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On February 12 2011 05:25 tehemperorer wrote:I am a proponent for fast blink stalkers for map control followed by the expansion. Going head to head with Zerg in a macro race isn't favorable for toss, and toss can hit nice timings with early blink stalkers that expanding afterward is actually better than expanding early because of how you force Zerg to react. Also, colossus sentry is pretty immobile; no wonder you feel like you can't push out beyond 2 bases! I prefer HT/Immortal, you get more harassment opportunities with that comp as well http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137991-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-templeThis game was played early in the morning, so the initial build order (that ends when blink is done) is rough and the transition is even rougher (forge + expand + infrastructure update), but you get the idea. I didn't even build a sentry that game, and it was in master's league! You need map control vs Zerg, and phoenix usually do it, but Blink stalkers plus Obs are a comfortable option as well
I'm not asking about blink stalker push. I can do that just fine. I just prefer to play macro games.
Edit: I'm pretty sure my blink stalker play is clean enough for now. Here:
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On February 12 2011 01:35 farseerdk wrote:
So basically I need a transition that:
1) Allows me to defend 2 base hydra
2) Allows me to defend against mutas
3) Allows me to punish a quick 3rd
-far
Hi there, You have a very good point, and i've hit this wall myself multiple times, i also believe that every macro protoss should read your post because there are some very good ideas in this thread. If i may add my 2 cents. I my self prefer not to 1 base against a zerg on any map, as it's very unstable when first push is held off. In the macro openings, either :
-Nexus First (15/16 Nex into Forge/Gateway)
-Forge FE
-3 gate sentry expand
are my normal openings. I believe the problem occures in your play when you are surprised by the tech path of the zerg without enough time to get proper defences in place, so you're normally playing in the dark for the first 10 minutes, having given up map control to macro up. I believe you're playing too blindly
My suggestion is to try opening 3 gate sentry expand, instead of the forge FE a few times (obviously forge FE has it's place), right after WG's finish (having used 1 chrono on cyber, the rest on nexus), you should have 1 zealot, 2 sentries, and a round of 3 more sentries getting warped in, at this time grab your nexus and research hallucination, throw down your fourth gateway, pylons and forge, research +1 and stay defensive, warping in sentries until about the 8ish range. at the time hallucination finishes you should have plenty of energy to get a pheonix scout and be able to hold off roach all-ins. send to main and nat, if you see hydra den, obviously immediatly go the robo rout, adding stargates for VR's after you take your third, if spire go double SG or twilight for blink and do a 6 gate timing push which should hit before mutas are out in numbers
the sentry expand leaves you safe from roach all-in's, as well as burrow roaches as you get an early forge for your +1, and always throw down a blind cannon at your nat for detection, obviously you've got decent micro having perfected forge FE"ing and playing in masters. the colo will be up before a hydra break if you scout the den, and the spire rout is easily dealt with if you go for a 6 gate timing with blink, I know you're not a fan of the blink stalker stuff as you like to play more macro style games, but it is a viable option when a 2 base spire is scouted, because of how the timings work out
In short, i dont believe that there is "one build" like you were asking for, that will cover the roach all-in, quick hydra bust, and mass muta build like you would prefer, but i believe the 3 gate expand is strong, and has great defences to the zerg builds that come a little faster then others, leaving you time to scout his mid game plan and act accordingly
I hope this helped, HF and GL
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I've really liked the way that a forge FE works in a different way then you (your a lot better and I'd wish you would post some replays so I can see your master level cannon placement) I tend to put a mild cannon harass at the zergs main forcing him to stay one base a while longer (if his second hatch is down already I put 2 more cannons in range of it) after this I've seen a lot, I mean a LOT of mass muta. I think this is because by the time he takes down the cannons rush with non air hes behind enough so that my 2 base macro is enough to just push and win straight out.
I'm not saying I'm really any good at defending it but I've felt that the 2 cannons (or 4) there allow me to then put down 3 cannons at each of my base's while the minerals surge before I can get some production buildings up. My pvz at this point forces me defensively with 6 gate- blink until I can macro up enough units to defend against this and then put down my 3rd with a lot of cannons at that base for when he finds it. I use my gas I've stored up from building just cannons and a nexus to put down the tech structure's (vr/colossi right now) I need to form a death ball and then roll him down. I saw this on day9 one day and have been doing fairly well when I've kept my macro up and don't make any mistakes. I will say I've never lost a game after my 3rd has gotten up running. have had it taken down a few times but by then had a deathball up and running.
I hope that helps please tell me the problems with this so i can refine it a bit more. I've forgotten about actually using my forge for upgrades and that +1 armor sounds very very nice against mutas.
Edit: lol you posted a replay when I was posting. will watch
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On February 12 2011 06:16 sermokala wrote:Edit: lol you posted a replay when I was posting. will watch
I posted me using blink stalker pressure into expand, not using forge FE. I'm at the library right now. When I get home I'll dig up a replay of me using a forge FE.
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On February 12 2011 05:14 farseerdk wrote:
Thanks guys.
