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Russian Federation81 Posts
![[image loading]](http://bourgy.com/images/not_this_shit_again.jpeg)
Hello guys, first of all: this thread is not much about balance discussion or TvZ whine or whatever. It's just my observations & thoughts, little bit influenced by the fact i play Zerg.
What i noticed from watching hasu+ replays, is that "Income" tab usually indicated about the same values for both players until mid game and further.. And number of "harvesters" usually going almost the same for both opponents until about 60+ supply mark, however zerg lead in harvesters not always warranties higher income.
Moreover, in particular TvZ example second hatchery doesn't shows a big diffidence if Terran uses Mules constantly, until Zerg saturate his natural by about 70%, after that profit really goes higher (big exception there is a gas which Terran can't mule).
As for Protoss, for most replays we can notice even higher harvesters rate than Zerg one (if Toss not performing some of allins) and over saturating his base with intention to move it out for the 2nd base when it completes).
I'm not saying it's OMG its imba, lets fix it, etc, cause Zerg still winning decently yet, but i just interested how the "myth" of "Zerg" superiority influences people, which is not actually that much true.
What i think that both T and P will start to dominate Zerg in future when game evolves enough and players will capitalize these Macro instruments as MULE and Chronoboost for probes to be always equal with Zegr or little bit slightly behind.
Why Zerg have economic advantage after all? Answer: they usually have more bases (1) and more drones (2), so they have higher income.
Also Zergs players psychologically favors for more bases than opponent and they usually have enough resources for that (3).
(2) actually is more or less a myth, from watching replays i noticed at late-mid or late game number of workers almost equals for both players.
(1) is a true right now, but i believe it will evolve. In fact zerg have almost same cost for making a base - 350 (count drone), and their bases don't have superior protection too. You may argue that they have larvae and spines so their bases could be protected more easily, but in fact, T & P have decent defense right now too (at least vs Zerg).
(3) Zerg economy favors for "burst" consumption, due the fact of Larva inject mechanics and overall. So they always have a "spare" minerals which they use to make a bases. T&P just trying to always produce a units and they can't afford much delay in that, that way they dont usually have resources for more bases.
Terran" PF & turrets makes impossible for zerg to harass, not mentioning to kill workers w/o crowd of like 2 packs of units.
Protoss canons (which people currently underused imo) + warp gates (warping HT anyone?) makes the same role - canons held on harassment, HT can keep enemies out untill main forces come.
The only real advantage for Zerg is that can produce lost of drones instantly if needs, but in standard game ppl dont lose too much harvesters, and just transferring it from one point from other.
Conclusion:
- P & T will get in future more bases and will just use more resources for defense for these "extra bases".
- P & T will start to produce harvesters constantly, preparing it for future bases. Now they're halt production at some reasonable time mark like mid game.
- Zergs player will evolve to that:
![[image loading]](http://baby.more4kids.info/uploads/Image/May/baby-crying.jpg)
UPDATE:
tl;dr
Toss & Terran don't making bases in amount that they actually could. Reasons - they're think they can't "afford" a new base and protect that, but in fact it seems that both races could get it for almost same cost, could get about the same amount of workers if making harvesters constantly, even if base already saturated, not only for your natural but for 3rd base too (for T compensated as a MULE) and have a perfect protection tools as PF or underused canons + warp gate.
also currently 1 base terran/toss = 2 base of Zerg by 10-12 minute mark due of full/over saturation/mules.
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A hatchery costs less than a command center or Nexus. 3 drones can be produced at the same time from one hatchery. (even more with queens helping)
It's only natural that they should have a bit of an edge in that regard. But you also have to take into account that a lot of those drones end up becoming buildings. And a lot of the time they'll get harassed and lose a bunch, which will even things out.
It's not too extreme, but they do have a naturally better economy for the most part. That's kind of the zerg "thing". So I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove here.
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I'm not an expert, but I think you're overlooking the importance of saturation. Gas income maxes out at 6 workers, and Minerals have diminishing returns past 16. Being able to spread workers between more bases means Zerg can potentially have a higher income even with the same number of harvesters.
On a lighter note, you can't deny that having a Dronegasm and making 7+ workers at the same time just feels good.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I really dont get this thread.
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Zerg's expansions are way cheaper considering that the hatchery doubles as production structures. A hatchery costs little more than 2 raxes and have roughly the same production capacity, so when the terran goes 3 rax you can go pool + hatch and you are not behind in military production.
And naked hatcheries are better defended than naked command centers or naked nexuses simply because of the creep surrounding it. The problem is not the economy or so, zerg definitely got the easiest to expand etc, the problem lies that the advantage of having expansions provide production as well do not outweigh the disadvantage of having overall weaker units than the other races. The next patch should fix these issues just fine.
