EPTTL Chess Match 4 - Page 88
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 06 2011 15:01 mastergriggy wrote: + Show Spoiler +Choosing to continue my vote for Nxe4 (with new analysis) + Show Spoiler + Alright I looked at lines concerning the en passant and it looks really crappy for white. I'm starting to suspect that Bxc6 was a bad move and I regret voting for it  but that's in the pass.For the majority of the day I've looked at moves playing 16. b4 instead of 17. b4 or 16. 0-0. I think it is superior. I looked back over the last 5 pages, and didn't see any analysis. Here is the line: 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 and then: ... Line 3: 16...a5 17. bxa5 Ke6 18. Ra2 (to bring it to b2 or c2) c5 19. dxc5 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sCzkx.gif) then 19...Kxe5 20. c6 Kd5 (I prefer because no annoying checks) 21. Rc2 Bc5 22. Bb2 Kxc6 23. Bd4 wins the Bishop or queens. 19...Bxc5 20. Rc2 Bd4 21. f4 (lol, reverse en passant) looks strong for white. That's everything I got. I'm pretty sure b4 has been discussed at least in general, although it's hard to pick out specific posts on the subject, there has been so much analysis this turn. The general theme, I believe was that ...a5 followed by ...Ba6 were what causes problems in most lines where we play b4. We can barely move our pieces after this. 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 17...Ba6 At this point, your line has already diverged, so I don't know what you want to try here. I'll go with your stated plan of 18. Ra2 ("to bring it to b2 or c2") 18... Bd3 (now Rc2 is not an option. Also the d4 pawn is cut off and vulnerable). 19. Rb2 (again, just following your plan...) 19... Ke6 I'm already at a loss for what to play for White, so here's the position: + Show Spoiler [position] + After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Ra2 Bd3 19. Rb2 Ke6 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2u5yB.png) White to play On October 06 2011 15:08 jdseemoreglass wrote: Well, the most recent line avoids both.You guys are spending practically all your analysis assuming f5... I really think you should be looking at Bb7 instead. From what I've seen, those lines are less forgiving. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On October 06 2011 16:17 qrs wrote: + Show Spoiler + I'm pretty sure b4 has been discussed at least in general, although it's hard to pick out specific posts on the subject, there has been so much analysis this turn. The general theme, I believe was that ...a5 followed by ...Ba6 were what causes problems in most lines where we play b4. We can barely move our pieces after this. 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 17...Ba6 At this point, your line has already diverged, so I don't know what you want to try here. I'll go with your stated plan of 18. Ra2 ("to bring it to b2 or c2") 18... Bd3 (now Rc2 is not an option. Also the d4 pawn is cut off and vulnerable). 19. Rb2 (again, just following your plan...) 19... Ke6 I'm already at a loss for what to play for White, so here's the position: + Show Spoiler [position] + After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Ra2 Bd3 19. Rb2 Ke6 White to play Well, the most recent line avoids both. + Show Spoiler + Instead of Ke5, I think 18. ... Rhb8 followed by Bxc5 if we try to play Nc5, puts us in a pretty bad position in my opinion... our center is about to fall apart, the position is wide open for his rooks and bishop, he has an outpost on b3, our king is trapped in the center with no where to go, and our bishop and a rook are stuck in place... | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 06 2011 16:30 jdseemoreglass wrote: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + Instead of Ke5, I think 18. ... Rhb8 followed by Bxc5 if we try to play Nc5, puts us in a pretty bad position in my opinion... our center is about to fall apart, the position is wide open for his rooks and bishop, he has an outpost on b3, our king is trapped in the center with no where to go, and our bishop and a rook are stuck in place... Well, either way I'd play the same basic moves: retreat the Knight to c3, play f4 to hold the e-pawn, plan to move our King to c2, and be alert for the possibility of tempo-gaining attacks on the valuable piece in the center (such as Be3 if he leaves it on d4). The outpost on b3 is not as valuable here as in other lines, with the Knight on c3. 