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On March 17 2010 09:37 Lurgee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 09:13 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 08:29 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On March 17 2010 08:22 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 03:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 02:24 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote:
You won't win a tourney with cheese. There are countless examples proving you wrong. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Depending on how you look at this, it is either subjective or circular logic - Take your pick.
So this boils down to "play with your best chance to win"? I agree. There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn. I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the first paragraph, but you said to reply to your post, so I'll try to. Okay - so you can be a cheesy player against Flash or Bisu, yes, that is your best chance. I'm saying you shouldn't cheese on the ladder so that you can actually get better at the game in general. It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point and thinks i'm saying you should never cheese. This is not true. But cheesing should not be your main play or strategy. It should be very minimum, especially on the ladder. Cheesing is saved for let's say 1 game of a BO3. You can practice it on the ladder, but you must predominantly play standard games if you want to go better. You say you don't have hours to play every day and you want to have fun. If you read the OP i said this post doesn't apply to you. This post only applies to people who want to get better by playing the ladder. Go ahead and cheese all day, but you'll never get better that way. You can abuse the ladder, but that's about it. And yes, some cheeses do have transitions into standard play, but the fact is it started with cheese, and therefore "messes up" any real standard aspects of that particular game - for both players. You can cheese once and win but to win consistently you need to be a solid player who plays solid games consistently. You wanna know how you get better? you cheese mercilessly, repetitively, and vs the same few people (who will also cheese you) You will be continuously forced to change ur strategy, and play ridiculous, low econ games that hinge on micro, decision making, scouting, and game sense. After a while, you will learn timing windows, and be able to feel out how the game works. Both sides will then try to maximize their econ while still not dying to the flurry of cheeses. eventually, you will arrive upon the "standard" BO that pros use. It's not the product, but the process that makes you a better player. or you can skip all the bullshit and practice what matters. How are you qualified to say what does and doesn't matter if you can't even break D+. http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/JTPROG.html
close thread.
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On March 17 2010 09:39 JTPROG wrote:
Cheesing is not needed, and I guess would be considered the "bullshit". Once you are very good at the game you are also very good at cheesing. It's just a matter of executing a simple strategy with your already stellar macro micro and management skills. Cheesing won't make you better. You can practice everything without it. It's a good tool later, but not good for getting better.
Well even your quote-buddy Idra seems to think cheese requires some set of skills and some sort of mindset that isn't gained with the stellar macro micro management skills. Witness his interview before being kicked out of the TSL by NonY, where he claims (wrongly in NonY's case, obviously) that both he and NonY are well out of their comfort zone with cheesy play, and that he considered Jian Fei or White-Ra to be more of a threat in that regard, and that Mondragon was better at coping with cheese than Kolll.
Fighting your way out of unusual game positions warrants some sort of game-sense that you generally get from experience of having been in vaguely similar situations before - that means cheesing or being cheesed or both. Dealing with unusual strategies is a skill, and that skill needs to be practiced somehow too. You don't get it for free in a cornflakes packet when your APM hits 250.
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also, oddly enough, its largely bad players (the kind who are capable of winning because of these cheesy strategies) who defend it as some kind of strategical genius. for instance, someone who would ling allin a famous player and then post the replay of it while bragging about how they masterminded the strategical flow of the game.
This reminds me of my friend sending me a replay of him beating elky with a 5 pool with 2 and 10 oclock positions on proving grounds. He was so pumped about it as if it somehow meant he was better.
I usually don't cheese, but i almost always pylon scout to avoid it just because I can't use the ramp to defend nearly as well in sc2.
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On March 17 2010 09:13 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 08:29 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On March 17 2010 08:22 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 03:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 02:24 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote:
You won't win a tourney with cheese. There are countless examples proving you wrong. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Depending on how you look at this, it is either subjective or circular logic - Take your pick.
