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I just can't beat terrans, I lose EVERY game they go mass marines. I mean sure, I suck, but to a point I should be able to beat at least some terrans.
Heres a replay.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112530-1v1-terran-zerg-jungle-basin
And I played the best I can this game, this is like, the peak of my skill. I sit around 1850-1900 rating. I don't know I need help in improving my skill and how to beat terrans. I'm really at a loss of what to even get. I try all kinds of different unit compositions.
ling/roach/bling
ling/hydra/infestor
ling/bling/infestor
ling/muta/to broodlords
Nothing really ever does well. Its always insanely hard, I would think there would be at least one decent counter to mass marines. I know day9 hates the word counter but there are blatent counters in this game and Z seems to have none vs T.
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Roach/bling/infestor/ultralisk.
In this game, you could've expanded to both sides of the map, and centralize your army. If he tries to kill either expo, just bust his front. If he tries to face your army, then just fall back. Soon, your four base(eight gas) advantage plus the tech you should've had(infestors/banelings) ought to be able to solve his big army and then you just need to clean up.
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Well i quickly went through the replay.
a few things i noticed:
His marines at 2/1 attack -> your ling/roaches at 0/0 upgrades near the end of the match
The rocks at your backdoor : tear them down with your roaches, that way terran can´t abuse them with tanks so easily and you can reach your third on the right much quicker on this map for defense.
Roaches are not very good against tanks as well as marines invest the gas rather in more bling/muta and upgrades.
Micro-fail at a few points, especially when engaging his planetary fortress. he was provoking you a few times to follow him back to his tank/pf line and you took the bait.
why no tech to tier3, you had the opportunity quite often. Zerg Tier3 > tank/marine
Burrow might have helped too,some hidden banelings -> just a few banelings burrowed at important locations, even if he suspects they are there he has to throw down scans -> slower attacks, less mules -> less marines.
So in general : more upgrading/teching might help in the later stages of the game, as you seemed quite well during the first 10 minutes, but lost your edge later on.
creep spread was nice
economy was good, expanding was good, though you were quite high on minerals compared to gas -> when taking an expo go first for the geysers -> quicker upgrading teching, more power units
just some random tips from a platinum noob^^
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For that specific game, I think that you should have knocked down the rocks at the backdoor. If not immediately, at least after repelling T's first tank/marine drop.
More generally, at the end of the game he had 2/1 bio, you had 0/0 on all of your stuff. Marines are incredibly more effective when upgraded; the same goes for zerglings and, to a lesser degree, roaches. Also, when using banelings you need to have the speed upgrade researched. They're a melee unit, you don't want your opponent to be able to kite them.
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Ling/bling muta seems to work great for me.
I also try as much as possible to use burrowed banelings. The only time this didnt work was when my opponent scanned by pure luck to see my army positioning. Most of hte time, if you position your banelings in awkward places, theres no way they will notice.
Also try getting good positioning. When he pushes out, send your muta force into his scv line. Most likely hes going to pull back or in some cases panic and try to take you out. In this case leave your banelings and mutas away from your expo and when he goes into the choke, come from behind and swarm like crazy. spine crawlers in the front, banelings lings from the back, and mutas if you need them to be pulled back = gg
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ling, baneling, roach, infestor. should do the trick. I think it's ridiculous how terrans can just spam one unit and zerg must use four times as much to counter it.
You must be ahead in bases and have a better economy.
Tank with roach
Immobilize with fungal and roll banelings
lings to surround marauders
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This map is actually quite bad for zergs so I'm not surprised you'd get outplayed on this map.
There's two points where decision making cut in. The first is on the banelings. Banelings themselves, great idea. But why not get the rolling upgrade? Without it they kind of just die.
On this map there's a pretty strong strategic play you can make to divert his attention. He had a pretty good spread of turrets but you could slowly pick away at those back rocks and expand your creep that way. That'd give you room for smaller strikes on him.
And yeah, those upgrades killed you. You literally invested all your gas in tech and units but nothing in upgrades.
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Damn I forgot centrifugal hooks? lol I didn't realize that. I guess I do have a problem with getting upgrades, I always tend to forget. I need to work on that. I never used to creep spread at all so that was something I was working on.
I always kinda get scared to do things, I wanted to take out his 3rd expo. I usually get in a situation where the terran starts taking out my bases with giant unstoppable death balls and I don't tech and upgrade because I feel like I'm going to get smashed at any random time the terran feels like moving out. I always have a lot of fear of expanding because they usually can take out my expos easily with crazy deathballs.
How early do you guys tend to start your upgrades?
And after typing all that I watched your video. It helps alot,
I'm always kinda scared to get tons of banelings, I feel like they will just outmicro the banelings and they will die anyways lol. I usually do get those damn baneling speed upgrade but I forgot for some reason. I guess I'll try more banelings in the future, I did pretty crappy on my attacks I tend to send in my army and then go and inject and macro more lol. b
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Make sure to have a better economy than the opponent, scout well in time so you can know what the tech route T is going for. Is he making a timing attack? Be prepared, when he suprises you with marines outside your base you've got only yourself to blame. Spread creep like a baller, is he expanding? Take 1-2 extra bases. Outproduce him in zerglings and banelings, upgrades are really important, feel free to add some roaches if you feel he has a strong army.
