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Credentials: 1600 plat Terran in beta (b4 diamond)
Hey guys,
I just watched this stream by Day9:
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3637626/
Stream description: "We examine TLO's amazing terran vs zerg style! TLO uses an unorthodox "1 of each unit producing structure" style to make thors, marines, hellion, ravens, tanks and abuse zerg in every way possible early game."
Like Sean, I was blown away by the super-innovative play by TLO. Most of us have nowhere near the high level of adaptability and macro/micro skills, however there is still a great lesson here for TvZ play.
In summary, it is essentially TvZ mech with marines instead of marauders and a starport in place of an early tech lab on factory. The build order is standard 9 depot wallin, 12 rax, grab gas, OC, then factory to complete wallin, all the while making marines and SCVs. Once factory is done, he starts making hellions, making a very early push with his first one + his marines if the zerg did a FE. He also makes a starport (no addons for anything yet), then gets his 2nd gas (earlier or later, depending on aggression / possible earlier expand). The starport makes a viking, medivac, then a reactor, meanwhile he throws down a tech lab on factory, makes a tank, starts his CC to expo, and makes an armory so he can get a quick thor out. He also makes a depot slightly behind his wallin depot so he can later land / build a structure there.
At this point, he has 1 rax, 1 factory with tech lab, and 1 starport with reactor, an armory, his expo on the way and possibly a very good FE harass under his belt or a task force of marines / hellions / tank / thor available, with siege mode and/or pre-igniters researching or already complete. At some point, he lifts off the starport to build a tech lab, and builds a factory on the freed-up reactor.
All throughout this build, he is doing / has the option to do one or more of the following:
* Viking scout
* Hellion drone toastin'
* Thorship
* Tank cliff drop
* Hellion drop
* Banshee harass
Furthermore, he has a readily available counter to the following ZvT strategies:
...in problem :: solution format...
*FE :: very early marine / hellion push (due to skipping the usual reactor on rax in favor of building 2 marines) - note that this does not deny the FE insomuch as it forces the Zerg to make static D / early lings instead of powering drones, meaning that your economy will not be behind even if you start your own expo 3-5 minutes later
* Baneling bust :: ultra strong wall, marine garrison
* Early roach push :: see above, also patch 12 and relatively early tank (squashes roaches at range even without siege mode)
* Speedlings :: hellions, also no need to venture out of base by the time ling speed is done
* Mutas :: add 2 rax and ebay + turrets, make marines / vikings / thors and push, really, mutas would be suicide vs this build (as attested by Sean and shown in game 2).
* Upgraded Hydras :: marines, tanks and hellions along with Raven PDD as gas dump
* Infestors :: siege mode, hellion flank (I know they're not light, but 90 HP drops very quickly to 6 hellions)
* Bro Lords :: add starports, mass vikings & gradual introduction of BCs
The following are possible ZvT counters to this build:
* MASS Banelings :: as discussed by Sean / viewers, I can see how 80 banelings would be able to overrun everything on the ground with the lack of a marauder wall. A possible solution would be to hide your marines / hellions behind a line of sieged tanks, however 80 banelings is only 40 food, and will do 1600 (splash) damage to even non-light targets. Them critters ain't cheap though, and you can easily scout the amass and add marauders + tanks.
* Nydus Drop :: No question, this will end the game if done successfully. Counter - build depots at the edge of your base, pay VERY close attention to your sound / minimap, and have a Thor in your base ready to destroy the worm before it is finished. Constant harasses inside their base may be able to reveal that they have a Nydus Network.
* Early roach / ling backdoor push on Blistering Sands and Incineration Zone :: Obviously this is a problem if you are relying on tanks / wallin to defend vs roaches and are not able to reposition in time to get overrun. On the plus side, this type of push typically arises from 1 base play and you should be able to scout it relatively early on. That said, it may be a better idea to pursue an MM 1/1 timing push build on these maps, particularly because you can abuse the backdoors yourself (and Incineration Zone is particularly favorable for Mutas).