So this boils down to "play with your best chance to win"? I agree. There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn. I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the first paragraph, but you said to reply to your post, so I'll try to. Okay - so you can be a cheesy player against Flash or Bisu, yes, that is your best chance. I'm saying you shouldn't cheese on the ladder so that you can actually get better at the game in general. It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point and thinks i'm saying you should never cheese. This is not true. But cheesing should not be your main play or strategy. It should be very minimum, especially on the ladder. Cheesing is saved for let's say 1 game of a BO3. You can practice it on the ladder, but you must predominantly play standard games if you want to go better. You say you don't have hours to play every day and you want to have fun. If you read the OP i said this post doesn't apply to you. This post only applies to people who want to get better by playing the ladder. Go ahead and cheese all day, but you'll never get better that way. You can abuse the ladder, but that's about it. And yes, some cheeses do have transitions into standard play, but the fact is it started with cheese, and therefore "messes up" any real standard aspects of that particular game - for both players. You can cheese once and win but to win consistently you need to be a solid player who plays solid games consistently. You wanna know how you get better? you cheese mercilessly, repetitively, and vs the same few people (who will also cheese you) You will be continuously forced to change ur strategy, and play ridiculous, low econ games that hinge on micro, decision making, scouting, and game sense. After a while, you will learn timing windows, and be able to feel out how the game works. Both sides will then try to maximize their econ while still not dying to the flurry of cheeses. eventually, you will arrive upon the "standard" BO that pros use. It's not the product, but the process that makes you a better player. or you can skip all the bullshit and practice what matters.
And then you have no idea of all the timings and such that made the original player any good in the first place.
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On March 17 2010 03:34 Floophead_III wrote:
These things are entirely outside your control and you're basically flipping a coin for the game. It's legitimately bad play and it proves nothing at all about skill levels. People will continue to do it because they legitimately suck at the game and can't win without it, but at the end of the day they've accomplished nothing.
They've accomplished a win.
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"Standard Play" is all crap. All they do is sit back and macro. It proves nothing about skill levels, and people will keep doing it because they suck at "Cheesing" and can only compete with "Standard Play." At the end of the day, they lose anyway and complain about how stupid cheese is.
o u c wut i did thar?
Nobody will ever prove that "Cheese" is worse than "Standard Play," or vice-versa, because it's purely subjective.
They both teach you separate skills; they are separate entities in the broad category of "Strategies."
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I'd just like to throw this analogy out there for those of you who say "whoever wins is the better player".
That's like saying in a foot race when a person used a legal shortcut to beat everyone else, he was the better runner because he won. Makes sense?
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On March 17 2010 09:13 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 08:29 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On March 17 2010 08:22 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 03:29 ShaperofDreams wrote:On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 02:24 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote:
You won't win a tourney with cheese. There are countless examples proving you wrong. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Depending on how you look at this, it is either subjective or circular logic - Take your pick.
So this boils down to "play with your best chance to win"? I agree. There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn. I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the first paragraph, but you said to reply to your post, so I'll try to. Okay - so you can be a cheesy player against Flash or Bisu, yes, that is your best chance. I'm saying you shouldn't cheese on the ladder so that you can actually get better at the game in general. It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point and thinks i'm saying you should never cheese. This is not true. But cheesing should not be your main play or strategy. It should be very minimum, especially on the ladder. Cheesing is saved for let's say 1 game of a BO3. You can practice it on the ladder, but you must predominantly play standard games if you want to go better. You say you don't have hours to play every day and you want to have fun. If you read the OP i said this post doesn't apply to you. This post only applies to people who want to get better by playing the ladder. Go ahead and cheese all day, but you'll never get better that way. You can abuse the ladder, but that's about it. And yes, some cheeses do have transitions into standard play, but the fact is it started with cheese, and therefore "messes up" any real standard aspects of that particular game - for both players. You can cheese once and win but to win consistently you need to be a solid player who plays solid games consistently. You wanna know how you get better? you cheese mercilessly, repetitively, and vs the same few people (who will also cheese you) You will be continuously forced to change ur strategy, and play ridiculous, low econ games that hinge on micro, decision making, scouting, and game sense. After a while, you will learn timing windows, and be able to feel out how the game works. Both sides will then try to maximize their econ while still not dying to the flurry of cheeses. eventually, you will arrive upon the "standard" BO that pros use. It's not the product, but the process that makes you a better player. or you can skip all the bullshit and practice what matters.
That's true except oh wait you can't.
