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After reading a certain thread, part of which discussed the possibility of map rigging, I started to think about all the races and how the map affects them. The conclusion I started to reach is that very few maps are considered 'balanced' when playing as zerg. With the exception of xel naga every map is either considered to be either favored for zerg or favored for the zerg's opponent. Metal may be another exception, but this same phenomenon can be seen within just that one map (far spawns said to favor zerg while close spawns the opposite).
As those of you who have been watching the GSL know, the outcome of games with a zerg in them have been heavily based on the map selections. It has occurred to be that zerg can at times seem overpowered on the favored maps but underpowered on the others. You may say 'well... that's why the maps are called favored...' but I don't feel this phenomenon exists to even close to the same degree in PvT, and I think it takes away from the competitiveness of the game at the pro level. Having almost every game with a zerg in it be a situation where the zerg is expected to win, or be very difficult for the zerg to win is fine to watch for now, but I think that eventually it will become tiresome.
It seems to me that in order to have a balanced map pool, the maps would all have to be of average size and generally quite similar to xel naga. Zerg at the moment seems to be so dependent on maps that it might stifle map creativity in the future if balance is the aim.
What do you guys think? Am I just wrong about the current state of zerg dependence on maps? Or do you think that all races just need more time to figure out to play each map to their race's advantage?
EDIT: Note that this is not a zerg whine thread. I'm trying to say that the map can swing the game too far in their favor, or the opposite.
Another edit: Idra recently said in an interview "meta(metalopolis) is just stupid zvt. Two thirds chance of free win, one third of free loss". Of course he's just talking about the one map. But I think it gets across the point I'm trying to make here.
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I really think Zerg is the only race that gets the short end of the stick when it comes to maps. If we get a map like Steppes or Delta it's like an uphill battle from the time you spawn. If it's ZvT or ZvP on Scrap Station, sure they say it favors Zerg, but does it really put T or P at any noticable disatvantage? No. The rush distances are longer, but that helps out all races..not just zerg.
I really think Z is the only race that maps are a real problem for because we have no stalling tactics like T and P does.
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On December 01 2010 05:55 MementoMori wrote: After reading a certain thread, part of which discussed the possibility of map rigging, I started to think about all the races and how the map affects them. The conclusion I started to reach is that very few maps are considered 'balanced' when playing as zerg. With the exception of xel naga every map is either considered to be either favored for zerg or favored for the zerg's opponent. Metal may be another exception, but this same phenomenon can be seen within just that one map (far spawns said to favor zerg while close spawns the opposite).
As those of you who have been watching the GSL know, the outcome of games with a zerg in them have been heavily based on the map selections. It has occurred to be that zerg can at times seem overpowered on the favored maps but underpowered on the others. You may say 'well... that's why the maps are called favored...' but I don't feel this phenomenon exists to even close to the same degree in PvT, and I think it takes away from the competitiveness of the game at the pro level. Having almost every game with a zerg in it be a situation where the zerg is expected to win, or be very difficult for the zerg to win is fine to watch for now, but I think that eventually it will become tiresome.
It seems to me that in order to have a balanced map pool, the maps would all have to be of average size and generally quite similar to xel naga. Zerg at the moment seems to be so dependent on maps that it might stifle map creativity in the future if balance is the aim.
What do you guys think? Am I just wrong about the current state of zerg dependence on maps? Or do you think that all races just need more time to figure out to play each map to their race's advantage?
If the maps were really wide and big and had 3 easy to take expansions, zerg would have an advantage over the other two races. All the races are pretty map Dependant, its just that the blizzard maps are small and have small choke points with constricting areas on the map allowing Colosus and Tanks to destroy a lot of ground units. Its just unfortunate that the maps are like this and that zerg suffers for it. There will be newer maps eventually; its speculated that GOM has a map team already working on balanced maps for the GSL and once those hit blizzard will put them in our map pool its inevitable; until then you can't really do much about it.
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On December 01 2010 06:03 Karthane wrote: I really think Zerg is the only race that gets the short end of the stick when it comes to maps. If we get a map like Steppes or Delta it's like an uphill battle from the time you spawn. If it's ZvT or ZvP on Scrap Station, sure they say it favors Zerg, but does it really put T or P at any noticable disatvantage? No. The rush distances are longer, but that helps out all races..not just zerg.
I really think Z is the only race that maps are a real problem for because we have no stalling tactics like T and P does.
Other than fungal growth, but I guess you're right.
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Spine crawlers seem to be a pretty effective way to stall since its available once the spawning pool is up.