* Overlord drops :: Same logic as Nydus Drop, and even harder to see them coming, plus they can completely negate your tanks if you don't have enough anti-air and they can just scoot over to your siege line. Marines / thors will discourage this, however they can still drop in a corner of your base. Note that this does require two expensive upgrades, you should be able to do a meaningful push before the Zerg can get to this level of crafty / bored.
In conclusion, this is a very strong build that can potentially counter just about any common Zerg strategy, however it requires very high APM in order to be able to both harass/scout and macro simultaneously. If you can only do one at a time (like me, lol), you will probably get overrun or lose to one of the above counters.
All credits go to Sean Plott and TheLittleOne (& some <3 to Dimaga for "helping"). Please let me know if I missed anything important.
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I started trying this build after watching Day9's cast. It worked text-book well the first time I tried it. The zerg went FE, so I pressured with marines hellions, he overcompensated with too many lings crawlers, OH LOOK, my banshees killed your queen and half his drones, he overcompensates by making 2 more queens and spores, but by that time I amove 2 thors into a gg. I chuckled the whole time.
The second time everything was going similarly well, but I lost via overlord drop. He played smarter than me though. I scouted about 20 roaches so I went tank heavy and didn't notice the 8 overlords flying to my tanks until it was too late. Watching the reply I noticed that I neglected to keep up my marine production and my thors were out of position. Nevertheless, I will stick with the build for now. It's main strength is that it is sooooooo versatile. The thing is though, you NEED to be proactive about scouting/scanning in order to make use of its versatility. Even though I haven't found a way to not lose with this, it consistently provides VERY fun games, even when I lose.
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One of the things that day9 only touched on briefly was the amount of scouting needed by the terran player here. The early helions + early air give you full knowledge of the Z base/tech up to a point, but after they have been repelled, as you are building up for your push, you need to scan. Watch TLO use his scans to make sure he has the right unit comp to crush the zerg. The strength of the build is being versitile enough to have the counter to what he has, so you need to ensure you know what it is you need to counter.
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After studying the build for the last couple of days, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to beat it is to abuse the immobility. To elaborate, most Zerg nowadays are using the "mass units and attack" mentality. Obviously, attacking headlong into a mech army is a great way to lose the game. Victory must come from, basically, guerilla warfare.
Surviving through the early stages isn't actually all that hard. You can FE with 2-4 Spine Crawlers and a couple queens, and easily hold off the initial marine/hellion push. Proper positioning of the crawlers and queens (depending on the map) will prevent any sort of hellion driveby. The impulse most Zerg have is to drone hard right after the FE goes up, which will get you killed against this build. Get the defense up, use the larvae, and gradually drone. A few Roaches (which many players have given up altogether) will also help a great deal.
Stage 2 is the inevitable banshees that come shortly after the marine/hellion push. You should already be ready for this with two queens at each hatchery. Proper micro will drive off or kill the banshees, since most T using this build will not build more than 2-4 of them. During this time, you should have about a dozen or so roaches, and should have the spire either going up or already done. The most important part here is to show him your roaches. It'll be an easy win if he decides to start massing marauders.
Stage 3, when the spire is done, get 6 mutalisks, and throw down the Hydra den. Do not get any more than those 6 mutalisks. Their sole purpose is to destroy any Vikings that may be harassing your overlords, gather some intel, and do some harass if you can pull it off without losing any. Use this slight pressure to regain map control, and throw down your second expansion. During this whole time you should be building up a mixed Ling/Roach/Hydra army (not too heavy on the roaches, 12-18 tops).
After this, it's dependent on what direction the opponent is going. The point of the Roaches and the Mutalisk harass (other than regaining map control), is to hopefully limit the number of Tanks that your opponent builds. If he spent his time building Thors, or better yet Marauders, then you're in a good position. If he's got 6 or more tanks, it's a problem. The most important part is map awareness. Under no circumstances should you be attacking headlong into the Terran base. Drops, Nydus, or Mutalisk harass are your weapons of choice here, but it's going to be a drawn-out game. Get more expansions up and starve him out. If he attacks out, hit him while the army is moving, and split your army. Roaches and Hydras from the "front", and have the lings go behind to hit the tanks. Most maps have avenues where you can execute this, with the exception of Kulas Ravine, if he's attacking through the center. If you can destroy the army while it moves, you win.
