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[G] ZvT without using a single baneling

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Deathfate
Profile Joined November 2008
Spain555 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-22 14:56:47
January 20 2011 06:14 GMT
#1
Hello everyone!, Im a zerg player of master league (3300 points before patch 1.2 in EU) and I have another way of playing ZvT that isnt muta ling baneling, IMO it works better in some maps like xel naga caverns or jungle basing where at least in the last one is almost imposible to win versus a T player thats knows what he is doing.
I want to remark that this strat is NOT GIMMICKY nor tricky, for me it is standard play and has its deviations like every standard Strategy.

Problems of Muta/Ling/Baneling

+ Show Spoiler +
Muta/Ling/Baneling is super good against terran, it gives you mobility, map control, some agressiveness and good way to counter his units.
I only see 3 problems with it, attacking heavy defended zones is a suicide (PFs and 5+ siege tanks are untouchable), keeping in upgrades with the terran its almost imposible as you are getting a ton of mutas that are super gas heavy and a million banelings; and the last one is that the hive tech arrives super late.

In some maps, this problems arent that important for some reasons, xel naga caverns and blistering sands, even if the terran takes the gold expo with a PF he has a wide area to cover so you can make a lot of counter attacks of heavy harrash with a lot of mutas. Metalopolis and Shakuras dont have super sweet expansions that are in the center of the map so if the terran takes a third normally the zerg has 5 expoes and outproduce him.

But the problem comes when you are in maps like Jungle Basin, where the terran has a Center expansion that its super near his main, and his natural isnt as exposed, and even if you destroy the rocks he can put siege tanks on the other side covering his main and his expo at the same time. Another map like this is Delta Quadrant, or Xel Naga if the terrans is good enough to wall off one of the entrances to his expo.

In these maps, you end up with a 200/200 army and you can't attack, and you have to rely on drops, muta and terran going out of position, because if you hold back he is going to split the map and you are screwed. Not to mention that you will be further behind in upgrades (as you cant research muta carpace and armor plus melee attack and ground armor, so late game his units will be better than yours).

I want to say that I didn't say in any moment that I don't like muta ling bane because it's hard to control and requires a lot of patience and good undestanding of the situation as every non cheesy strategy in this game is going to require that. So if you are looking for an easier strategy mine is not.





The Opening:

You could open with speedlings or roaches, because THE BUILD DOESNT CHANGE AT ALL UNTILL SPIRE TIME, but i prefer roaches because i think that opening slings gives a timing window before spire is done that a good terran can take advantage of if he goes blue-hellion marine.

15 Hatch (send drone to scout)
15 Pool
17 Over

Versus 2 rax play:

+ Show Spoiler +

Save larvae after ovie, and make a queen 8 lings and a spine crawler ASAP, go speed and then make a banelings nest if you dont see an expo, and go ling bane till mutas are out, then just go to the 1 rax play mid game section.

If he doesnt come all in then make some drones and do the same that posted in "vs 1 rax"

Versus 1 rax:

+ Show Spoiler +


Early Game:

Make 2 lings, 2 queens, and then a gas and a roach warren, keep making drones and as soon as the warren finishes make between 4-6 roaches depending on the map. Use some of them to be agressive but in some maps you will need to leave 3 or so behind like in xel naga caverns or 2 in jungle basin.

Make a ton of drones and your second gas more or less at 40 pop (when you have made 4 roaches or so). At 100 gas go lair, and use the next 100 gas for ling speed.
When lair is 50% done make 3rd and 4th gas, and when your ling speed is 20% done or so (right when the larvae pop) make a ton of lings (a lot of pushes come at this time and this many lings allow you to defend them as well as take rocks in the map, towers and harrash before muta pop)

At 100% lair, make your spire and start saving gas for muta, make 9 muta and expand to a 3rd.

NOTE: The way you reach this point isnt important, the one I just described is what IdrA does in G1 vs Jinro in GSL4 ro8, as long as you have your spire done at 9.30 more or less and a good amount of drones it is fine as in most standard strategies.


Mid Game:

After making your 9 muta (do NOT make +1 air attack), make an infestation pit. While harrashing with muta make sure you research +25 energy for infestors (right when the building finishes, this upgrade is as important as luker aspect in BW for this strategy) and then make 2 evo chambers to start +1 carpace and +1 melee. If you see a mech play with your mutas, make mostly roach and take your 4 base somewhere far away from your other bases, if you see marine tank, then make a ton of lings and make that hatchery in your natural or main to use the extrae larvae for the lings. Whatever you do make the hive after you have started your upgrades.