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Ng1 a5 16. Ne2 Ba6 17. Nc3 Ke6 18. Nxe4 Rhd8 19. Nc3 Rxd4 20. f4. Maybe this is slightly better for Black than my line that put the King in the center of the board, but I see the position as pretty similar (and on the whole I like it). Meanwhile, here's a spot of analysis of your line: On October 06 2011 00:27 jdseemoreglass wrote: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + If we play 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2.... The problem as I see it, is if black doesn't play f5, and instead plays Bb7. Here I don't think Nc4 is viable, because black can play Bd5, clamping down on the position. We can't really play b4 instead here, because black can break the position open for his bishops with either a5, or c5, or both. I really don't see any good move or plan for us in this position. In your line, with 16...Bd5, I don't see a problem with 17. Ne3. 16...Ke6 may be more problematic for us in this line, though (as in so many others). Edit: I take this back. On further review, 17. Ne3 doesn't seem quite good enough after 17...Ke6, 18...c5. Meanwhile, 16...Ke6 is probably met by 17. b4. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 06 2011 16:17 qrs wrote: + Show Spoiler + I'm pretty sure b4 has been discussed at least in general, although it's hard to pick out specific posts on the subject, there has been so much analysis this turn. The general theme, I believe was that ...a5 followed by ...Ba6 were what causes problems in most lines where we play b4. We can barely move our pieces after this. 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 17...Ba6 At this point, your line has already diverged, so I don't know what you want to try here. I'll go with your stated plan of 18. Ra2 ("to bring it to b2 or c2") 18... Bd3 (now Rc2 is not an option. Also the d4 pawn is cut off and vulnerable). 19. Rb2 (again, just following your plan...) 19... Ke6 I'm already at a loss for what to play for White, so here's the position: + Show Spoiler [position] + After 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Ra2 Bd3 19. Rb2 Ke6 White to play Well, the most recent line avoids both. + Show Spoiler + I have a slightly different move planend for Ba6 and that is 18. Nf1. I've looked over most of the lines, and it looks good in most of them. Here is the main one I found: 17...Ba6 18. Nf1 Bd3 19. Ne3 Ke6 (f4 drops a pawn) 20. Bd2 Rb3 21. Rc1 Rxa3 22. Rxc7 Ra1+ 23. Nd1 Rb8 24. Rc6+ Kd5 25. Rb6 and I believe black will get the a pawn back, but white should be able to maintain his connected passed pawns. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QBH7i.gif) If you see any holes in my analysis, let me know please  Like I said, this is what I thought the best line for black following Nf1 is, but there might be something better for him, | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
Not for the king's protection, but because it's that time of the game when rooks come out and play. | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On October 07 2011 00:42 mastergriggy wrote: + Show Spoiler + I have a slightly different move planend for Ba6 and that is 18. Nf1. I've looked over most of the lines, and it looks good in most of them. Here is the main one I found: 17...Ba6 18. Nf1 Bd3 19. Ne3 Ke6 (f4 drops a pawn) 20. Bd2 Rb3 21. Rc1 Rxa3 22. Rxc7 Ra1+ 23. Nd1 Rb8 24. Rc6+ Kd5 25. Rb6 and I believe black will get the a pawn back, but white should be able to maintain his connected passed pawns. If you see any holes in my analysis, let me know please Like I said, this is what I thought the best line for black following Nf1 is, but there might be something better for him,+ Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Nf1 Rb3 19. Ne3 Ke6 20. Bd2 Rhb8 and Rb1 next. Bd3 isn't good yet because white can't put its rook on b1 anyway. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 07 2011 01:04 greggy wrote: I looked at this line too (edit: i.e. I looked at mastergriggy's line when he posted it). My deviation came a bit later, but I also thought that this looked very good for Black. Ordinarily I'd post my reasoning along with the moves, and I'd also have a look at greggy's line, but I'm really tired just now, so I'll just post the line, and elaborate on it after, if need be. + Show Spoiler [my variation] ++ Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Nf1 Rb3 19. Ne3 Ke6 20. Bd2 Rhb8 and Rb1 next. Bd3 isn't good yet because white can't put its rook on b1 anyway. 