Otherwise, continue holding map control, don't let him take more expansions, and move toward either Brood Lords or a doom drop/nydus drop. Again, though, the theme is guerilla warfare, try to hit from multiple points at once. If you drop even a couple overlords worth of lings/roach/hydra into his base, he might panic and uproot his whole front defense to deal with it, giving you the opportunity to take out his expansion with the rest of your force.
Above all, never, ever engage the Terran on his terms. If you do that you lose. Wait him out, force him to come to you, or catch him while he moves. If he spends his time reacting to your pokes, you will win. If he gets greedy and tries to attack into your base (and you catch him while he's moving), you'll probably win. If you get bored and attack from the front, or slip up, you're dead.
Edit: Many people suggest Infestors to deal with the Thors. They work very poorly against this build of Terran. There is pretty much no position your infestors can be in where they can NP a Thor and be out of range of the tanks. Any terran paying attention will immediately pop the bug with two tank shots. Fungal Growth is likewise subpar against this build, unless he chooses to go heavy bioball. The damage won't be significant due to the small number of units hit by the growth, and the immobilize doesn't matter because the army is immobile anyway.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 21 2010 01:43 BillyMole wrote:
After studying the build for the last couple of days, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to beat it is to abuse the immobility. To elaborate, most Zerg nowadays are using the "mass units and attack" mentality. Obviously, attacking headlong into a mech army is a great way to lose the game. Victory must come from, basically, guerilla warfare.
Surviving through the early stages isn't actually all that hard. You can FE with 2-4 Spine Crawlers and a couple queens, and easily hold off the initial marine/hellion push. Proper positioning of the crawlers and queens (depending on the map) will prevent any sort of hellion driveby. The impulse most Zerg have is to drone hard right after the FE goes up, which will get you killed against this build. Get the defense up, use the larvae, and gradually drone. A few Roaches (which many players have given up altogether) will also help a great deal.
Stage 2 is the inevitable banshees that come shortly after the marine/hellion push. You should already be ready for this with two queens at each hatchery. Proper micro will drive off or kill the banshees, since most T using this build will not build more than 2-4 of them. During this time, you should have about a dozen or so roaches, and should have the spire either going up or already done. The most important part here is to show him your roaches. It'll be an easy win if he decides to start massing marauders.
Stage 3, when the spire is done, get 6 mutalisks, and throw down the Hydra den. Do not get any more than those 6 mutalisks. Their sole purpose is to destroy any Vikings that may be harassing your overlords, gather some intel, and do some harass if you can pull it off without losing any. Use this slight pressure to regain map control, and throw down your second expansion. During this whole time you should be building up a mixed Ling/Roach/Hydra army (not too heavy on the roaches, 12-18 tops).
After this, it's dependent on what direction the opponent is going. The point of the Roaches and the Mutalisk harass (other than regaining map control), is to hopefully limit the number of Tanks that your opponent builds. If he spent his time building Thors, or better yet Marauders, then you're in a good position. If he's got 6 or more tanks, it's a problem. The most important part is map awareness. Under no circumstances should you be attacking headlong into the Terran base. Drops, Nydus, or Mutalisk harass are your weapons of choice here, but it's going to be a drawn-out game. Get more expansions up and starve him out. If he attacks out, hit him while the army is moving, and split your army. Roaches and Hydras from the "front", and have the lings go behind to hit the tanks. Most maps have avenues where you can execute this, with the exception of Kulas Ravine, if he's attacking through the center. If you can destroy the army while it moves, you win.
Otherwise, continue holding map control, don't let him take more expansions, and move toward either Brood Lords or a doom drop/nydus drop. Again, though, the theme is guerilla warfare, try to hit from multiple points at once. If you drop even a couple overlords worth of lings/roach/hydra into his base, he might panic and uproot his whole front defense to deal with it, giving you the opportunity to take out his expansion with the rest of your force.