There is a reason that the game starts with everyone rushing everything and fucking around and the meta game slowly changes into safer more marginal play, you can't just skip it. In fact I argue that it's better to learn the cheeses first because it gives you the cheesers perspective, which makes you fantastic against cheese later. Also it gets it out of the way and gives you several builds you can use so your not completely predictable.
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JTPROG, cheese strategies are not auto-win, super-easy situations. They're used to keep the game interesting and to keep your opponents from nailing you as "That guy who uses Standard Build Order X every single game." Have you ever watched Boxer play a game? Have you EVER correctly guessed what strategy he was going to pull out of his hat, before he did it? You often need to execute your micro and timing perfectly to pull off a great cheese strategy, and you always end up learning something.
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Let's put it this way JTPROG because your understanding seems superficial, there are good cheesers and there are bad cheesers. The difference? Their micro and understanding. Good players who cheese aren't doing it for shits and giggles, but either to mindfuck the opponent for the match (see Boxer vs. Yellow), and aren't relying entirely on "surprise" to win the game. If you can't understand that then there's no point.
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On March 17 2010 12:12 JTPROG wrote:
I'd just like to throw this analogy out there for those of you who say "whoever wins is the better player".
That's like saying in a foot race when a person used a legal shortcut to beat everyone else, he was the better runner because he won. Makes sense?
Whoever wins is not the better player. Whoever wins played better.
HUGE difference.
Same with a foot race; whoever won played better. If someone "played it standard" and ran the normal track, they should be punished for playing too standard by those who will take the opportunity to crush them.
Who said the better player should win every time? I say, the one who plays better should win every time. A Copper League newbie at rank D- in ICCup may not be a great player, but if they beat Boxer, they played better. Likewise, let's say Boxer wins the next match; he played better.
Person who players better wins every game. Cheese is just one of those "plays."
Think football. If you do the same play every game, someone is going to surprise you eventually. If it gets to the point where EVERYBODY is doing it against you; well? Isn't that giant sign that says you should adjust?
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On March 17 2010 00:06 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I'm glad you took time to argue your points. The topic title could have been from some frustrated player posting 3 lines in anger after being 'cheesed'. So thanks for that.
I get the feeling that it's a frustrated player posting a wall of text in anger after being cheesed.
OP's hypothetical question of two players doing 10/90 and 50/50 cheese play on ladder playing against each other in a BO5... is pretty much the worst hypothetical question I've ever seen. Are the two players being forced to play standard? If the cheeser uses his practiced cheese against the 10/90, what says he won't win the BO5? Mind games are beautiful - and of course, whoever wins the BO5 is the better player.
Also,
- if a cheese is unscoutable (in time), then why wouldn't the same cheese work against the same player twice in a row?
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JTPROG also do you realize that in the "ok you should cheese maybe once in a BO3 series" comment means that you would be cheesing half the games you win in BO3?
even in a BO5 one game is 30% of your wins.
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On March 17 2010 12:12 JTPROG wrote:
I'd just like to throw this analogy out there for those of you who say "whoever wins is the better player".
That's like saying in a foot race when a person used a legal shortcut to beat everyone else, he was the better runner because he won. Makes sense?
Wait, you're saying I should get a medal for turning up to the olympics and running the wrong way? "Cheese" is part of the course. Prepare accordingly.
Where you're 100% correct is if you're talking about strats the depend on your opponent having never seen them before. That play won't work for long, and isn't worth practicing, because it wont have any place in a mature metagame.
Let me turn it around on you. If you know your opponent plays a better standard game than you, that you will lose 100% of the time with a "standard game", should you cheese? Should you practice cheese? If you know that your opponent hates cheese and loses to a specific cheese 100% of the time, should you cheese?
Finally, let's say that this is one person - they can beat you in a "standard" game 100% of the time, but you can beat them with "cheese" 100% of the time. Who would you consider the better player?
+ Show Spoiler +If this is true, the game is probably degenerate and not worth playing, but the cheeser is definitely the better player.
With cheese that still works when the opponent knows you might do it, the question is not "should you cheese", but "what is the optimal rate of cheese to maximize your win rate". The answer to that will depend on your skills, but if you can't cheese well, your win rate will be lower - you will be a less good player.