At 30/80 of your energy upgrade make 4/5 infestors if he goes mech and 8 if he goes bio, the gas should be more or less the same as you are making roaches against mech and lings vs bio, dont forget roach speed if he is meching, and borrow could be useful but not necessary.

The most important push you will have to defend is this one coming once you have your infestors, You need to delay/crush it using your infestors right at the exit of his base, as i see this push the crucial part of the game i will split it in two parts depending of what you are facing.

Vs Tank marine:

+ Show Spoiler +
Your army should have, 8 infestors, a ton of speedlings, and the rest of your muta roach if you didnt lose them (for god sake, dont sacrifice the muta, they are super good defending drops and helping killing the medivacs). All your units should be at the exit of his base except your muta (that are poking around his base trying to catch drops and harrasing) , when he comes out he has 2 options, leapfrogging his siege tanks to avoid fungaling his marines, or coming with his marines first. If he goes unsieged and the marines are exposed use fungal on them (you can kill a ton of marines like this) but dont lose a single infestor, its better to save the infestor than to lose a fungal. If he leapfrogs his tanks he will take a while and take advantage that fungaled siege tanks cannot siege so use any oportunity you have to fungal the marines and some tanks, or if you researched borrow throw 1 infested by some units to force friendly fire (as most of his tanks will be sieged. As in every game theart him with counter attacks if the maps allows it but keep 3 infestors at the front in case he decides not to come back to delay his units.
If you did well enough you should have make enough time at least to get your +2+2 upgrades and the adrenal glands, and most of the times (unless you were behind for some reason) you will have your broods in time to defend your expo.


Mech:

+ Show Spoiler +

The mech push will come much much later, and it is slow as hell, poke with your roaches and use fungal to delay it, and even infested terrans if you engage surrounding his army, as they cant run from them they are pretty nice as an emergency option. You will have broods out 100% of the times and kill his army with easy, in some maps you can lose maybe an expo but as you expanded twice it isnt a big deal. I recommend making a ton of lings once you have reached lair as you will need the gas for the upgrades and broods and they will be 2-2 and with adrenal, but of course if you engage before broodlords use roaches first to soak up the damage.


Late Game:
When you reach hive, make the greater spire and broodlords as soon as posible, also research adrenal glands and 2-2 upgrades, make your corruptors at 50/100 of the GS and make some broods asap.
Good terrans will scan your GS and make some vikings (normally 4) use your infestors to fungal them + infested + muta + corruptor, if the games goes on and he makes a ton of vikings switch to ultra as you already have the upgrades, i recommend starting the 3-3 upgrades and the ultralisk cavern at the same time.



Good things:

- Faster Upgrades

- Faster Hive, more agression once broodlords are out

- Already have infestor to use at hive tech with ultra and broods

Bad things:

- Less mobility

- Weak vs timing attacks im not seeing??

- Weak against ghost?? I havent found anyone yet making ghost but i think i can see that with my muta and maybe then make baneling nest as he will be short on tanks...

Replays:

I make a lot of mistakes in some of the replays, this is because I have been experimenting with the build and only found the correct timings recently, so maybe you will see a late ling speed, or a late 4th base, but you can make an idea of the timings and how the strategy works...

Deathfate 1 vs Mech
Deathfate 2 - Marine Tank
Deathfate 3 - Mech
Deathfate 4 - Marine Hellion
Deathfate 5 - Marine Marauder
Deathfate 6 - Marine Marauder
Deathfate 7 - Marine Tank


EDIT: For all the people asking why no banelings i will answer this. In the games I have been playing i didnt feel like i need them, ofc you can make banelings but that will delay the hive(maybe in some maps this variant is better), the whole purpose of the build is to hit the damn 3rd PF with broodlords(you cant attack a PF unless you are going to blow it up with banes) and nullifying his marines and vikings with the infestors.
Feel the power of the zerg swarm.
ibgeekn4me
Profile Joined April 2010
United States75 Posts
January 20 2011 06:26 GMT
#2
Nice guide, I will try this for suresies! But, when do you take 3d/4th bases? you neglected the timing in here and yet referred to them as if we had them already.
navy
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada197 Posts
January 20 2011 06:28 GMT
#3
WOW nice guide
very thorough

