• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:37
CEST 13:37
KST 20:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates8GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th12Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? [BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ I made an ASL quiz
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 1
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 25414 users

[Spoilers] Some thoughts about a recent PL match

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
iNfeRnaL *
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Germany1908 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-18 20:07:01
May 18 2010 14:16 GMT
#1
If you have not seen CJ vs KT do NOT read on.
+ Show Spoiler +

To be more specific, I will concentrate on FlaSh vs Snow and what exactly was going on there, because I do not think most people understood the ingenuity behind this whole game.

Let me make one thing clear from the start - CJ's coaching team is probably one of the best teams when it comes to prepare their players for specific matches.
Hadn't Snow actually won the game, a lot of people would be left with a "why the fuck did the coaches send out Snow anyway?"

Here's the why: Snow prepared entirely for this matchup. He's a great PvT sniper too.
There was no doubt about WHO KT would send, should it get to Ace.
Snow was NOT playing any other matchups that day, means it was impossible for him to lose a matchup he was probably prepared for, which could have obviously harmed his mindset.

And to beat Flash, you NEED your mind set completely straight on this one target.

Now lets move on to the actual game.
Snow opens with a 2nd pyl before cy-core and gets 2 Zealots first.
Notice how Snow scouts completely in the wrong direction and finds Flash on the last possible turn and still manages to deny Flash's CC easilsy.

What does this tell you? Snow getting lucky with his BO?
Nope.
It tells you he KNEW what build Flash was going to use and that he practiced this over and over and over.
He KNEW his timings.

Remember the article where Kang Min shared some thoughts about how to beat FlaSh?
CJ's coaches listened very close to Kang Min's words as it seems to me.

Because this little tweak in the opening was already the start.
It was a little bit of mindgaming included there for sure, because obviously this sets him a little bit behind if Flash had NOT actually gone for CC -> fact.
But as written above, he KNEW Flash would do this on FS.

Then the 2nd part, taking the 6 o'clock expo FIRST - why?
Yes, yes, so Flash can not see it. BUT also the lack of an expansion at this certain timing led Flash to take clues in the exact opposite direction. (Again, notice how wonderfully everything worked out in Snow's plan here, SCV spots no natural but gets killed before entering Snow's actual mainbase.)

The fact that Flash did NOT see anything, no expo, no clues of tech, nothing that could make him believe there is an expansion made Flash conclude he will be cheesed. DT drop, Reavers, even possibly bulldog.
Flash played VERY safe. Super safe. It was the right decision usually.

But what you see sometimes is not what you get.
And that made this game so brilliant imo.

Because unlike what it must've seemed to Flash, Snow was playing macro, macro, macro.
Another setback, after already delaying Flash's expo for ages.
Flash got the ebay even before the 2nd fact and spammed turrets BEFORE even taking the natural.

Game proceeds into macro macro after some fake into turn back push from Flash, Snow again taking a seemingly weird expo with 9 o'clock - but if you think twice it already closes one harass path that Flash could have gone with his vultures, he only could take the big choke down @ 7 o clock main this point of time.
Obviously there was a lot of goons in between tho.
Another nice part about this expo is - the longer the game drags on the harder this expansion will become to defend.
So in fact if you mine it out as fast as possible, you just end up having one critical spot less to defend in the lategame, which Flash excel's at.

Then the game mostly revolved about Flash's 11 o'clock natural - and the fact that Snow "took" the main there - but not to mine there, simply to delay Flash.
He never made a probe there!
But he managed to get some DT's out and kept Flash busy, kept him wasting a lot of scans. THIS was also a very critical move.
Even better was the fact that he recalled the 11 o clock to clean up small chunks of Flashes force that he previously drew there with his DT's - again - perfect planning.
It was simply sweet how the shuttle flew in to reinforce the psidrop and get some nice (and unexpected!) storms off on Flash's (too little) reinforcements.

Then the "carrier switch".
This was beautiful.
Remember what Ra said?
It's the same idea, just executed a little different.
Snow never made carriers before he actually had decent upgrades for them (+2 attack, 3-1 upgrading) unlike stupidly rushing for them.

Notice how Flash IMMEDIATELY after finally having some scans again spots the carrier tech. Keep in mind, Flash saw 3 flashing Stargates, 2 Cores and he had NO IDEA how many Carriers Snow actually had, because he was busy wasting scans @ 11 o'clock battleground before.
This is why Flash massed a SHITLOAD of goliaths.
And this is exactly what Snow wanted him to do, having only 3 Carriers (+3 making - or arbiters, cannot be said for sure), rest ground force only.
Exactly as Ra said!
Use carriers to simply weaken the ground forces Flash pull out.
Flash was desperate, he was behind economically and was aware of the Carriers.
Flash's usual reaction to this counter multiple spots at the same time, and that's exactly what Flash did - or lets say tried to do. (Twice.)
But right when he did, Snow already had amassed 4 groups of ground force, simply tearing apart Flash's tank/goliath only force.