Is he tank heavy? Maybe get some mutas, to harass while you tech to broodlords to break his tank contain. Counterattack is also viable. Infestor if he goes mainly MMM.
Roach ling baneling absolutely CRUSHES Terran infantry, And mech is a joke vs a decent amount of mutas. He wont get 10 thors before you have 30 mutas atleast. He has marines? Slash in some roach ling baneling with upgrades, it will smash his army to pieces.
The thing is in ZvT, atleast from my impression on it, it doesn't matter if you trade armys with one another, as long as the Zerg can stay ahead in bases and eventually outproduce the opponent. Once you get up a decent amount of bases tech switches become even more deadly for the terran player also.
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Really tough for Zerg to get a third on this map.
I do want to say, though that instead of trying to find the 'magic unit mix' that will solve your problems, you just pick something relatively safe and standard (like Muta/Sling/Bling) and play it again and again. Most of these standard styles work against most things with good enough mechanics and minor adjustments, which is why they're pretty standard. (And Marine/Medivac/Tank is pretty common for Terran these days.
Comments:
-I feel like your bottom OL to scout the Terran expo could've been a little farther right. You have a good idea of Terran's unit comp at this point probably, so his expansion timing is kind of important.
-In-game you probably didn't realize this, but after killing off Terran's drop you're in pretty good shape. I feel like you should've at least threatened to pressure with all the roaches you just built, like knock down Terran's back rocks or something.
-From about 10-12 after you spire pops you make a bunch of lings, I feel like those could've been drones, Terran has to be a little bit passive to deal with muta harass.
-There's no good third on this map, which is why Zergs hate it, but I have to feel with both Xel'Naga towers, and your creep spread, taking the upper central expansion would be a little safer then the right-hand one.
-Your minerals are really high, I think an in-base hatch is a good idea if you're going to be forced into extensive 2-basing. (It's not n00b, JulyZerg does it!) This is especially true IMO if you're going lots of cheap units like lings which are larva-intensive.
-Had you scouted Terran's beginning at around 14 (with a ling outside his base or something) you could've done a big muta attack in his base for a lot of damage. You had like 15 muta, which is easily enough to bust a turret.
-As others have said, upgrades made quite a big difference. (Especially +1 carapace when dealing with tanks.) You got an Evo chamber.
-At around 15-16, you double expand after killing Terran's push (great!), I feel like you could've droned a little bit harder at that point. Definitely replenish mutas (because they're what keeps terran in his base), but dump your extra larva/minerals into drones. You're only at 40-ish drones. (And yes, knowing when to drone and when to build units is probably one of the toughest parts of playing Zerg.) (Good thing to scout for: Terran's factory count/tank count. Most Terrans who are not in the GSL will want a decent number of tanks or whatever they're using to deal with Banelings to feel safe pushing.)
-Again, if you're going for the mass-muta style, you should go to where Terran's army isn't, bust his turrets, do harassment.
-I think maybe you didn't intend to attack Terran head-on at around ~20, at least in the way you did, with half your units killing a refinery and a turret and Terran getting a great concave on the other half of your army.
-No Bling speed at ~20 minutes.You chase Terran all the way back to his PF, and then commit to an attack. I think you should've backed off. (You're on four bases, Terran's clearly afraid to push you, but you lost a lot of units, here.)
-Speaking as a Terran player, I think using Blings to snipe a PF is one of the dumbest things Zerg can do, unless Zerg already has a large lead. If there are no Blings on the board, Terran will easily push you and probably kill you. I would gladly trade a PF to KNOW my opponent has no Blings.
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On December 05 2010 11:52 Kassokilleri2ff wrote:
Damn I forgot centrifugal hooks? lol I didn't realize that. I guess I do have a problem with getting upgrades, I always tend to forget. I need to work on that. I never used to creep spread at all so that was something I was working on.
I always kinda get scared to do things, I wanted to take out his 3rd expo. I usually get in a situation where the terran starts taking out my bases with giant unstoppable death balls and I don't tech and upgrade because I feel like I'm going to get smashed at any random time the terran feels like moving out. I always have a lot of fear of expanding because they usually can take out my expos easily with crazy deathballs.
How early do you guys tend to start your upgrades?
And after typing all that I watched your video. It helps alot,
I'm always kinda scared to get tons of banelings, I feel like they will just outmicro the banelings and they will die anyways lol. I usually do get those damn baneling speed upgrade but I forgot for some reason. I guess I'll try more banelings in the future, I did pretty crappy on my attacks I tend to send in my army and then go and inject and macro more lol. b
Haha, I'm glad the video helped dude. And as far as upgrades go, I get the vital ones as soon as possible and the +1/+1 ups when the money is available. Typically when getting an evo chamber for spore-crawlers is also a good timing.
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EPT