thanks for sharing, ill for sure give it a look
Deathfate
Profile Joined November 2008
Spain555 Posts
January 20 2011 06:31 GMT
#4
My 3rd is when i have mutas out "At 100% lair, make your spire and start saving gas for muta, make 9 muta and expand to a 3rd.". The 4th depends, after evo chambers vs mech, when i have some broods vs bio but this is something i havent test yet (vs bio i mean), i think it could be sooner
Feel the power of the zerg swarm.
ibgeekn4me
Profile Joined April 2010
United States75 Posts
January 20 2011 06:34 GMT
#5
Ahh your right, I was focusing too much on the tank/marine and mech sections. Cheers, and thanks.
Darkren
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1841 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 06:42:30
January 20 2011 06:41 GMT
#6
Quick question even tho u said the mech push comes very late how do u deal well vs tanks + marine + thor.

I understand delaying it helps but how do u engage efficiently sayinghe attacks before blords
"Yeah, I send (hopefully) helpful PM's quite frequently. You don't have to warn/ban everything" - KadaverBB
Lobotomist
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1541 Posts
January 20 2011 06:41 GMT
#7
I will definitely have to try this out, it seems quite strong. I'm not so certain about skipping banelings vs marine marauder though. Pure bio with medivacs is strong early, and you may be vulnerable to a push slightly before infestors are out. That said, nobody is doing pure bio pushes right now, because everyone goes banelings.

I'm also curious why you would go 15 hatch 15 pool over 14 hatch 14 pool. Is the extra drone worth delaying your hatch and your pool? It seems like the delay makes you noticeably weaker vs 2 rax play, which is a razor thin part of the game already.
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
Dark.Carnival
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States5095 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 08:01:10
January 20 2011 07:55 GMT
#8
Ok I watched all your replays, I've read your thread. First off we can completely ignore vs. Mech as generally banelings aren't used there anyway, so it's completely irrelevant to the build.

Having watched the replays I can 100% tell you that your build had very little to do with why it worked. It had more to do with your opponents playing very poorly and you gaining a huge advantage at some point in the game. Generally you gained the advantage through mutalisk harass, which is already something most zergs do anyway so it's once again irrelevant to the build.

The important thing to note is how inefficient not using banes were in your games. I have a friend who uses a similar infestor style, delaying/stopping pushes using fungals, except he uses banelings as well. Why? Because banelings are insanely cost efficient. You don't need that many to get a good return for their price.

Look through those replays, note that in almost all the games where you had a huge advantage from mutalisk harass you very nearly threw it away because you didn't make banelings. If you had banelings you would have won your games a thousand times easier, and probably 10minutes faster. There's simply no reason to say you won't use banelings when they are the most cost efficient unit zerg has, and is complemented by other units like zerglings and infestors.

Muta/ling/bane, or infestor/ling/bane works because the units work insanely well together. Omitting banelings leaves a hole in your play that makes it really easy to get hit by a good terran who uses tank/marine/medivac effectively, which no one in those replays did. They all played subpar, so basing builds off mediocre players doesn't prove anything, as there can huge holes in it and you'll never know until you play against people of a higher level.

Infestors are amazing in ZvT, but in the early and midgame stage, you need banelings in your army mix. You can still do your entire "style" of playing except it would be way more efficient if you used banelings with it. The build itself is pretty much only flawed by the fact you aren't using banes. Aside from that it's fine, considering that infestors are very good vs terran, and the fast hive tech works really well if played correctly. But no banes... seems so silly. Do note that you don't even need that many banelings in ZvT, especially using infestor play. None though, as I said, is silly.
@QxGDarkCell ._.
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
January 20 2011 08:59 GMT
#9
The problem with this is, there is a timingwindow of like 5 minutes where you will just die to about any stimbio push because you have no aoe. normally there are stim timingpushes that hit shortly after you have reached t2, NORMALLY you defend this with lings and slow banelings. but you still plan to get a spire, 9 mutas before even starting your infestation pit.

so yea, this can work if you are left alone forever, but against an aggressive opponent you will get stomped.
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
January 20 2011 09:11 GMT
#10
If you are not using banelings then you are loosing are lot. Not only they blow up bio but they reduces dps or marines a lot because they cannot shoot because they are running for their lives, so they do no damage so your mutas and lings are safe.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
Deathfate
Profile Joined November 2008
Spain555 Posts
January 20 2011 13:39 GMT
#11
@Dark.Carnival, I agree with you that my opponents weren't the best and they made a ton of mistakes, but if you watch the replays you will see so i do, sometimes i forgot to fungal at his front, normally my 4th hatch is allways late and im sitting at 1k minerals. The thing is that if he comes and pushes i can kill his army, but if he insteads gets a 3rd i can be agressive sooner with my broods while making banelings will delay a lot the hive tech in case you want them with speed and at least 10 of them.