Above all, never, ever engage the Terran on his terms. If you do that you lose. Wait him out, force him to come to you, or catch him while he moves. If he spends his time reacting to your pokes, you will win. If he gets greedy and tries to attack into your base (and you catch him while he's moving), you'll probably win. If you get bored and attack from the front, or slip up, you're dead.
Edit: Many people suggest Infestors to deal with the Thors. They work very poorly against this build of Terran. There is pretty much no position your infestors can be in where they can NP a Thor and be out of range of the tanks. Any terran paying attention will immediately pop the bug with two tank shots. Fungal Growth is likewise subpar against this build, unless he chooses to go heavy bioball. The damage won't be significant due to the small number of units hit by the growth, and the immobilize doesn't matter because the army is immobile anyway.
Replay? Because it seems like a bunch of theorycraft to me. I've yet to see any pro have any success with roaches post patch 1.12 vs terran other then holding off an early helion rush. So please enlighten us.
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I stilll like TLO's other build compared to this one which is his 1 rax FE into five fac mech. I do a timing push at +1 armor and 120 food and rape Z pretty well.
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The day9 119 ZvT was pretty good play by zerg, though terran did neglect hellions.
TLO's build is quite strong and the scary thing is, it has room for improvement in it and already dominates even well played zergs. I suspect it can work vs protoss as well, its a very, very flexible opening though in TvP I would expect some ghosts to be thrown in and less Thor.
I suspect some changes upcoming though ^.^
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On May 21 2010 02:21 fathead wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 21 2010 01:43 BillyMole wrote:
After studying the build for the last couple of days, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to beat it is to abuse the immobility. To elaborate, most Zerg nowadays are using the "mass units and attack" mentality. Obviously, attacking headlong into a mech army is a great way to lose the game. Victory must come from, basically, guerilla warfare.
Surviving through the early stages isn't actually all that hard. You can FE with 2-4 Spine Crawlers and a couple queens, and easily hold off the initial marine/hellion push. Proper positioning of the crawlers and queens (depending on the map) will prevent any sort of hellion driveby. The impulse most Zerg have is to drone hard right after the FE goes up, which will get you killed against this build. Get the defense up, use the larvae, and gradually drone. A few Roaches (which many players have given up altogether) will also help a great deal.
Stage 2 is the inevitable banshees that come shortly after the marine/hellion push. You should already be ready for this with two queens at each hatchery. Proper micro will drive off or kill the banshees, since most T using this build will not build more than 2-4 of them. During this time, you should have about a dozen or so roaches, and should have the spire either going up or already done. The most important part here is to show him your roaches. It'll be an easy win if he decides to start massing marauders.
Stage 3, when the spire is done, get 6 mutalisks, and throw down the Hydra den. Do not get any more than those 6 mutalisks. Their sole purpose is to destroy any Vikings that may be harassing your overlords, gather some intel, and do some harass if you can pull it off without losing any. Use this slight pressure to regain map control, and throw down your second expansion. During this whole time you should be building up a mixed Ling/Roach/Hydra army (not too heavy on the roaches, 12-18 tops).
After this, it's dependent on what direction the opponent is going. The point of the Roaches and the Mutalisk harass (other than regaining map control), is to hopefully limit the number of Tanks that your opponent builds. If he spent his time building Thors, or better yet Marauders, then you're in a good position. If he's got 6 or more tanks, it's a problem. The most important part is map awareness. Under no circumstances should you be attacking headlong into the Terran base. Drops, Nydus, or Mutalisk harass are your weapons of choice here, but it's going to be a drawn-out game. Get more expansions up and starve him out. If he attacks out, hit him while the army is moving, and split your army. Roaches and Hydras from the "front", and have the lings go behind to hit the tanks. Most maps have avenues where you can execute this, with the exception of Kulas Ravine, if he's attacking through the center. If you can destroy the army while it moves, you win.
Otherwise, continue holding map control, don't let him take more expansions, and move toward either Brood Lords or a doom drop/nydus drop. Again, though, the theme is guerilla warfare, try to hit from multiple points at once. If you drop even a couple overlords worth of lings/roach/hydra into his base, he might panic and uproot his whole front defense to deal with it, giving you the opportunity to take out his expansion with the rest of your force.
