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[Strategy] Spellcaster Champions

Forum Index > LoL General
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Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-07 19:57:29
November 04 2010 23:38 GMT
#1
Still in progress. Busy this week/weekend, but I'll keep plugging away at it like a little project. If anyone has questions etc. they want covered ask away. I was going to go through summoner spells/masteries/runes/items and maybe a run-down of heroes that might fall under the category.

Disclaimer: The OP was originally written by a heavily biased player who’s fairly known for having a bizarre and erratic playstyle. I’m going to try to make it more “middle-ground” as people offer input later, but understand that this is just one perspective on a lot of these things.

Do you like stomping people out of the lane by taking advantage of superior micro? Do you like having (usually) the best selection of Crowd Control effects? Do you like swooping in like a hawk to punish a mistake, then have the ability (usually) to get away?
Then playing a spellcaster champion might be for you.
Spellcasters are generally hit-and-away heroes, that have a period of dominance ranging from early-to-mid game, and in a few rare cases, even into late-game. They’re not as lock-down as ranged carries, but they’re less reliant on meatshields, and tend to have less variance from game-to-game. Because they have such good utility, they’re also welcome on many teams, and their flexibility always affords multiple effective ways of building. They reward positioning, opportunism, flexibility, and game understanding. And most teams have the ability to carry two of them. They have some of the most unique skills in the game, leading to some bizarre sexy plays, or funky kills and get-aways. They can, however, also be the most useless pieces of dead weight in the game, can be heavily affected by a bad early game, and are generally relegated to support by the end of the game.
Welcome to the thread of assholes: we like making peoples’ lives miserable.

General Play Advice/Tips
Lane control and presence
Actual lane control depends heavily on your hero. As with all other heroes, you MUST know your damage output, your range, and the damage trade-off with an opponent versus your ability to fight attrition. You must also gauge your opponent's reaction time and decision-making. For example, I once laned Alistar against a Sona and Shen, and I recognized right off the bat that Sona was pussy and Shen was slow. I rammed Sona like a boss, chunking her down 30% hp at a time. Once the creep pushed I rammed her into a wall, follow-up stun, game over. If the Shen were better though, and if the Sona were better at gauging damage and trading hits with me, it wouldn't have been so one-sided. A simple example of a good spellcaster player versus a bad one. Moreso than any other hero archetype in the game spellcasters need to have strong lane presence. When we cast spells we don't incur creep aggro - this means we more than any else have the ability to punish people when strong. Do it.

Dancing
This is more of a basic gameplay fundamental but you must learn to dance effectively in all matchups. Not only is this good for all matchups anyways, this is crucial for spellcasters who lack sustained damage to fight back against dps if you're caught.

Understanding burst vs sustained, and taking advantage of burst
How creep aggro works

Map control and presence
Knowing when you're strong

Targeting priority and roles in team fights
Taking advantage of CC, burst threat
Knowing when to switch offense defense

Positioning
Esp. when you have certain heroes or summoner spells

Blue buff



Summoner Spells
Flash and Ghost
Almost every spellcaster will have one or both of these spells (until Flash is removed), hence why this is placed at the top. Different spellcasters/playstyles have different needs, though. For example, Flash on Annie is non-negotiable because she needs that instant close-gap (to take advantage of her instantaneous AoE stun. Compare this to Sona's AoE disable which has a significant delay on its effect, making Flash/Ult not as devastating) and re-positioning. In almost all non-similar champion situations, I'll repeat what I've often mentioned. Flash is great for crossing walls (often a life-saver, other times it simply prolongs the inevitable) and for dodging critical projectiles, but Ghost has significantly better distance covered, and its duration allows you to fire it and have its effect for a long time over the duration of a fight, while having better cooldown.

Exhaust
A lot of people will give you arguments for and against taking this. I think it's actually one of the best scaling summoner spells in the game, given that your primary targets (physical DPS) get stronger and stronger as the game goes on. Hence, blinding one of them for 2 seconds 50 minutes into the game is ridiculously good. But it's a tough sell for a lot of spellcasters because they need other things - re-positioning, added burst, more mobility, etc. You'll more often see this on specific support heroes, like Sona, or as a counter to a hero like Twitch.

Ignite
For the most part this is a straight-forward summoner spell: it adds to your burst. It also has a "secondary" use for countering heal, particularly heal teams, or against certain champions (Vlad, Mundo).

