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Hello teamliquid! My previous topic is removed because I never provided replays. This time I will not make this mistake again  . I will upload 1 replay and other replays will follow later.
I still got huge problems in tvz. I win 60% of my tvt and tvp games (most of the time against 900+ players), but I almost never win a tvz (I actually win only when my 5 rax reaper succeed). I decided to do the 5 rax reaper build, not because I like it but because I almost never won a tvz.
The problem: banelings. If my 5 rax reaper fails (most of the time against zergs who do not drone up, but make speedlings instead), I lose (99%). What did I try?
1) transition into pure bio. Fungal growth and banelings just laugh with it.
2) transition into tank marine: I remember playing a zerg. I take down his army. I take down his third. He remakes his army in a very short time. I missmicro my rines. I lose 100%. One little missmicro and you're dead. I don't like this.
The replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/71717-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
My goal was to pressure him as much as possible, but he just made banelings, 1a'ed, remade banelings, 1a'ed, "continue while expanding".
Another game (don't have the replay): my opponent has 160 supply, I have 200 (10 tanks, a thor and rines) + 1 more base then him. I siege in front of his base. He attacks with: 3 ultras, a ton of speedlings and a lot of banelings. I stim my rines and retreat with them (hi banelings), his speedlings + ultras surround my tanks. My tanks die and my rines get slaughtered by the surviving speedlings + ultras. I macro as hard as possible but his ultras just kept my unit numbers low so I lost.
I am not saying that this matchup is imbalanced, but I just don't get it. I can't find any RECENT tvz replays where the terran wins if his 5 rax reaper fails / if he doesn't go 5 rax reaper. I just don't get it how a 200/200 terran army can lose so hard against a 160 supply zerg army. I micro'ed my bio, but tanks are not microable when sieged. When I ask zergs for advice they answer with "hmm don't know what you can do" or "I lose vs MMM".
What is welcome? Replays and advice. I know that I have to harass + pressure the zerg, and I really try to do this.
What is not welcome? Terran hatewhine. I know that a lot of people think that it's the easiest 1a race ever, but I don't have that feeling.
My previous topic:
Hello teamliquid! After losing 12 times to zerg today and winning all my other matchups I decided to make a thread. I'm a 900 diamond terran (today I dropped to 850 because of zerg) and I am having HUGE problems against zerg. Let me first explain the situation: 1) Before zergs found out about the muta spread (see about it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145936) I could go tanks, helions and thors. This was enough to fight muta baneling speedling and some other combinations. It wasn't easy but I had a chance tough. 2) After zergs found out about the muta spread, my thors do no splashdamage anymore so I need to add rines with stim and shields. More rines means less minerals so less helions and less tanks. I always move out when the zerg takes his third because we all know that a zerg on 3 base is horror. I move out, spreading tanks, sieging and unsieging towards his third and macro'ing like crazy. Then there are 2 scenarios: 1) zerg has 5 ultras (seriously, on 3 bases...) and alot of speedlings and some mutas. 2) zerg has a lot of mutas, speedlings and banelings. Some zergs got even roaches. Especially scenario 2 is hell. The zerg flanks me with: first speedlings (imagine ALOT of speedlings coming from everywhere) and banelings. If I have a lot of rines then my tank count is low and so banelings just rip my rines into pieces. I try to micro my rines but it's almost impossible. Somehow the zerg always manages to take down my rines and then it's muta party. If he doesn't take out my rines? Np, then he took out my tanks while I was running for his banelings. I tried: - pure thor + some rines and helions --> neutral parasite owned me. - tanks, 2 thors, helions and some rines --> zerg just overran me. Somethimes a low count of rines survive but that's not enough against the muta force. I know that I have to micro vs banelings but when speedlings as fast as light are coming from everywhere, I am blocked most of the time so the banelings have a free roll. My build: rax, fact, 21 CC, 3 facts, 1 rax and then pump rines, 2 thors and tanks + some helions (not that many because of the rine count...). When zerg goes muta's, then I need to build turrets. No problem. But when I move out, zergs tend to take out those turrets very fast (20+ muta's just destroy turrets) and then my scv's are very vulnarable. By the time I'm at his third, he retreats and he will be just in time to fight my forces. I see people complaining about terran being imbalanced. I seriously don't have that feeling as a terran. I was shocked by the answers from zergs when I asked them what to do. Five zergs answered (no joke, seriously): "go 5 rax reaper, that's your only option". I don't go 5 rax reaper because it feels like cheating to me. Some zergs answered "harass me more". I wonder with what I can harass? Against good zergs a fast helion rush does not work. They will always cover their ramp with queens / roaches. Banshees feel very weak for me against a zerg. Whet else can I do? After reading the upcoming patchnotes I just feel bad. My tanks will be even weaker so terrans will have to go more bio. Fungal growth + banelings and your whole force is gone in some seconds. Can someone help me?