My issue is that with a Void/colossus/cannon build, I feel confined to 2 bases. Certainly I can void harass and stall, but I have gotten destroyed by speedlings/roaches/mutas denying my 3rd base for a long time. I somehow don't think I can use phoenix and voidrays to compete for map control because one mistake could lose me a unit worth 250/150.
In my mind Scrap Station and Shakuras (and Jungle Basin before it was taken out of the map pool) are absolutely the best map pools to FE on because not only of the long rush distances, you are also able to both harass early 3rds and safely take a 3rd yourself due to air dominance (e.g. the island expo on Scrap, and through the backdoor rocks on Shakuras). I've learned this the hard way trying to FE on maps like Blistering and LT.
edit: And just to clarify, the main strength IMO of a FE, and thus the real reason you FE, is for a specific timing attack where you need the earlier resource surplus (6-gate), or to take advantage of your use of mineral-only defenses early (cannons) to skip the gas-heavy stalkers and sentries needed for a traditional 3-gate expand. This allows you to make a void/colossi death ball (albeit w/ zealots instead of stalkers and sentries) a lot earlier in the game. So even on maps where grabbing a 3rd is not easy, you are not delaying your 3rd that much compared to a traditional 3-gate expand build, it just feels that way because you are spending a lot more time saturated on 2-bases since you got your natural a lot earlier. If you double stargate into double robo you should be safe enough to grab your 3rd after 1 or 2 rounds of colossi production (e.g. 2-4 colossi).
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On February 12 2011 05:42 BackTrack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 01:35 farseerdk wrote:
So basically I need a transition that:
1) Allows me to defend 2 base hydra
2) Allows me to defend against mutas
3) Allows me to punish a quick 3rd
-far Hi there, You have a very good point, and i've hit this wall myself multiple times, i also believe that every macro protoss should read your post because there are some very good ideas in this thread. If i may add my 2 cents. I my self prefer not to 1 base against a zerg on any map, as it's very unstable when first push is held off. In the macro openings, either : -Nexus First (15/16 Nex into Forge/Gateway) -Forge FE -3 gate sentry expand are my normal openings. I believe the problem occures in your play when you are surprised by the tech path of the zerg without enough time to get proper defences in place, so you're normally playing in the dark for the first 10 minutes, having given up map control to macro up. I believe you're playing too blindly My suggestion is to try opening 3 gate sentry expand, instead of the forge FE a few times (obviously forge FE has it's place), right after WG's finish (having used 1 chrono on cyber, the rest on nexus), you should have 1 zealot, 2 sentries, and a round of 3 more sentries getting warped in, at this time grab your nexus and research hallucination, throw down your fourth gateway, pylons and forge, research +1 and stay defensive, warping in sentries until about the 8ish range. at the time hallucination finishes you should have plenty of energy to get a pheonix scout and be able to hold off roach all-ins. send to main and nat, if you see hydra den, obviously immediatly go the robo rout, adding stargates for VR's after you take your third, if spire go double SG or twilight for blink and do a 6 gate timing push which should hit before mutas are out in numbers the sentry expand leaves you safe from roach all-in's, as well as burrow roaches as you get an early forge for your +1, and always throw down a blind cannon at your nat for detection, obviously you've got decent micro having perfected forge FE"ing and playing in masters. the colo will be up before a hydra break if you scout the den, and the spire rout is easily dealt with if you go for a 6 gate timing with blink, I know you're not a fan of the blink stalker stuff as you like to play more macro style games, but it is a viable option when a 2 base spire is scouted, because of how the timings work out In short, i dont believe that there is "one build" like you were asking for, that will cover the roach all-in, quick hydra bust, and mass muta build like you would prefer, but i believe the 3 gate expand is strong, and has great defences to the zerg builds that come a little faster then others, leaving you time to scout his mid game plan and act accordingly I hope this helped, HF and GL
Hi, I recently switched from zerg to protoss, and I've had this issue a lot when I play pvz--that is, I seem to play blind when i ffe, and am always surprised by a muta attack, or a roach/hydra drop, or just really anything. I know that six gate is necessary to kill zerg before mutas, but I don't want to blindly push zerg every game off two-bases; rather, I want to be able to play a macro-oriented, reactionary style, which I feel is better for skill improvement over time.
I like the idea of using sentry's hallucination to scout, but I don't really know what kind of build to follow in order to quickly scout, and then be able to respond to the zerg tech early enough, and efficiently enough.
Any suggestions? For now, I'm just sticking with six gate+blink, and hoping to get my third up, but this feels vulnerable to mutas, or fast roach/hydra.
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twilight council, as other people have pointed out is good for dealing with mutas (blink) and a quick 3rd (blink). Blink is also not bad vs. hydras with good micro, and zealot/archon is strong as well. I dont like geting colossus until after templars in this M/U because of how fragile they are if he gets a quick spire. I feel that fast colossus is not nearly as robust as what you can do with a twilight council in the midgame.
Theres also double stargate after cyber core, but I think thats getting a bit gimmicky.
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