Clairvoyance
Like Exhaust, you'll mostly see this on support heroes who don't need to re-position themselves as often, for instance, to ensure strikes at opponents (as you tend to babysit your own), or don't need to worry about laying down extra burst, or don't need to worry too much about survival, etc. It's an underrated spell, or rather it's not taken as often as you might want, but it's not a simple "it's good - take it" either because the other summoner spells are great and the likelihood of Clair tipping a game in your favor isn't that big. Like wards, it requires a team dedicated to taking advantage of the vision.

Clarity
Certain spellcasters are heavily reliant on sustained mana usage to survive/control their lanes, like Kassadin, or are support heroes that also rely on a steady stream of mana like Janna and Taric. In both of the latter's cases you can make do without, but many players like taking Clarity as insurance, to prevent losing their lane to a "superior" lane control hero. Taric in particular had a stretch where it was almost 100% required to take Clarity so that you could hold your own against a Soraka lane. Be aware of the heroes on your team though - sometimes no matter how much you might want it individually, it just might not be worth taking Clarity when you're on Shen/Taric lane with Kennen solo top.

Teleport
Particularly when you're solo top, Teleport is great to have for top-to-bottom mobility - this is a huge advantage when it comes to dragon and golem control, as well as, later in the game, bottom-to-top mobility for controlling Baron. It's also nice for some nasty teleport-onto-ward ganks when using certain insta-gib heroes, but in both cases this is reliant on good teamwork and warding and coordination.

Cleanse
Post-nerf most people swear by not using Cleanse, and it's definitely become more of a counterpick (ie. vs Ashe etc.) or a luxury spell. On certain playstyles/heroes where you're always in their face, having Cleanse can be the difference between life and death. Other people, particularly those confident in their reaction speed, simply rely on Flash/Ghost (for instance) to avoid projectile-based disables. This is going to be up to you and your judgment when it comes to how much you need Cleanse. There really is no easy answer.

Revive, Rally, and Heal
Niche or out-right bad: I can't think of any spellcasters that use this. You can kind of make an argument for Rally (70 AP at level 18) but...

Smite
Solely for jungling purposes - a handful of "casters" can jungle, like Nunu and Sion, but those things can and will be covered in their respective threads. For the most part, though, steer clear.

Fortify
Extremely niche. Aside from a gimmick 5-fort team you're probably never going to use this.



Masteries



Runes and common runesets



Opening Items
Doran’s Ring vs Doran’s Shield
This is a surprisingly difficult decision for many heroes: you want the mana regen, but the base mana regen for casters tends to be kinda okay, while the HP regen tends to be terrible. Buying a Meki Pendant to open is very discouraged because that lack of 130 HP can and will get you killed or zoned. This is actually the case for Sapphire Crystals as well.

Shield gives you a crucial bit of HP regen, which you will definitely feel against good opponents. You’ll have to play your hero and determine whether you need HP or mana more (take into account how fast you chew through mana) .

Sapphire Crystal
For many heroes this (Crystal + 2x heal) isn't recommended. The simple reason is that the lower base HP does affect some things. For example, good players will generally not allow you to beat them down in a one-sided exchange, especially knowing that you're a spellcaster whose ranged damage is limited by cooldown... and by casting range. To top things off, the majority of opponents you'll face will also pack some sort of burst. This is just the way the game is. This puts a premium on keeping your HP above a certain threshold, and also winning slugfests of attrition. To this end Sapphire Crystal is "not good."

There are exceptions though. For example if you’re an Annie player, you have lane control via your massive instantaneous burst. That means that you have less HP to burn through - juxtapose this to a hero like Tristana (ignore that she's not a spellcaster for a second). Good Tristana players whittle you down with active Explosive while trading blows with you. Once you hit about 200-300 HP you're at risk of being insta-killed by a Rocket + Explosive combo. That means if you have 800 HP he has to cut through 500-600 hp. On the other hand if you have 500 HP you might as well be half-dead. This is a bit of an exaggeration because you're only really down 130 but it's noticeable. On the flip side Annie's level 6 burst is some 500-600 damage (I forget), which lends itself to some tense HP jungling for the opponent... and is why she's a strong laner. Thus, with such a burst advantage, you can get a Sapphire and not have to worry about the disparity in HP buffer.

Meki Pendant
Just keeping this here for posterity - Meki Pendant is a terrible opening because mana regen is a weak stat, and you end up with the same opening EHP (via 2x pots) as a Sapphire Crystal.

Amplifying Tome
Yes, this is actually a legitimate opening for a select few heroes: Jungle Fiddle comes to mind, and if you're confident in mana management, this can let you jump-start into something like a really fast Soulstealer.



