I'm surprised there isn't a thread about this, I did some searches and found nothing. I want to share some of my views on this topic as well as see some of your opinions.
To start, I am 100% for the construction of this Mosque. I do not understand how a country who was built on religious freedoms can so blatantly disregard the most important amendment of our Constitution. What happens if we bar this mosque from being constructed....what's going to stop people from banning mosque's elsewhere? Our excuse of "It's too close to Ground Zero, and it's disrespectful to the victims." is ridiculous in my opinion. So all Muslims are terrorists? It's a mosque and a community center for god sakes, not a terrorist training ground. If this mosque is banned, it will show the world how hypocritical Americans are, and the repercussions of this will be far greater than just a few upset Muslims who can't worship in that area. It will be held up as an example of how America is a place of religious and racial intolerance and will negatively impact every future foreign relationships from here on.
An interesting quote I found by Dick Cavett, an old television talk show host.
A woman tells the news guy on the street, “I have absolutely no prejudice against the Muslim people. My cousin is married to one. I just don’t see why they have to be here.” A man complains that his opposition to the mosque is “painting me like I hate the whole Arab world.” (Perhaps he dislikes them all as individuals?) I remain amazed and really, sincerely, want to understand this. What can it be that is faulty in so many people’s thought processes, their ethics, their education, their experience of life, their understanding of their country, their what-have-you that blinds them to the fact that you can’t simultaneously maintain that you have nothing against members of any religion but are willing to penalize members of this one? Can you help me with this?
So what are your thoughts TL, I'm interested in seeing your opinions.
There are already a bunch of other churches of various faiths the same distance away, and another mosque one block further, so it seems like a 100% ginned-up non-controversy. Nobody cared about it until Pam Geller and Fox News told them to care. Besides, it's not like the fucking Taj Mahal in downtown New York, it's just some little community center thing.
If you want to complain about things desecrating Ground Zero, complain about the tourist traps, which are actually at the site, not two blocks away, and which are a fucking disgrace. I visited NYC in 2006 and I found it sort of absurdly hilarious seeing all these street vendors hawking maudlin crap.
It's not at Ground Zero, this whole controversy is ridiculous. The way New York City is, there's tons of stuff within a small block radius of any given point that would never even seem associated with each other and shouldn't be considered so. This is the same deal.
So, the constitution guarantees freedom of religion. It guarantees private property rights. Argument closed. Build it.
As far as the "arguments" against it, I see no reasoning besides associating all muslims with Al Qaeda radicals. And that's ridiculous and nothing but bigotry.
On August 23 2010 23:22 Ixas wrote: It serves as a painful reminder of the past for those who are affected, its not about discrimination but more of respect for the victims.
How can this not be about discrimination. A memorial to the victims is a painful reminder for those affected too, but no one would protest a memorial would they?
It was only yesterday I found out it was two blocks away whereas it was being sold by the media (not just Fox amazingly) as though it was slap bang on ground zero. If it was literally on ground zero then I could see why people might be a bit perturbed, though i still wouldn't agree with them. But with its actual site, it's an absurd non-issue.
It's a shame that something that was originally supposed to commemorate the victims of a tragedy is now becoming a sign of American ignorance, intolerance, and idiocy.
I blame the media. You can't erase ignorance, but you can keep yourself from stirring it up and letting it run rampant.
There's really still that many people who honestly believe 9/11 was a bunch of radical muslims in an airliner? Y'all got bigger problems than some people building a Mosque in downtown NYC.
On August 23 2010 23:22 Ixas wrote: It serves as a painful reminder of the past for those who are affected, its not about discrimination but more of respect for the victims.
How can this not be about discrimination. A memorial to the victims is a painful reminder for those affected too, but no one would protest a memorial would they?
It is inevitable that a mosque will bring back memories of, perhaps, hatred as it is perceived, by some and almost definitely by the victims, to be the cause of the disaster. I'm not saying Islam, or any other religions, cause bloodshed. They simply pave the path to it, the rest is up to the mind of the perpetrator.
A memorial have a higher tendency to bring back fond memories of the deceased. A mosque, on the other end, would probably fuel hate.
So, as a Pat Condell fan, I was initially against this project. Muslim's have a long history of constructing mosques at 'places of victory.' The name "Cordoba House" (recently changed to "Park51") really doesn't help their point in anyway.