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On December 01 2010 06:06 .Theory wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 06:03 Karthane wrote: I really think Zerg is the only race that gets the short end of the stick when it comes to maps. If we get a map like Steppes or Delta it's like an uphill battle from the time you spawn. If it's ZvT or ZvP on Scrap Station, sure they say it favors Zerg, but does it really put T or P at any noticable disatvantage? No. The rush distances are longer, but that helps out all races..not just zerg.
I really think Z is the only race that maps are a real problem for because we have no stalling tactics like T and P does. Other than fungal growth, but I guess you're right. Yea, the vast majority of pushes will come before you have fungal. I've found burrowed roaches can be used to stall in a way, but that still requires lair.
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On December 01 2010 06:07 Avs wrote: Spine crawlers seem to be a pretty effective way to stall since its available once the spawning pool is up. Well considering a wall for T and Force Field for P are basically standard and no real investment, when Spine Crawlers blocking your ramp is like 300-400 minerals i wouldn't say that is viable.
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I am getting tired of "This map is good for zerg/this maps is bad for zerg." There might be some truth to it, but I here it all the time. :[
But if all the maps were even for all the races, there would be less variety in the games I think.
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hm short distance maps hurts most zergs because their strengh is in larva injecting and massing army only when necesarry. shorter maps = shorter time to react.
but i think short maps also favour very aggresive zergs like kyrix in a sense, i think ST Monster took one game off Marineking precisely because the short distance of steppes so he can counter attacked very fast.
But yea definitely the strength of zergs are in their macro mechanics and a lot of short maps nullify that.
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I think the map really affects how any of the races play, but since Zerg is very reactionary it affects them the most. Some maps and even some positions can decide whether a match will be an even playing field or an uphill struggle.
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On December 01 2010 06:11 MrMotionPicture wrote: I am getting tired of "This map is good for zerg/this maps is bad for zerg." There might be some truth to it, but I here it all the time. :[
But if all the maps were even for all the races, there would be less variety in the games I think. If the maps were even for all races, then it would:
1) Actually show under / overpowered-ness. Currently depending on the map, a certain matchup is probable, with balanced maps the TvZ and PvZ matchups will be more even and can show imbalance vs the races rather than imbalance on the maps.
2) If the maps were equal then it would help promote better game play, as the better player would win due to skill not a map win. I mean ZvT/P on steps is stupidly hard, but on Xel'Naga much more balanced. If in every tourney the 1st map was steps, a lot less zergs would make it to round 2. If the first map was Xel'Naga it would be more even.
As such, with a map imbalance, it really just hurts competitive play, and it would matter more on sick macro and micro rather than "the rush distance is so short that he had no time to make units and just fell over" or on the other side "there are so many open expansions that Z can defend and surround so easily, the other races can't even take a second"
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Zerg is dependent on the map, yes, but I think it's even more so on the creep. Gives you a signal of where they're coming, etc. And on larger maps when you can cover the map, the creep gives you a ton of vision plus uber speedy units (lategame).
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On December 01 2010 06:09 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 06:07 Avs wrote: Spine crawlers seem to be a pretty effective way to stall since its available once the spawning pool is up. Well considering a wall for T and Force Field for P are basically standard and no real investment, when Spine Crawlers blocking your ramp is like 300-400 minerals i wouldn't say that is viable.
Terran walls are cheap, bunkers can be salvaged for 100% return and depos are a good choice, but force field is no real investment?? Each sentry is 100 gas and starts with only enough energy for 1 FF. That gas cost adds up, it slows down colossus and or temps, which are NEEDED because gateway units are so bad.
Spine crawlers are mobile, you can turtle at your main, then move out and turtle your nat, then move out again to a 3rd or push out to an offensive position. I feel like you're being rather biased in this topic.
Zerg is still able to get results, regardless of the maps. Both GSL winners were Zerg, maps aren't holding the race back by any means. Some maps will always be difficult for some races, it was like this in Broodwar. Blizzard doesn't make the best maps, but I don't think it's there's unbalance by any means.
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On December 01 2010 06:09 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 06:07 Avs wrote: Spine crawlers seem to be a pretty effective way to stall since its available once the spawning pool is up. Well considering a wall for T and Force Field for P are basically standard and no real investment, when Spine Crawlers blocking your ramp is like 300-400 minerals i wouldn't say that is viable.
Whoa there, you don't need that many spine crawlers. But my point is that lots of zerg players make it out fine without spine crawlers. If we're talking 2v2+ games then this is completely different and technically not an issue. Most of the time you wouldn't want to wall in as zerg since it would help the other races shoot you down anyways.