Boots
The simple answer is,
damage = sorc boots
mobility = swiftness/mobility (based on hero/proximity to combat)
survival = treads
Feel comfortable swapping boots mid-game, I've had many games where I open with Sorc for the early/mid-game damage boost and then I swap to Treads as I start getting FF'd and I have Void dealing with MR. The swap from sorc to treads makes a HUGE difference.


"Big" items
Abyssal Scepter
You might be surprised at how not-good this item is, but it has its spots. If you need emergency MR, the Negatron cloak in the recipe can turn into Abyssal if you want MR but don’t want to invest into a pure defensive item (Banshee’s Veil/Quicksilver Sash). The –MR is not going to be too visible unless you’re Fiddle or Amumu, in my opinion, especially once you get Void Staff.



Champions
By archetype

Pondering AP ratios, and what they mean
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mrgerry
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1508 Posts
November 05 2010 02:14 GMT
#2
So.... are you asking for our opinions of Doran's Ring vs Doran's Shield (vs Sapphire Crystal), Abyssal Scepter or is this supposed to be a guide you're creating. If it's supposed to be a guide you should add when they are applicable (ex. Sapphire Crystal for champs who turn really strong at 6 and are just trying to get to their catalyst to be op and never leave lane like Kass/Anivia/Malzahar). Just curious I read the part where you said rundown of each champion under the category but I didn't know if you meant the different casters or the categories of items.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 05 2010 02:19 GMT
#3
Silly Potato.

Uta probably doesn't have a complete idea of what he wants to cover here. It's just supposed to be a general overview of caster carries and their purported role on SR. So the different casters, I presume.

What you mentioned about Ring vs Shield vs Blue Crystal is a good start. Which items is more recommended for what particular champions, etc.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
November 05 2010 02:29 GMT
#4
I think abyssal is a great item for your AP tank to grab. The -20 Magic Reduction is actually pretty insane, and for its cost, abyssal is one of the best items in the game. If you've got sorc boots as a caster and maybe a haunting guise, with runes you can be looking at 70+ magic penetration/reduction. 70 is a solid number for what most squishies are gonna have at the time that abyssal comes into play, so you'll be doing full damage to squishies.

Void Staff comes into play instead when you're facing beefier champs, OR if you've outlived your role as a caster and you need tank items, but you don't want your spells to just bounce off the enemies. A sole void staff will give you enough penetration to make a mark, but lategame you won't be bursting anyone down.
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-05 05:29:08
November 05 2010 05:24 GMT
#5
I was intending to do like an item by item guide, different openings, etc but I'm having trouble thinking of a way to format it cleanly, and the few paragraphs I posted were done during class, lol. I'll probably fix it up in ~10 min increments for the next few days, then when this round of projects(+1 test) is done I'll get back to it in earnest. More of an "I'm doing this, don't snatch it QQ" sort of thread OP so far. Hopefully also going to end up being a pretty good collection of debates for items and runes and masteries and such. For instance, I know a lot of people open Sapphire on certain heroes, but I'm not sure which you can do this on - I don't do it on Kassadin because it rapes his lane control.