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Nf1 Bd3 19. Ne3 Ke6 20. Bd2 f4 | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 07 2011 01:16 qrs wrote: I looked at this line too (edit: i.e. I looked at mastergriggy's line when he posted it). My deviation came a bit later, but I also thought that this looked very good for Black. Ordinarily I'd post my reasoning along with the moves, and I'd also have a look at greggy's line, but I'm really tired just now, so I'll just post the line, and elaborate on it after, if need be. + Show Spoiler [my variation] + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Nf1 Bd3 19. Ne3 Ke6 20. Bd2 f4 In response to Qrs's line + Show Spoiler + there is actually a cool tactic for white after 20...f4 21. d5+ Kxe5 22. Bc3+ Kd6 23. Nf5+ Kd7 24. Nxe7 Kxe7 25. Bxg7 Rhg8 26. Be5 looks great for white . I'll post a response to greggy once I analysis it some more. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 07 2011 01:55 mastergriggy wrote: Ah, I hadn't noticed that tactic. It makes Black's position look not nearly as good as I thought, anyway. Once you respond to greggy, I'll look at your latest line and think about this again. Maybe your move is better than it looked to me at first glance.In response to Qrs's line + Show Spoiler + there is actually a cool tactic for white after 20...f4 21. d5+ Kxe5 22. Bc3+ Kd6 23. Nf5+ Kd7 24. Nxe7 Kxe7 25. Bxg7 Rhg8 26. Be5 looks great for white . I'll post a response to greggy once I analysis it some more. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
Move 14 Votes + Show Spoiler [Voters] + 14. Nxe4: 11 (Soluhwin, Ikari, 14. 0-0: 13 (GenesisX, SheaR619, EvilNalu, shackes, Raysalis, Bill Murray, Mash2, Malinor, jdseemoreglass, Chezus, wizard944, Archers_bane, Sm3agol) 14. b4: 0-1 (Joseki?) (Joseki's vote was in spoiler tags, so Ng5 may not tally it) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5VyR6.png) | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
When I get back home tonight I will send a PM to everyone - even if you voted so far - and encourage you to read up on all the new analysis and vote or change your vote. In return I will try to reply instantly tomorrow night (well in case of Nxe4 it won't be all that hard, eh). That way everyone will know about the extension and have some time to catch up on reading, still. I think it's worth one day and it suits my 'take at least one day whenever you can' mindset perfectly as well. Cheers, and props for the deep passion you are giving into this! | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Nf1 Rb3 19. Ne3 Ke6 20. Bd2 Rhb8 21. Rc1 Rb1 22. Nd1 Rxc1 23. Bxc1 Rb3 24. g4 fxg4 25. Rg1 h5 26. Rg3 is the best I can find for white that holds the pawn. Doesn't look the most promise, but it's a get out of jail free card that maintains a pawn advantage and activates the rook. Additionally white has two passed pawns which seem a major plus. But white is still very disorganized. Sorry I'd upload the board but I'm on a university computer and they won't allowed me too. I looked at 20. g4 instead of Bd2, but that seems to be wishful thinking to play it this soon. Maybe 20. Nc2 works better for white, but I'm to worn out to analyze it right now. Time for a nap. Edit: Also this is the first time in a long time I've been so passionate about playing a game of chess. Thanks community for making it fun to work through lines again :D | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On October 07 2011 04:34 mastergriggy wrote: Response to Greggy's line: + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Nf1 Rb3 19. Ne3 Ke6 20. Bd2 Rhb8 21. Rc1 Rb1 22. Nd1 Rxc1 23. Bxc1 Rb3 24. g4 fxg4 25. Rg1 h5 26. Rg3 is the best I can find for white that holds the pawn. Doesn't look the most promise, but it's a get out of jail free card that maintains a pawn advantage and activates the rook. Additionally white has two passed pawns which seem a major plus. But white is still very disorganized. Sorry I'd upload the board but I'm on a university computer and they won't allowed me too. I looked at 20. g4 instead of Bd2, but that seems to be wishful thinking to play it this soon. Maybe 20. Nc2 works better for white, but I'm to worn out to analyze it right now. Time for a nap. Edit: Also this is the first time in a long time I've been so passionate about playing a game of chess. Thanks community for making it fun to work through lines again :D + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Nf1 Rb3 19. Ne3 Ke6 20. Bd2 Rhb8 21. Rc1 Rb1 22. Nd1 Kd5 and white's dead: 23. Rxb1 Rxb1 24. Be3 Bxa3 25. Kd2 Bd3 26. Kc3 Bb4# + Show Spoiler + Also, can someone quote me a line where white doesn't lose after Nxe4? I don't get why we're still going over it when time after time it's been shown that white either loses the extra pawn or loses outright trying to cling to it. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 07 2011 05:01 greggy wrote: (hope you don't mind my taking that out of spoilers: since it went into no details I thought it was all right to give it a little more visibility)Also, can someone quote me a line where white doesn't lose after Nxe4? I don't get why we're still going over it when time after time it's been shown that white either loses the extra pawn or loses outright trying to cling to it. The latest version of your very own line seems to work out all right, at least in my opinion (jdseemoreglass was a bit more skeptical last he posted). There's also another line that I've considered looking into + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7/f5 16. f4 Finally, jdseemoreglass says that + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4 One plan here is jd's Na5 followed by b4. Another is Ne3 followed by d5. On the other hand, jdseemoreglass (who voted for 14. 0-0) sees problems in the line + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7 The key advantage for 15...Bb7 over 15...f5, for Black, is that while both moves accomplish Black's goal of guarding the e4 pawn, 15....Bb7 serves the additional purpose of strengthening Black's control over d5. In various lines, this translates into a crucial tempo. Of course none of this precludes posting analysis on earlier alternatives like 14. 0-0 (or even 14. b3, maybe). TL; DR: just read the blue sentence. | ||
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wuBu
United States83 Posts
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 07 2011 05:01 greggy wrote: + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Nf1 Rb3 19. Ne3 Ke6 20. Bd2 Rhb8 21. Rc1 Rb1 22. Nd1 Kd5 and white's dead: 23. Rxb1 Rxb1 24. Be3 Bxa3 25. Kd2 Bd3 26. Kc3 Bb4# + Show Spoiler + Also, can someone quote me a line where white doesn't lose after Nxe4? I don't get why we're still going over it when time after time it's been shown that white either loses the extra pawn or loses outright trying to cling to it. That line of yours doesn't work at all + Show Spoiler + after 22...Kd5? 23. Nc3+ outright wins the rook. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
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dtvu
Australia687 Posts
On October 07 2011 05:30 qrs wrote: (hope you don't mind my taking that out of spoilers: since it went into no details I thought it was all right to give it a little more visibility) The latest version of your very own line seems to work out all right, at least in my opinion (jdseemoreglass was a bit more skeptical last he posted). There's also another line that I've considered looking into + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7/f5 16. f4 Finally, jdseemoreglass says that + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4 One plan here is jd's Na5 followed by b4. Another is Ne3 followed by d5. On the other hand, jdseemoreglass (who voted for 14. 0-0) sees problems in the line + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7 The key advantage for 15...Bb7 over 15...f5, for Black, is that while both moves accomplish Black's goal of guarding the e4 pawn, 15....Bb7 serves the additional purpose of strengthening Black's control over d5. In various lines, this translates into a crucial tempo. Of course none of this precludes posting analysis on earlier alternatives like 14. 0-0 (or even 14. b3, maybe). TL; DR: just read the blue sentence. Going Along the line That jdseemoreglass is worried about: + Show Spoiler + 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb7 16. f3 + Show Spoiler + 16... f5 17.fxe4 fxe5 18. Nb3 Bd5 19. Nc5! Kc6 20. b4 We will be in an alright position. | ||
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keyStorm
Canada316 Posts
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