Don't you think it's shocking how much knowledge Kang Min still seems to have?
Also VERY great work to CJ's coaching staff to put some words of wisdom to use creating such a nice big picture for Snow to execute.
Obviously great work by Snow to be able to show exactly what they had prepared for Flash.

On a sidenote: Please do not get this as anything else then what it is - a closer look at a game where the best player in this world got beaten in a perfectly prepared straight up game. I'm aware that this is NOT the start of a slump or anything.

I really have to admit that seeing Flash lose does even feel more intense than when Savior did, just because it happens soooo rarely.
saltywet
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Hong Kong1316 Posts
May 18 2010 14:29 GMT
#2
+ Show Spoiler +
i agree with all said, but the nexus was delayed a bit by the zealots, and had flash gotten a bunker down earlier im wondering if snow would still have an economic advantage?
Katsuge
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore7730 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-18 14:31:41
May 18 2010 14:31 GMT
#3
+ Show Spoiler +
^interesting read...

but yea, it is pretty evident that snow came to the ace match realllly prepared...

which simply hypes up the effort flash finals..

cant wait to see effort pull an upset here ^^
김태연 | 정은지 | 아이유 |  한효주 | 이민정 <3 -|||- 소녀시대 에이핑크 사랑해!
dcberkeley
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada844 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-18 14:34:44
May 18 2010 14:33 GMT
#4
Great read

It's not that surprising that Nal_rA is really smart in this aspect since he does commentate.
Moktira is da bomb
lowbright
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
308 Posts
May 18 2010 14:34 GMT
#5
game 1 is worth talking about as well
they really pulled out all the stops for the mind games
TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #49
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-18 14:48:57
May 18 2010 14:46 GMT
#6
I completely agree with your analysis. Snow displayed incredible preparation. However I do think you are praising nal_ra a bit too much in this case. Theoretically its not rocket science to design a game plan to take a certain player down. I believe defeating Flash is far from impossible, its just that on top of his game, he is able to predict/adapt so damn well. Indeed the game turned out in Snow's best case scenario, but what I found more astonishing was the quality of his execution.

I do not underestemate nal_ra's deep understaning for the game nor the amazing preparation of Snow. What amazed me were Snow's pvt skills and mechanics, I think many protoss players tried to come up with a decent game plan against Flash recently, but failed to materialize their preparation ( I'm looking at you, Kal)
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
zealing
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada806 Posts
May 18 2010 14:49 GMT
#7
+ Show Spoiler +
naaa... Snow's just bonjwa

but cool write up, intresting read
Think you got lag? It took Jesus 3 days to respawn.
sung_moon
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10110 Posts
May 18 2010 15:04 GMT
#8
On May 18 2010 23:46 disciple wrote:
I completely agree with your analysis. Snow displayed incredible preparation. However I do think you are praising nal_ra a bit too much in this case. Theoretically its not rocket science to design a game plan to take a certain player down. I believe defeating Flash is far from impossible, its just that on top of his game, he is able to predict/adapt so damn well. Indeed the game turned out in Snow's best case scenario, but what I found more astonishing was the quality of his execution.

I do not underestemate nal_ra's deep understaning for the game nor the amazing preparation of Snow. What amazed me were Snow's pvt skills and mechanics, I think many protoss players tried to come up with a decent game plan against Flash recently, but failed to materialize their preparation ( I'm looking at you, Kal)


i agree to a certain extent tot his. gonna have to rewatch it when it comes out in vods.

happy birthday btw
Forever Young
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
May 18 2010 15:06 GMT
#9
Flash wasn't on his game that series. Even the game vs effort was bad
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
tarpman
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada718 Posts
May 18 2010 15:18 GMT
#10
+ Show Spoiler +
Set 5 was an amazing game. I was watching it live and just spent the whole thing being bowled over by how well prepared Snow was. I don't have the best opinion of Snow as a player, but I can't deny that he took an incredibly prepared build and game plan and executed them perfectly.
Saving the world, one kilobyte at a time.
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-18 15:23:01
May 18 2010 15:21 GMT
#11
It says a lot about Flash when you need a strategy like this to beat him. Ultimately I feel this will make Flash take notice of Snow's PvT. I hope they even practice together.

EDIT: Also, I think further spoiler tags are probably not needed. It does say [Spoilers] in the title after all.
Gustav_Wind
Profile Joined July 2008
United States646 Posts
May 18 2010 15:30 GMT
#12
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 19 2010 00:18 tarpman wrote:
Set 5 was an amazing game. I was watching it live and just spent the whole thing being bowled over by how well prepared Snow was. I don't have the best opinion of Snow as a player, but I can't deny that he took an incredibly prepared build and game plan and executed them perfectly.


the signs so far seem to indicate that Snow is an excellent PvT player. In his recent PvTs he's taken down the likes of Leta, Really, Sea, Light, and now Flash. (granted, Leta and Light aren't so good at TvP, but besides Flash and Really there aren't any terrans who are.)


metaphoR
Profile Joined May 2010
United States199 Posts
May 18 2010 15:40 GMT
#13
where is the article from kangmin?
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
May 18 2010 15:42 GMT
#14
On May 19 2010 00:40 metaphoR wrote:
where is the article from kangmin?