Above all, never, ever engage the Terran on his terms. If you do that you lose. Wait him out, force him to come to you, or catch him while he moves. If he spends his time reacting to your pokes, you will win. If he gets greedy and tries to attack into your base (and you catch him while he's moving), you'll probably win. If you get bored and attack from the front, or slip up, you're dead.
Edit: Many people suggest Infestors to deal with the Thors. They work very poorly against this build of Terran. There is pretty much no position your infestors can be in where they can NP a Thor and be out of range of the tanks. Any terran paying attention will immediately pop the bug with two tank shots. Fungal Growth is likewise subpar against this build, unless he chooses to go heavy bioball. The damage won't be significant due to the small number of units hit by the growth, and the immobilize doesn't matter because the army is immobile anyway. Replay? Because it seems like a bunch of theorycraft to me. I've yet to see any pro have any success with roaches post patch 1.12 vs terran other then holding off an early helion rush. So please enlighten us.
I don't have any replays by any pros, nor against any pros. I'm just telling you a combination of what has worked, and what logically follows from analyzing the replays. Eliminate the Roaches if you want, they're unimportant, serving only as early-game survival and mid/late Hydra meatshield, since your Zerglings will be decoupled from the rest of the army.
What's important is the attitude, not the actual specifics. Approach it as a guerilla war, do whatever you have to in order to get map control, and never ever attack the Terran head-on unless he's moving (and even then, try to get the lings behind him to work the tanks). If you start thinking of it in terms of a specific build laid out for you like a roadmap, you'll lose. Builds can be countered, and Terran has better counters than us.
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not to burst anyone's bubble but the ghost mech against protoss thread had this build (ie 1 barracks into 1 factory into 1 starport) however that thread was prior to the roach change. I think as soon as T players saw that the number one thing that stopped them from using this type of build was now significantly weaker it was inevitable.
If anyone deserves credit, its avilo. IMO. Although I must say TLO has been executing this build very well and I greatly appreciate him sharing with Day9 so we could all see pro level execution of it.
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Right now the hardest part about Terran gameplay is figuring out unit composition. We have so much units that are specialized on something or need insane micro (Siege Tank = Focusfire gateway units or units far away so you don't shoot your own units).. etc
TLO is - right now - really good at unit composition. Thats less about strategy, its about feeling for a certain race and I'm pretty sure Terran is his best race.
I use the same opening as he does, used it before vs Terran (Marine + Hellion) because its just good to:
1) put a bit of pressure on the opponent
2) scout !
Hellions are actually also really good to scout Protoss as well.
From then it changes since I prefer a Banshee follow up or marauder/tank heavy play with raven as support. Anyways I think TLO is a really clever player with great unit composition. I'd like to hear JinrO's opinion on that.
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very good post, thank you
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 21 2010 01:43 BillyMole wrote:
After studying the build for the last couple of days, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to beat it is to abuse the immobility. To elaborate, most Zerg nowadays are using the "mass units and attack" mentality. Obviously, attacking headlong into a mech army is a great way to lose the game. Victory must come from, basically, guerilla warfare.
Surviving through the early stages isn't actually all that hard. You can FE with 2-4 Spine Crawlers and a couple queens, and easily hold off the initial marine/hellion push. Proper positioning of the crawlers and queens (depending on the map) will prevent any sort of hellion driveby. The impulse most Zerg have is to drone hard right after the FE goes up, which will get you killed against this build. Get the defense up, use the larvae, and gradually drone. A few Roaches (which many players have given up altogether) will also help a great deal.
Stage 2 is the inevitable banshees that come shortly after the marine/hellion push. You should already be ready for this with two queens at each hatchery. Proper micro will drive off or kill the banshees, since most T using this build will not build more than 2-4 of them. During this time, you should have about a dozen or so roaches, and should have the spire either going up or already done. The most important part here is to show him your roaches. It'll be an easy win if he decides to start massing marauders.