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On December 01 2010 06:18 Molybdenum wrote: Spine crawlers are mobile, you can turtle at your main, then move out and turtle your nat, then move out again to a 3rd or push out to an offensive position. I feel like you're being rather biased in this topic.
Zerg is still able to get results, regardless of the maps. Both GSL winners were Zerg, maps aren't holding the race back by any means. Some maps will always be difficult for some races, it was like this in Broodwar. Blizzard doesn't make the best maps, but I don't think it's there's unbalance by any means.
think this covered it quite well, 100% agree
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Yes zerg is to map dependent.. Maps like Jungle, DQ, Steps and Lost Temple all have major flaws which gives the terran and protoss players some favorable tactics vs zerg. Thank god we can eliminated maps when laddering. Tournaments on the other hand can really fuck up your game though, since playing terran on LT or protoss on jungle can be a bitch.
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Zerg players won the last 2 GSL because they ALL vetoed steppes and delta.
Now somehow every zerg is getting it. (lol gom)
The only way a zerg can win on those maps is if they outplay their opponent by a drastic margin. Fruit for example, taking super risky expansions all over Steppes he can not even defend, but wins because terrans don't bother to scout on that map.
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In short I will say yes, Zerg is way to dependent on maps, at least in my experience. On Scrap station my combined win rate vs Terran and Protoss is 80% in 21 games while the win rate on steppes of war is only 31% over 30 games. In fact the only map where the win rate of Terran, Protoss, and myself are close to even is on Xel'naga in 36 games played. All the other maps are way in my favor or way in the opponents favor.
The things that hurt Zerg on maps tend to really hurt Zerg and things on map that seem to help Zerg usually only marginally help Zerg. Perhaps Zerg just needs to learn different play styles depending on the map?
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On December 01 2010 06:03 Or-a wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 05:55 MementoMori wrote: After reading a certain thread, part of which discussed the possibility of map rigging, I started to think about all the races and how the map affects them. The conclusion I started to reach is that very few maps are considered 'balanced' when playing as zerg. With the exception of xel naga every map is either considered to be either favored for zerg or favored for the zerg's opponent. Metal may be another exception, but this same phenomenon can be seen within just that one map (far spawns said to favor zerg while close spawns the opposite).
As those of you who have been watching the GSL know, the outcome of games with a zerg in them have been heavily based on the map selections. It has occurred to be that zerg can at times seem overpowered on the favored maps but underpowered on the others. You may say 'well... that's why the maps are called favored...' but I don't feel this phenomenon exists to even close to the same degree in PvT, and I think it takes away from the competitiveness of the game at the pro level. Having almost every game with a zerg in it be a situation where the zerg is expected to win, or be very difficult for the zerg to win is fine to watch for now, but I think that eventually it will become tiresome.
It seems to me that in order to have a balanced map pool, the maps would all have to be of average size and generally quite similar to xel naga. Zerg at the moment seems to be so dependent on maps that it might stifle map creativity in the future if balance is the aim.
What do you guys think? Am I just wrong about the current state of zerg dependence on maps? Or do you think that all races just need more time to figure out to play each map to their race's advantage? If the maps were really wide and big and had 3 easy to take expansions, zerg would have an advantage over the other two races. All the races are pretty map Dependant, its just that the blizzard maps are small and have small choke points with constricting areas on the map allowing Colosus and Tanks to destroy a lot of ground units. Its just unfortunate that the maps are like this and that zerg suffers for it. There will be newer maps eventually; its speculated that GOM has a map team already working on balanced maps for the GSL and once those hit blizzard will put them in our map pool its inevitable; until then you can't really do much about it.
How do you know Gom is/maybe working on maps, do you have a link? I really hope this is true.
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ye terr and toss manage fine on all maps whereas Zerg can only achieve the same on maps that arent steps of war, delta quadrant , junglebasin, lost temple.
or metal in close spawns, shakuras in close spawns.
other than that Z is fine imo.. but it gets tiresom to play these maps when I know its uphill battle from the getgo. also I have to watch out for any of 9900 gimmicks these maps allow toss and terran, while Z has no real mapgimmick/terrain abuse on any map, not one.
the reason so many Zergs qualified for GSL#3 is the mappool in the qualifiers, it was shakuras metalolpolis and decider on scrap station..and zerg dominated obviously... and then they get jungle basin steps of war and lost temple in the main tournament and get lolstomped and still some people dont understand why.. I really hope GOM or any other league/ladder/whatever similair to iccup brings us a new and ever evolving map pool with PROPLAYER testing..not blizzard stupid inhouse testing, really steps of war? how stoned do you have to be to figure this map into the map pool...
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