I would like someone good enough trying it vs someone good too, i think it can work quite nicely, just use it in jungle basin where muta ling bane doesnt work that well at all.

@dark.force, yeah i know the push that you are talking about, thats why i recommend opening roaches, they are good against marines in few numbers early game and if he wants to make the timing attack right before the spire thats when i have my speed finished and those speedlings I told you have to make. Maybe people im facing is doing that push totally wrong and opening without banes doesnt work.
Feel the power of the zerg swarm.
Deathfate
Profile Joined November 2008
Spain555 Posts
January 20 2011 14:07 GMT
#12
On January 20 2011 18:11 Alpina wrote:
If you are not using banelings then you are loosing are lot. Not only they blow up bio but they reduces dps or marines a lot because they cannot shoot because they are running for their lives, so they do no damage so your mutas and lings are safe.


This is true with muta ling baneling, with my army composition now im the one fungaling and running, and then engaging when there is a good position and his marines are all red or dead or once i have broods. Also I have upgrades sooner and the difference is huge, i didnt know that zerglings could last so much if you have good upgrades, when i played muta ling bane i was always behind on upgrades and my lings didnt do any damage against marines.
Mutas shouldnt be used too much for defense of his pushes, they should be delaying him, catching drops and denying thirds and killing straight units.
Feel the power of the zerg swarm.
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
January 20 2011 17:17 GMT
#13
Sorry I didn't read read the entire OP word for word, but do you not get banelings b/c you actually don't need them or because you are purposely going out of your way to not get them? Could you still get banes and do a variation of this build or does getting them ruin it?
Apologize.
charlie420247
Profile Joined November 2009
United States692 Posts
January 20 2011 17:52 GMT
#14
you cant attack defended positions with bane muta ling however you can harass like a mother fucker and they really should only be a stepping stone to get to broodlords and infestors anyway.
there are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who dont.
Deathfate
Profile Joined November 2008
Spain555 Posts
January 20 2011 17:59 GMT
#15
You can get banes if you want as long as you dont make a billion mutas like in muta ling bane and only make 9, the problem is that the upgrade will come pretty late or you could delay the infestor a bit in order to get them.
Feel the power of the zerg swarm.
SurroundSound
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
106 Posts
January 20 2011 18:02 GMT
#16
Is there anything similar to this build in a ZvP matchup? Anyone wonder how that would work out?
Its not John Hancock...Its Herby Hancock
JedSaje
Profile Joined November 2010
United States30 Posts
January 20 2011 18:05 GMT
#17
i like i very much! im always looking for onorthodox strats and thats something that most player wont be thinking, especially around my leauge. im not a high lvl player at all, but im deff gonna bookmark this once i get home and try it out THNX!
Its not over till the fat lady GG's
Ponyo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1231 Posts
January 20 2011 18:12 GMT
#18
Just seems in the way these games turned out that Banelings would have rolled it for you anyway.
ponyo.848
MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 18:20:03
January 20 2011 18:19 GMT
#19
On January 20 2011 17:59 DarKFoRcE wrote:
The problem with this is, there is a timingwindow of like 5 minutes where you will just die to about any stimbio push because you have no aoe. normally there are stim timingpushes that hit shortly after you have reached t2, NORMALLY you defend this with lings and slow banelings. but you still plan to get a spire, 9 mutas before even starting your infestation pit.

so yea, this can work if you are left alone forever, but against an aggressive opponent you will get stomped.

I also think this is vulnerable to some 2-rax -> 4-rax transitions, roaches are good at defending, but you you need to make exactly the right amount, it should IN THEORY, be able to defend them though. When terran spots the roaches if he add 2 tech labs and gets another rax he can also put intermediate pressure with infantry (M+M) because you don't have speedlings to punish the aggression.

Edit:
I should say that all of these things are tough anyways so it doesn't mean this build isn't worth trying.
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
Sablar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Sweden880 Posts
January 20 2011 18:42 GMT
#20
I like the layout of the guide but why no banelings? I think you could just get them and do the same thing, or at least the baneling nest to be prepared if he pushes early. Not a lot of resources there.

I'm only mid/low diamond so I think banelings are too effective for me due to lack of marine control at my level. Still my build is kind of close to what you are doing only less infestors+banelings (and worse control and macro), and I thought that was a pretty standard build.
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