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On March 17 2010 03:57 fyyer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 03:49 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Really the only problem with 'cheese' is that it's the most ambiguous vague term that people like to throw around anytime they disagree with a strategy.
"OH NO HE MADE CANONS BEHIND MY MINERALS WHEN I WAS FAST EXPANDING LIKE A GREEDY BITCH. YOU FAGGOT CHEATER" People just get caught up in the korean macro standard and in the process of wanting to become the best, think they should be emulating the best down to every last macro detail. I remember when Ret didn't want to re some dude on ICCUP because his build was "weird". mTw-Tak3r from War3 is a good example of a good player who cheesed whenever he possibly could. The type of player that makes the game interesting again.
That guy has some serious love for towers/cannons
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So the TL;DR version is essentially cheesing doesn't make you better even though its fun. You really needed a thread to state something thats as obvious as this?
To all the people arguing otherwise: you're wrong sorry. What does cheesing really make you better at? Micro? Yes. Multitask? Yes. but I think everyone can agree macro is the much much much more important aspect of becoming a good player when it comes to starcraft. This is the post Oov era after a;;  Besides, all the standard FE builds have evolved to counter all cheeses provided you scout well.
Not to put cheesing down or anything, I absolutely love the site of a well executed cheese when I'm the one dishing the pain
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Wow. I'm getting the feeling that nobody even read the OP. Please stay on topic. Random discussion that even I may take part in within the thread does not necessarily relate 100% to my point in the OP.
I'll state the point once again.
If you want to become a better player, do not cheese. Cheese usually results in short, skill-less games where the game is over before any macro or micro is even needed.
I'm not saying not to cheese.
I'm not saying you shouldn't cheese.
I'm not saying cheese is completely skill-less, but it IS definitely not as intensive as a standard game.
In short, to get better, cheese sparingly and play standard heavily. It will increase your skills.
This post was made for people to get BETTER while practicing the LADDER. Read the TITLE.
And that is by working out all of your skills, which is best demonstrated in a standard game.
I hope this thread is now back on-topic.
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On March 17 2010 12:47 SubtleArt wrote:
So the TL;DR version is essentially cheesing doesn't make you better even though its fun. You really needed a thread to state something thats as obvious as this?
To all the people arguing otherwise: you're wrong sorry. What does cheesing really make you better at? Micro? Yes. Multitask? Yes. but I think everyone can agree macro is the much much much more important aspect of becoming a good SC player when it comes to starcraft. Besides, all the standard FE builds have evolved to counter all cheeses provided you scout well.
Not to put cheesing down or anything, I absolutely love the site of a well executed cheese when I'm the one dishing the pain
wow someone else gets it.
You, sir, are a genius amongst these people.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On March 17 2010 12:35 MeditationError wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 12:12 JTPROG wrote:
I'd just like to throw this analogy out there for those of you who say "whoever wins is the better player".
That's like saying in a foot race when a person used a legal shortcut to beat everyone else, he was the better runner because he won. Makes sense? Wait, you're saying I should get a medal for turning up to the olympics and running the wrong way? "Cheese" is part of the course. Prepare accordingly. Where you're 100% correct is if you're talking about strats the depend on your opponent having never seen them before. That play won't work for long, and isn't worth practicing, because it wont have any place in a mature metagame. Let me turn it around on you. If you know your opponent plays a better standard game than you, that you will lose 100% of the time with a "standard game", should you cheese? Should you practice cheese? If you know that your opponent hates cheese and loses to a specific cheese 100% of the time, should you cheese? Finally, let's say that this is one person - they can beat you in a "standard" game 100% of the time, but you can beat them with "cheese" 100% of the time. Who would you consider the better player? + Show Spoiler +If this is true, the game is probably degenerate and not worth playing, but the cheeser is definitely the better player. With cheese that still works when the opponent knows you might do it, the question is not "should you cheese", but "what is the optimal rate of cheese to maximize your win rate". The answer to that will depend on your skills, but if you can't cheese well, your win rate will be lower - you will be a less good player.
Yes it makes sense to cheese against an opponent who will beat you in straight up fight. It's better to have a slim chance of victory than no chance at all.
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EPT