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With TvZ, I tend to go 2 factories to produce hellions and slowly into tanks, whilst one barracks would be slowly pumping out marines. Hellion harass and tank/marine push is basically first phase, if that doesn't work and i see he is teching into mutas, I continue building tanks and attempt to get thors up. I may or may not build banshees, although they are extremely effective at destroying his drones and harassing (2 banshees max). I find TvZ to be my best, and try my best to deny the zerg expansions. I've tried reapers a few times but i generally like using mech.
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The trick is to put constant pressure on the zerg, otherwise you'll loose.
It's not that easy to do, but you must be super agressive.
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baneling 1a works only if the terran 1a his army. you can kite speed baneling on creep with stim
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I don't know what to tell you but don't post replays saying some zerg just "made banelings and 1Aed" when in reality it's a 250-300apm zerg (while you're at a solid 60-70) that you gave away 4/6 starting reapers trying to go into his main. He held your early aggression, scouted that you were just going mass marine to handle his muta harass and waited for you to push onto his creep to baneling them.
Not saying you're bad but you faced a far superior opponent and claimed he just 1a'ed with banelings, that's pretty bm :/
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
I haven't watched the replay, but you don't have to go overboard with the reapers, forcing him to over-comit on speedlins over drones is damage enough, that just means you must take your expo sooner then later and keep that economy advantage to your favor, later on start use the mobility of bio to drop on several locations. Also always have OC energy saved up before moving out, Creep is your worst enemy (scan and clear that shit up).
Edit:
Just watched the replay
You went 5rax reaper even though he didn't fast expo. The whole purpose of 5rax reaper is to choke and punish the zerg user for overextending himself.
Your first push was a big fail, you scan his army and so numerous banelings, yet you still moved out with all marines force + 2marauders. You need more then 2marauders to absorb that many baneling damage. you should have had marauders + tanks to absorb bane dmg / And siege tanks to obliterate incoming banelings, while running your stim marines at the very back. Positioning and unit composition is the key to fight against high baneling zerg army.
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Ok dude i watched your replay and i want to tell you your decisionmaking is terrible.
I'm a 1100 zerg and when I play reaperopening with terran against my zergbuddies in train i execute that same strategy much better than you do.
Early Game
You went for 3rax reapers thats fine, but you delayed your nitro, for no reason, lost that bunker by backup that reaper for no reason and you never reached the critical amount of reapers.
You saw 20+ zerglings and you go with 4-5 reapers for the main, that's a waste, just build more reapers you should be able to get more than he can build zerglings out of one hatch, with 10 reapers you can easily micro 30-40 zerlings offcreep without loosing a reaper and end the game right there.
Midgame armycomposition
You just A-clicked small MM forces several time wich is just a gg when zerg has any banelings. And there where timings you had way to less marauders and way to many marines As a zergplayer i tell you my vespin is my key, i have to dicide if I use that on muta or on baneling. If a Zerg is heavy on Baneling you need less marines and more marauders, if he is low on baneling and high on muta you need more marines and less marauders...
Your armycomposition sucked at all, a viable followup to reapers is: MMM TANK
You never had a single tank on the field, what really hurts me. Siegetanks do 50 damage each shoot with high splash, thats they key against ling baneling. Banelings have 30 life so a single tankshoot with micro can kill easily 4-5 Banelings. You also need that medivacs! Stim is such a great ability in combination with medivacs and if you marines are in trouble against banelings you can backup that marines. You should also watch you Upgrades 1-0 after 25minutes in the game is not as great... 3-3 marines perform muuuuuuuch better against that muta.
Midgame attacking
You had no mapcontrol the entire midgame and just A-clicked army after amy into their death.
When you have reapertech and medivacs you will be able to get some mapcontrol back. Just get 5 Reapers or a Medivac full of marines in the Midgame to scout and harass his thierd (fourth) expansion. Especially when you want to push out! He needs to save his expansions and will call all that muta or all that speedling back so you can push out with MMMTank much easier cause he is out of position.
Overall I dont like a terran going 3/5 rax reapers, cause his followup is very hard and micro intense against muta/ling/baneling. But it seems to be a viable strategy with lot of potential, but you need to work on your decision makeing. If you scan 8 banelings 8 muta 30 speedling do not move out with 20 marines and 3 marauders!!! If you see 24 zerglings dont go in with 5 Reapers just wait for 5 more and so on...