Stage 3, when the spire is done, get 6 mutalisks, and throw down the Hydra den. Do not get any more than those 6 mutalisks. Their sole purpose is to destroy any Vikings that may be harassing your overlords, gather some intel, and do some harass if you can pull it off without losing any. Use this slight pressure to regain map control, and throw down your second expansion. During this whole time you should be building up a mixed Ling/Roach/Hydra army (not too heavy on the roaches, 12-18 tops).
After this, it's dependent on what direction the opponent is going. The point of the Roaches and the Mutalisk harass (other than regaining map control), is to hopefully limit the number of Tanks that your opponent builds. If he spent his time building Thors, or better yet Marauders, then you're in a good position. If he's got 6 or more tanks, it's a problem. The most important part is map awareness. Under no circumstances should you be attacking headlong into the Terran base. Drops, Nydus, or Mutalisk harass are your weapons of choice here, but it's going to be a drawn-out game. Get more expansions up and starve him out. If he attacks out, hit him while the army is moving, and split your army. Roaches and Hydras from the "front", and have the lings go behind to hit the tanks. Most maps have avenues where you can execute this, with the exception of Kulas Ravine, if he's attacking through the center. If you can destroy the army while it moves, you win.
Otherwise, continue holding map control, don't let him take more expansions, and move toward either Brood Lords or a doom drop/nydus drop. Again, though, the theme is guerilla warfare, try to hit from multiple points at once. If you drop even a couple overlords worth of lings/roach/hydra into his base, he might panic and uproot his whole front defense to deal with it, giving you the opportunity to take out his expansion with the rest of your force.
Above all, never, ever engage the Terran on his terms. If you do that you lose. Wait him out, force him to come to you, or catch him while he moves. If he spends his time reacting to your pokes, you will win. If he gets greedy and tries to attack into your base (and you catch him while he's moving), you'll probably win. If you get bored and attack from the front, or slip up, you're dead.
Edit: Many people suggest Infestors to deal with the Thors. They work very poorly against this build of Terran. There is pretty much no position your infestors can be in where they can NP a Thor and be out of range of the tanks. Any terran paying attention will immediately pop the bug with two tank shots. Fungal Growth is likewise subpar against this build, unless he chooses to go heavy bioball. The damage won't be significant due to the small number of units hit by the growth, and the immobilize doesn't matter because the army is immobile anyway.
Great post! From a Terran's point of view this is the accurate description of mech's nightmare.
Messing around with muta and forcing lots of turrets, doomdrops and burrowed roaches from a flank are all scary and combined into one strategy very hard to beat without straight up switching to bio.
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On May 21 2010 06:55 Morvan wrote:
Great post! From a Terran's point of view this is the accurate description of mech's nightmare.
Messing around with muta and forcing lots of turrets, doomdrops and burrowed roaches from a flank are all scary and combined into one strategy very hard to beat without straight up switching to bio.
Well, the best outcome of the harassment would be getting the Terran to switch to bio. It's much easier to beat a bio army as Zerg than a mech army. Banelings and Fungal Growth both work wonders. I've found that if a Terran makes that switch, I probably have the game in the bag. If he doesn't, then hopefully I've at least limited the number of tanks he has.
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I don't see how Nydus/Overlord drop is a strong contender to counter this build, unless it's super-rushed to try and overcome the wall-in, the way a Baneling bust might try to do the same.
The Terran build doesn't rely on having an undersized army for a long period of time. With 3 production buildings off the start it has a solid army by early mid-game that can vie for map control if you don't mess up (like getting caught out of position, build the wrong units from each, etc.)
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On May 21 2010 07:19 TheMaster42 wrote:
I don't see how Nydus/Overlord drop is a strong contender to counter this build, unless it's super-rushed to try and overcome the wall-in, the way a Baneling bust might try to do the same.
The Terran build doesn't rely on having an undersized army for a long period of time. With 3 production buildings off the start it has a solid army by early mid-game that can vie for map control if you don't mess up (like getting caught out of position, build the wrong units from each, etc.)
Not much time but I'll answer this real quick. The fact that you don't have a large mass of marines and marauders means that you are most likely relying on siege tanks to fend off roaches and hydras. Siege tanks are not mobile at all - a good nydus / overlord drop that circumvents your tanks / wallin is the very definition of getting caught out of position. You can and will have control over a certain portion of the map with your siege line, but that is not the same thing as true map control, which will still be in the hands of the Zerg (as it is anytime you play mech).