It's definitely a long-term project, because if someone (of any skill-level) decides they want to play a caster, I'd like for them to open up this thread/first post and get a really long explanation of how players think about certain items and such, lets them be less of a drone and get a better understanding of why different players do their different things, because almost every spellcaster champion has a huge list of things they can do, some better than others but often simply a case of preference.
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
November 05 2010 09:58 GMT
#6
Looking forward to caster thread by Uta, I know I've learned a lot about playing champs from him.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-05 10:06:03
November 05 2010 10:05 GMT
#7
I was surprised to learn people go sapphire first with the reasoning that it's fine because you can lean on strength of spirit. That seems like poor logic since sapphire only gains you an extra 3 hp per five, pretty awful. I'd rather just get boots, at least you can run back faster from your fountain.
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
nyxnyxnyx
Profile Joined April 2010
Indonesia2978 Posts
November 05 2010 10:05 GMT
#8
Summoner spell discussion would be cool. Like... Exhaust VS Ignite VS Flash VS Ghost VS Clarity VS Teleport VS ... you get the idea.
cool beans
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-05 16:58:17
November 05 2010 16:57 GMT
#9
Changed the sections a bit to be an Opening Item discussion, and listed/explained common openings. Also explained what I feel is the only way to take Sapphire without being screwed by it. I guess the next section I'll work on is the summoner spell section. RIP Promote.
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Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
November 06 2010 00:00 GMT
#10
Did Summoner Spells, added some stuff as a reminder to myself what I'd like to add in the future. If anyone has contrary opinions on SSpells, things to add, those things post away :D
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Yiruru
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada690 Posts
November 06 2010 00:45 GMT
#11
Why so much hate on Abyssal
Been getting it more and more lately, just get 70 MPen basically and pewpew squishies
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
November 06 2010 00:48 GMT
#12
I don't hate it, I get it sometimes :x
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barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 10:34:17
November 08 2010 10:27 GMT
#13
i really get hung up between mercs vs sorcs. the thing is i feel both of them really significantly (the extra pen is so good, but the cc reduction is amazing as well) and cant decide which i want. Ranged dps i've come to rely on zerks to maximize dmg output since my positioning has gotten a loot better since the last time the whole 'is mercs worth it' thing came up, but maximizing spell dmg seems a bit more silly since there are far fewer clear-cut ap carries than there are ad carries, ive found that most ap burst heroes that benefit from sorcs have a clear dominant period in the midgame where the spellpen rapes face, but then become practically support/cc champs late game, which would make mercs a better option. Ofc, i could be completely wrong about everything and one of these options is just trash. In any case, would be nice to be enlightened

edit: and just to make sure, ofc i know that if they have 10 million single target hard cc's (galio, rammus, sion, taric, ashe team for example) where every1 is cc'ing the shit out of me, naturally i get mercs. and ofc, if they have 0 cc period, (akali, ez, sivir, mf, morde) i get sorcs, kus mercs aren't going to do shit, but in a more balanced game where its less obvious...
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
November 08 2010 12:57 GMT
#14
You said it yourself. Most that have clear dominant period in midgame needs that sorcs. Getting sorcs > Getting AP.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
November 08 2010 15:17 GMT
#15
I think with spellcasters you end up more with the Sorcs vs Treads vs Mob ;p I usually run straight Sorc, only switching out if they're seriously FFing me with some nasty stuff (Galio ult primarily). Mob on heroes like Janna (but I have that luxury only if I have Cleanse for C->Ult), etc. As you said yourself, if you position properly they won't be able to land that much CC on you, so it can often be avoided.
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gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
November 08 2010 15:20 GMT
#16
BEARbsq what I do with annie/leblanc is start with sorc boots so you can make the absolute most of their level 6-13 dominance and then as you enter the stage of the game where you can't burst people down any more, sell the sorcs and buy mercs. You're going to reduce your damage output only slightly at this point, and up your survival greatly. As far as I'm concerned, unless you've got 20 stacks and a zonya and you can still burst down their tank with one spell, mercs are required as ap carries turn into ap stunbots/supports lategame
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Jaksiel
Profile Joined November 2008
United States4130 Posts
November 08 2010 15:23 GMT
#17
Do you ever get Tear of the Goddess on spam-happy heroes (like Heimerdinger), or do you rely on being able to hog Blue buff and just build standard ROA-Zhonya's-etc.?
Zero fighting.
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
November 08 2010 15:28 GMT
#18
On November 09 2010 00:23 Jaksiel wrote:
Do you ever get Tear of the Goddess on spam-happy heroes (like Heimerdinger), or do you rely on being able to hog Blue buff and just build standard ROA-Zhonya's-etc.?


Heimer generally wants to build multiple Doran's rings to give him mana regen and a bit of survivability, then rush zhonya's because of his great farming capabilities. I think you'll find that Utahime in general isn't in support of Tears of the Goddess but its got its niche roles. Karthus? Anivia? I think those two casters can make good use of it because Karthus is literally a facerolling spammer and Anivia doesn't have to dedicate much to survivability due to her imba passive. I honestly can't think of anyone else I'd get it on besides MAYBE sona but there are so many other items i'd get first on her...
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Jaksiel
Profile Joined November 2008
United States4130 Posts
November 08 2010 15:29 GMT
#19
Thanks, I didn't really think about going multiple Ring on Heimer but that's good to know in advance of another free Heimer week (love playing that guy).
Zero fighting.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
November 08 2010 15:46 GMT
#20
Tears of the Goddess is generally a very, very weak item because it gives a weak stat and no survivability. You should always, always be skeptical when you pick it up. "Is this REALLY worth 1000 gold?"

Incidentally I'm actually one of very few top-500 players that will occasionally buy Tears. Most players will laugh at you.
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