After looking at the history of the project leader: Imam Rauf, he has been a very vocal moderate Muslim his entire life. Dating back to speaking at a Daniel Pearl memorial in which he said:
If to be a Jew means to say with all one's heart, mind and soul Shma` Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai Ahad; hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One, not only today I am a Jew, I have always been one, Mr. Pearl.
Hearing him say something like this, he is not someone we want to marginalize (like the right is currently doing). After seeing this I immediately changed my point of view. Islamification is something American's should definitely be conscious of, but this isn't one of the times to act.
- This mosque is part of a more conservatism branch of islam (sufism), polar opposite to the radical extremists - The leader of the mosque was a strategy advisor for the Bush administration, which supports him and his mosque
You wanna teach Iraq about democracy and equal rights, but you don't respect it in your own country? The hypocrisy is baffling. And yeah, Saudi Arabia doesn't have any churches. Congrats on being just as good as them.
On August 23 2010 23:22 Ixas wrote: It serves as a painful reminder of the past for those who are affected, its not about discrimination but more of respect for the victims.
How can this not be about discrimination. A memorial to the victims is a painful reminder for those affected too, but no one would protest a memorial would they?
It is inevitable that a mosque will bring back memories of, perhaps, hatred as it is perceived, by some and almost definitely by the victims, to be the cause of the disaster. I'm not saying Islam, or any other religions, cause bloodshed. They simply pave the path to it, the rest is up to the mind of the perpetrator.
A memorial have a higher tendency to bring back fond memories of the deceased. A mosque, on the other end, would probably fuel hate.
The way to eliminate fucked-up hateful bigotry is not to surrender to it; it's to call it what it is and fight until it dies. If someone's hate is personally fueled by a mosque two blocks from Ground Zero, they aren't much better than a KKK member. If they got that way because they lost friends or relatives in 9/11, my sympathies go out to them, but NYC should pay for their therapy instead of accommodating their twisted shit by punishing others.
On August 23 2010 23:25 N.geNuity wrote: So, the constitution guarantees freedom of religion. It guarantees private property rights. Argument closed. Build it.
As far as the "arguments" against it, I see no reasoning besides associating all muslims with Al Qaeda radicals. And that's ridiculous and nothing but bigotry.
+ 1,
Absolutely racist to even link the two events. Radical Islam is so fractured from the rest of the religion, coming from a part of London surrounded by Mosques and full of Muslims I can honestly tell you that just like the Sikhs and Hindus here, they're the nicest people in the world.
Don't let the actions of a few spoil your view on an entire religion, in the same vein one could link the actions of many of Christians of that with the Christian church, but we don't.
I live here, and to deny the Mosque is pretty much equivalent to blaming 9/11 on the Muslim faith and not on the extremist group itself. Anyone who says "It brings up painful memories" might be missing the point that anyone who is suddenly hurt by the sight of a mosque is flat out ignorant. Maybe I should go protest some churches because "Christianity = Radical Protestantism = KKK".
On August 23 2010 23:37 dANiELcanuck wrote: There's really still that many people who honestly believe 9/11 was a bunch of radical muslims in an airliner? Y'all got bigger problems than some people building a Mosque in downtown NYC.
yeah totally man, these fools still believe we landed on the moon. They still believe the holocaust actually happened. Fuck these clueless suckers man, they don't know about the jews running the world or about the illuminati. You should be blessed you worked it all out man.
On August 23 2010 23:22 Ixas wrote: It serves as a painful reminder of the past for those who are affected, its not about discrimination but more of respect for the victims.
Actually, plenty of the victim's relatives has already publicly expressed support to the mosque. And some even said it was an honor to the victims to have the mosque built there:
"We support the building of the Islamic community center in lower Manhattan and want to explain why we feel that it would honor our son and other victims." - Parents of a victim for lohud.com
Honestly I think this is total racist bullshit. I know people that died in the towers, I was close enough to watch the smoke plumes rising from my front yard. My Grandfather was one of the iron workers that built the tower, and my uncle was part of the construction crew to remove the wreckage. I may not be a New Yorker, but I am still pretty personally involved with this.
People are claiming they don't want it "out of respect for the the victims." which is of course an utter lie, they don't want it because they are racist fucks that are afraid of brown people. Know what would be a lot more respectful of the victims, going to a mosque, getting to know some Muslims and convince them that we aren't the great satan and try to end the animosity between Islam and the west.
EPT