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125357
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Wings
Profile Joined January 2010
United States999 Posts
May 18 2010 15:45 GMT
#15
I always believed Nal_rA had some excellent insight on how to play starcraft. In old boy, he showed some absolutely brilliant tricks like his corsair + dt-ramp-block + 4 zealot expo-hatchery snipe... but obviously he's lacking in the ability of putting them into action. I really hope he gets back into shape soon.

As for the Flash v Snow game... it had to happen sometime. Smart game by Snow, Flash is actually most threatened by Toss IMO because you can't tell if they're going to all-in 1-base cheese, for which you need tech and careful turtling, or 12nex, for which you need to punish the toss. I actually missed the very start of the game, if Snow did deny the scout... IMO maybe Flash should have scouted faster, before the first zealot popped. Or did he? Sorry I don't know...

Lastly, though I was rooting for Flash, its good that Snow didn't go all-in carrier transition. Lately so many protosses have been being raped by complete transitions... they have to realize that such transitions give Flash a huge timing chance to attack.
The probability of Kim Carrier getting all those predictions wrong is similar to the probability Flash loses a TvT. Kim Carrier MUST BE a genius. His only big mistake... STORK.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42419 Posts
May 18 2010 15:52 GMT
#16
I agree on every point. I've been saying it in my OSL writeups and talking about it with Wax a lot, the only way to beat Flash lategame is to macro, macro, macro midgame use arbiters in the early late game and then make the carrier switch for the mid lategame. Flash is too good vs arbiters to lose and if you try it you'll do a Kal and suicide everything and Flash can instantly push out and destroy your economy.
Snow's early game was a beautiful counterbuild designed to exploit Flash's rax FE perfectly, forcing Flash to expand after siege mode, a second fact and a turret. The timing was perfect, if that bunker finishes then the scvs maynard and can repair and the nat holds. But the bunker doesn't hold and without it the marines are worthless. The fake cheese with hidden expansion at 6 was a great mindfuck.
It was the lategame that he did differently from everyone else though. Pure tried it in game 3 vs Flash but he didn't have the economy to support his carriers properly. We've seen Kal and Movie before him prove that Flash can handle arbiters in a huge disadvantage with his camp and wait style and yet they don't seem to learn. Snow is the first guy to execute what we've all been thinking.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
AureS
Profile Joined June 2007
France108 Posts
May 18 2010 15:52 GMT
#17
WHERE CAN we see the game?
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
May 18 2010 15:57 GMT
#18
This is the reason why it's so good to have atleast 2 players capable of playing in the Ace match...
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42419 Posts
May 18 2010 15:58 GMT
#19
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
dtnmang
Profile Joined April 2010
Vietnam752 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-18 16:04:43
May 18 2010 16:03 GMT
#20
Damn nal_ra is bm, using the old boy TV show as a guise to exploit Flash's play to Protoss in a legal way.
Unlike Luxury who has probably sold Flash's practice videos and replays, which was illegal.
KT Roflster - the lulziest team of Proleague.
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
AllThingsProtoss
11:00
Team League - Grand Finals
Gemini_1933
Liquipedia
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #93
ByuN vs NicoractLIVE!
herO vs TBD
CranKy Ducklings200
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .259
BRAT_OK 90
ProTech78
EnDerr 51
MindelVK 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 13507
Calm 4822
Horang2 4496
Shuttle 2758
Rain 2366
Hyuk 991
Bisu 654
Jaedong 601
firebathero 551
Zeus 424
[ Show more ]
EffOrt 396
actioN 319
Mini 244
Last 227
Snow 211
ggaemo 185
Hyun 156
[sc1f]eonzerg 93
Dewaltoss 81
TY 72
Pusan 71
Killer 58
JYJ56
Mind 53
Aegong 50
sSak 46
sorry 46
Rush 36
NaDa 28
Sacsri 26
Sea.KH 25
Sharp 24
Icarus 18
Mong 15
Free 14
Barracks 10
JulyZerg 7
ivOry 5
Dota 2
XcaliburYe632
XaKoH 359
Fuzer 306
Counter-Strike
x6flipin599
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor291
Other Games
singsing1833
B2W.Neo486
DeMusliM417
mouzStarbuck216
crisheroes149
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream9954
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 24
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 40
• Adnapsc2 20
• MJG 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos519
• Stunt498
Upcoming Events
Fire Grow Cup
3h 23m
BSL: ProLeague
6h 23m
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
12h 23m
Replay Cast
1d 12h
Replay Cast
1d 22h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 23h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 23h
GSL Code S
2 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Replay Cast
3 days
GSL Code S
3 days
herO vs TBD
Classic vs TBD
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Cheesadelphia
6 days
Cheesadelphia
6 days
GSL Code S
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.