If you want to train some tvz just message me ID: 529
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On September 04 2010 22:00 sieesch wrote:
Ok dude i watched your replay and i want to tell you your decisionmaking is terrible.
I'm a 1100 zerg and when I play reaperopening with terran against my zergbuddies in train i execute that same strategy much better than you do.
Early Game
You went for 3rax reapers thats fine, but you delayed your nitro, for no reason, lost that bunker by backup that reaper for no reason and you never reached the critical amount of reapers.
You saw 20+ zerglings and you go with 4-5 reapers for the main, that's a waste, just build more reapers you should be able to get more than he can build zerglings out of one hatch, with 10 reapers you can easily micro 30-40 zerlings offcreep without loosing a reaper and end the game right there.
Midgame armycomposition
You just A-clicked small MM forces several time wich is just a gg when zerg has any banelings. And there where timings you had way to less marauders and way to many marines As a zergplayer i tell you my vespin is my key, i have to dicide if I use that on muta or on baneling. If a Zerg is heavy on Baneling you need less marines and more marauders, if he is low on baneling and high on muta you need more marines and less marauders...
Your armycomposition sucked at all, a viable followup to reapers is: MMM TANK
You never had a single tank on the field, what really hurts me. Siegetanks do 50 damage each shoot with high splash, thats they key against ling baneling. Banelings have 30 life so a single tankshoot with micro can kill easily 4-5 Banelings. You also need that medivacs! Stim is such a great ability in combination with medivacs and if you marines are in trouble against banelings you can backup that marines. You should also watch you Upgrades 1-0 after 25minutes in the game is not as great... 3-3 marines perform muuuuuuuch better against that muta.
Midgame attacking
You had no mapcontrol the entire midgame and just A-clicked army after amy into their death.
When you have reapertech and medivacs you will be able to get some mapcontrol back. Just get 5 Reapers or a Medivac full of marines in the Midgame to scout and harass his thierd (fourth) expansion. Especially when you want to push out! He needs to save his expansions and will call all that muta or all that speedling back so you can push out with MMMTank much easier cause he is out of position.
Overall I dont like a terran going 3/5 rax reapers, cause his followup is very hard and micro intense against muta/ling/baneling. But it seems to be a viable strategy with lot of potential, but you need to work on your decision makeing. If you scan 8 banelings 8 muta 30 speedling do not move out with 20 marines and 3 marauders!!! If you see 24 zerglings dont go in with 5 Reapers just wait for 5 more and so on...
If you want to train some tvz just message me ID: 529
Not arguing or debating, but I still think he should have stopped with the reapers once he saw the other guy was quick teching for higher tier units (obviously one base Muta play). and quickly put down CC on natural with bunkers and prepare for the incoming Mutas. terran should then transition his 3techlabs from 3barracks to 2fact 1starport, with intentions of massing marines from rax and one raven and medivac from starport, and tanks/hellion/thors from fact (depending on zergs unit composition).
Too dente, hellions without preignite are useless on head to head battles.
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So... I watched the game.
1) your execution of the build was pretty poor, I didn't really understand what you were trying to do.The bunker was useless. When I do these reapers rushes I don't build any bunker =/
2) when his muta come, you have a timing window: he'll have almost no ground army so at the ~10 min mark you should have pushed with your marines (+maybe scv, you were already far behind). You lost after banelings came at the 12min mark.
So the key is to pressure your opponent. When I do these reapers build I prefer going
- 10 rax
- 11 ref
- 11 supply
- 11 oc
You'll get a slightly faster reapers. You took your 2nd gaz too fast aswell. I tried to 5 rax reapers aswell but that's just too hard to do. 3 rax reapers expand is more reliable imo. You shouldn't have suicided your reapers too.
If you aren't comforable with reaper harass, hellions/marines rushes work very well.
With this strat the hellion/marines rush come very fast... and your expansion too.
http://rts-sanctuary.com/index.php?portal=RTS&showtopic=189923
You can't allow the zerg to contain you with mutalisks or you will loose and that's what happened. Always pressure the zerg no matter what.
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Your opponent played very well imo. You can't win 'em all. Terran have many different options against zerg, zerg very few against terran.
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Wouldn't having mutalisks mean the Zerg is the one with map control? Mutas + lings can react fairly quickly to drops. Mutas alone can contain and harass and kill dropships that come out.