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On May 21 2010 08:01 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 07:19 TheMaster42 wrote:
I don't see how Nydus/Overlord drop is a strong contender to counter this build, unless it's super-rushed to try and overcome the wall-in, the way a Baneling bust might try to do the same.
The Terran build doesn't rely on having an undersized army for a long period of time. With 3 production buildings off the start it has a solid army by early mid-game that can vie for map control if you don't mess up (like getting caught out of position, build the wrong units from each, etc.) Not much time but I'll answer this real quick. The fact that you don't have a large mass of marines and marauders means that you are most likely relying on siege tanks to fend off roaches and hydras. Siege tanks are not mobile at all - a good nydus / overlord drop that circumvents your tanks / wallin is the very definition of getting caught out of position. You can and will have control over a certain portion of the map with your siege line, but that is not the same thing as true map control, which will still be in the hands of the Zerg (as it is anytime you play mech).
Pretty much this. You can't beat the Terran army in a straight-up fight when he's already set up. Trying to do so is a quick way to lose, but unfortunately, that's how most players have been thinking. The drops and harassment allow you to draw him out of position to the point where you can engage him at a time and location of your choosing, rather than his.
Example. You load up three overlords with a total of 12 zerglings and six hydralisks, and drop it in the back of his base. This force is way too small to do any significant damage, it's sole purpose is to draw his defense out of position. Confronted with this situation, most Terran players will immediately move all or most of their base defense to counter the threat. This is your opportunity to hit his expansion. Snipe the CC before his defenses return, and then leave. Better yet, when he moves to counter your drop, load everything back into the overlords and try to get off the cliff. When his defenses run to his expansion to try to save it, drop them again.
Repeated, stinging distractions don't do significant damage, and they don't win you the game. But they fluster your opponent, and he's spending all his time responding to your annoying pokes. He's not expanding a second time, and he's definitely not thinking of doing an organized assault on your base. While all this is going on, you're taking a third, fourth, or fifth base, spreading creep everywhere on the map, and entrenching yourself so deep that even if he wipes out your battle force, it can be replaced immediately. Best case scenario, he gets flustered enough to go on tilt with an ill-prepared attack, and you can hit him while he's moving.
There are a thousand things to do, all at once, to pull this off, and few people have that kind of coordination (I know I don't). But the only alternative is trying to attack headlong into a Terran that is ready for you, and that will (and should) result in your immediate death. It's not unbalance, it's racial approach. Accept that the Terran army is stronger than yours when it is prepared, and work around it.
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On May 21 2010 06:20 red_b wrote:
not to burst anyone's bubble but the ghost mech against protoss thread had this build (ie 1 barracks into 1 factory into 1 starport) however that thread was prior to the roach change. I think as soon as T players saw that the number one thing that stopped them from using this type of build was now significantly weaker it was inevitable.
If anyone deserves credit, its avilo. IMO. Although I must say TLO has been executing this build very well and I greatly appreciate him sharing with Day9 so we could all see pro level execution of it.
qft
Also there are quite a few reps up on sc2win of korean players using a 1 fac 1 rax 1 port build from quite awhile ago (flash actually does a raven opening identical to avilo's). Showing the build on day9 though has definitely increased its popularity. TLO seems to use it really well too. Its too bad he lost to white-ra, would love to have seen it used against IdrA.
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If you go back to SC1 there was a 1 rax 1 fac 1 port opening into mech too...
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The only problem about circumventing the siege tank/mech army, is sure, you can do some damage, but he can usually defend or atleast scoot you away, move the tank line up and at best, it turns into a base trading war. Thor + tank tend to win a base trade vs ling roach hydra. Also a small 100-200 min investment in patrolling marines can completely shutdown any in-base nydusing. So you end up with overlord drops, which vikings can usually drop rather quickly.
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Im not sure TLO should be credited by this; I saw this play way back in april. (before the patch). Its a very strong build, but Ive seen it beat (still pre-patch. So its even stronger now.)
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EPT