Lastly this thread proves that some zerg players have already evolved into this:
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On August 29 2010 21:26 Voyager I wrote:
I'm not an expert, but I think you're overlooking the importance of saturation. Gas income maxes out at 6 workers, and Minerals have diminishing returns past 16. Being able to spread workers between more bases means Zerg can potentially have a higher income even with the same number of harvesters.
On a lighter note, you can't deny that having a Dronegasm and making 7+ workers at the same time just feels good.
Protoss player: "hmmm i think i need more probes....there we go chronoing 4 probes on the way, in a minute my income should be better now. hmm lets switch to my observer see what the zerg is doing (see's 8 drones all spit out) ..............................................."
thats what i imagine what other races do all the time 
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- P & T will get in future more bases and will just use more resources for defense for these "extra bases".
- P & T will start to produce harvesters constantly, preparing it for future bases. Now they're halt production at some reasonable time mark like mid game.
- Zergs player will evolve to:
Mutas deal with this already. T and P cannot expand over the map when Z has map control from ling/muta.
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I must admit im scratching my head.. you have a wall of text with no discernable agenda... thanks for the brain fodder?
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Actually I think its Zerg need more bases as the game progresses because their units are much less mineral/gas efficient.
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On August 29 2010 21:43 Meldrath wrote:
I must admit im scratching my head.. you have a wall of text with no discernable agenda... thanks for the brain fodder?
This. Though it was a very organized wall of text. With pictures!
Seriously though, try playing Terran in high diamond TvZ, unit imba aside. I feel a ticking countdown of doom the longer I play the zerg. Basically my thought process is this:
Did I force him/her [hereinafter referred to as male for simplicity] to make units/spine crawlers yet? Oh crap, he's probably already up 3 expansions! MUST HARASS now. He's probably got the gold by now.
Pretty much I'm giving myself a heart attack every 10 seconds to make sure I'm harassing the zerg into spending into an army, not drone whoring his best Idra impression.
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Russian Federation81 Posts
i updated post with tl;dr section.
just thought you guys need some food for thoughts (english not my native sorry :D)
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It is almost like the races are balanced economically.
Seriously what you just pointed to suggests the game is balanced. If zerg always had an economic advantage it would be an imbalance.
Terran has to waste a lot of mining time on buliding structures, they get the mule to make up for this.
Protoss get chronoboost which allows them to out econ Terran by a large margin if they don't use their mules.
Zerg has to lose drones to build structures so they get a mechanic that allows them to build more than 1 drone at a time.
The Zerg economic advantage is that if they dont' have to build any units they will out econ the others every time. If left alone and allowed to spend all larvae on drones they will always win the econ war. That is why people put constant pressure on the Zerg player to try to get him to make units and spine crawlers to slow his econ down.
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youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility.
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don`t be afraid, the MULE wil be nerfed eventually, it`s ridiculously overpowered, it`s obvious.
in addition someday there will be a feasible minderal dump for Z because at the moment zerglings are extremely inferior to zealots and marines ... and they do cost precious larva.
patch 1.1 is pointing in this direction (warpgate cooldown).
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The mule is a bit insane but yeah zerg doesn't just get the economical advantage by expanding but they also get another unit producing structure.
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The real problem is that zerg can't take advantage of having more bases because all the drones you need for each base eats into your supply count. With 2 food roaches your army is going to be really small even without 70 workers.
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On August 29 2010 22:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility.
yeah sc2 would be quite a bit different if we started playing BW maps
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On August 29 2010 22:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility.
People most stop saying this. It's clearly not the truth and just nostalgia from BW
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OP is wrong in about every respect ever. His facts aren't even correct. Lots of terran and tosses employ MASS expanding. The reason people don't do this too often is because zerg lategame (read ultras) is so strong that you wan't to end it before it gets to that point.
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On August 29 2010 22:59 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 22:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility. People most stop saying this. It's clearly not the truth and just nostalgia from BW
there is one "slow" unit in the Z army. the hydra and only off creep.
Z units are the fastest on average, creep only boosts that, Z has the ability to put their whole army in dropships always , has most versatile air and the nydus which is only so underused cause the maps we play on are tiny and bad.
no matter how you look at it. Z has the by far best overall mobility of the 3 races.
the only thing thats similar is pure bio T. the second you add thors/tanks this isnt the case anymore.
imagine playing z on match point instead of steppes. if you dont see how superior Z mobility is then my post is futile anyways.
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EPT