The replay doesn't work for me but from hearing the APM, your opponent is just far superior. These diamond number ratings mean very little.
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watched the rep:
1. you messed up the early game hard
- right when ure rax finished u had 195 minerals and 15scv which was good ... BUT you build a totaly useless bunker that second instead of starting 1 marine+OC (while waiting for techlab gas) and so u delayed ure orbitalcommand quite a bit.
If you had build one marine your timeing would be far better: as soon as its done u build a techlab, when lab is done u can start reaper and reaper speed the same second
2. mules
after OC finished it had ~60 energy before u used mule. later on you got supply blocked again and again, wasting energy on supply call. in addition u wasted one scan when zerg started his spire... you should have reapers in his base which harras and scout everything.
when you scanned the spire u had about 100 energy... that would be so many minerals if you mule better and dont get supply blocked
3. second gas
u had only 1 worker on second gas forever and even couldnt spend your gas because of beeing supply blocked all the time + bad worker production.
later on u put a second guy on gas while u couldnt spend the gas u already had .... ???
4. no constant worker production
5. leads from 2,3 and 4:
at least two of your five rax didnt produce units for a very long time becaus of your bad eco/worker/mule/supply managenemt
6. the Zerg did just play SO MUCH better than u did. even when a lot of his apm was spamming - the difference was just so huge. he was simply faster than you and made better decisions.
concluding one can say: you lost because u totaly fucked up early game - put no presure on the zerg and your macro was horrible + your opponent was clearly on a different skill lvl
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Was very impressed with the zerg's play. He's currently 995 points in diamond with a record of 266 wins, 237 losses, ratio of 52.88%, ranked #2887 in the world, he peaked at 1100+ points on the 26th of August and now seems to be stabilizing around 1000 pts. Funny thing is he's not even the highest ranked Eon, there's an Eon on the NA servers with 1200+ points! Damn I have no chance at all at making it to the top 1000...
Eon from Euro server: http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/4333041
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On September 05 2010 00:45 Azro wrote:
4. no constant worker production
This this this! You had 5 raxes but early game I only saw about 2-3 seconds of production from all the raxes at the same time because you didn't have enough workers. If you had more workers, you'd have more units. Your early game was extremely weak. You can still 3/5 rax reaper against 1 base muta for a while but your lack of workers lead to not enough reapers which lead to inneffective harass--ironically if you had just been making workers it wouldn't have mattered because you would have been incredibly far ahead in econ. This should be your #1 priority--try to constantly be making workers early game and watch your replays, win or lose after the game is over to see if you are, I know you might not think that this is the major issue in your play, but it is and once you start doing it other doors will open for you.
Funny/more subtle issues:
1) You put an SCV inside a bunker for a very long time.
2) You didn't salvage the first bunker when you had given up on it (why did you move out? did you not want to control his ramp/not have enough stuff? I don't understand this place if you then don't either reinforce it or salvage it when you leave your bunker)
3) Work on your sim city, there's no reason to float the raxes for that long.
4) There's only one guy on gas for a very long time and in general you had too much gas anyway. Either don't get the gas or make enough workers to support the minerals/gas--additionally if you had kept yourself not supply blocked so you didn't have to use calldown you would have been able to use mules to help even this out.
5) Why did you bring workers with you at your first push? They're not going to help against banelings. For that matter you pushed without anything to really deal with the blings--your micro was actually pretty decent though.
6) Your push timings often don't make sense. For instance, you pushed at around 19-20 minutes right BEFORE you got combat shields, not after.
7) No starport ever and 1000+ gas. You didn't go beyond "mineral units". Now, this might not necessarily be an awful thing but if you do this you have to be more aggressive, mobile and expand a lot more, drop more turrets for muta defense etc. That doesn't seem to be your playstyle so I'd suggest teching to medivacs and ravens (HSM is insane against the bling ball if they don't notice it or the muta ball and PDD shuts down muta harass, also gives detection for burrowed blings and if the zerg was better and had spread creep this would help to counteract that). The medivacs allow you to stim more in response to muta harass. I'd also consider adding just one or two thors (4 factories only producing hellions isn't good) because if the huge muta ball comes in target firing something the thors will punish that by splashing them for terrible terrible damage.
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You made it real easy on your opponent by not adding medivacs. With an army that is basically all bio, you have to add meds to the mix. Also as mentioned before, 1-0 marines won't cut it that late.
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5 Rax reaper isn't a build that "succeeds" or fails... it's not an all-in (assuming you put down a command center at a proper time). It's a build that is supposed allow you to transition favorably to a midgame.
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EPT
