EPTRockband Mini Mafia - Page 5
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:09 Blazinghand wrote: The fact of the matter is, as town prplhz is aggressive, throws his vote around, and is fearless, and in like 4 scum games he is the opposite. Sorry, is 4 scum games not enough to convince you to vote him? That's fine! Show me some counter-evidence! If you think he's genuinely town, you have 2 options to move my vote off him. 1) show me my case is wrong (rather than just poking at it ineffectually). I've seen you do this as town so I know you can. 2) present a better case. If it's really a bad D1 case like you said, you should be able to do better. Do it. I'll vote who-ever is the scummiest in the thread and lynch scum. Right now, that's prplhz, and you have utterly failed to convince me otherwise. Sample. Size. It's been... what... an hour? If "townie" prplhz is aggressive, fearless, throws his vote around, you need much more than a half-page of filter to figure that out. Maybe you have some sick meta read on him or something, but I sure as hell can't see it in that case. I'll propose a lynch candidate as the day gets underway. It may be prplhz, who knows, but it sure as hell won't be based on his first-posting tendencies. Hell you can probably find my first-posting tendencies as town/mafia that won't be indicative at all of my alignment. I'm sure as hell I could do the same for anyone here. I'm much more interested in overall mentality and behavior rather than some silly meta-pattern. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Elaboration on the first half - + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2012 00:43 austinmcc wrote: Here's something to consider as well, but I don't know that it matters much. Matt posts that he's going to sheep marv. Matt never sheeps marv. Okay, that's just dumb but not really scummy. But... Nobody else seemed concerned about this. I'm guessing nobody knows why I asked this? Take a look at marv's last 5 town games: MTG unthemed mini (both played) - D1 marv votes Mouldy Jeb (town), D2 pushes zealos (scum) bang bang (mattchew didn't play) - D1 marv suspects RoL (town), shoots Gonzaw (cop) movie star (both played) - D1 marv votes Zentor (town), D2 marv votes mattchew (scum), and N2 shoots VE (town) LVI (both played) - D1 marv votes foxtrotter (town), N1 shoots drwiggl3s (town) NMMII (mattchew didn't play)- D1 marv votes drwiggl3s (town), N1 shoots MsZontar (town) Recent games, Marv is 0/5 on D1. 0/3 on vigi shots. 2/4 on D2 reads. Mattchew PLAYED in three of those games, so he's seen this. No offense marv, you know I agreed on a chunk of those reads and pushed some of those players, but your D1 reads, empirically, aren't good for sheeping. I didn't post that summary yesterday because matt didn't look like a lynch candidate and I thought that, if it did anything, it would just derail thread, because nobody was talking about matt really. Plus, it's not quite ... scummy? It shows he's not paying full attention, not really having solid reasoning, but it's not outright scummy to be wrong about marv's D1 reads being better than gonzaw. However, it gave me pause. Something to think about. Elaboration on the second half - Pudding is soft. Munching feels like it requires chewing, crunching. Can't do that with pudding. As to the obvious bit, obvious is the wrong word. I like...neat observations like that. It says something, unsure what, about you that you could pull out the starts to prplhz's game just like POOF. Like, I key in on the initial question more than the actual scummy stuff, because there's a chance that prplhz doesn't realize he's started scum games like that. But ... he has to, right? I gotta leave work, but the thought process is convoluted here. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
It's great to finally play with you  .But didn't you say something along these lines in your scumhunting guide?: On August 21 2012 03:10 Blazinghand wrote: [D][G]Basic Scumhunting and Voting Strategies -snip- Meta This belongs up top with Policy, but it's down here instead. Basically, if you've played many games with a player, you might recognize patterns in her play. She could be a lurker as scum but active as town, or maybe only does a certain kind of analysis when she's scum. Regardless, you have some scumtells that are only scumtells for a particular player. Pros: can be effective for players with consistent meta. also lets you identify if a certain player is town. easy to use. Cons: meta is wrong a lot-- sometimes a player is just busier than usual, or has updated their playstyle. meta cases, like policy cases, let scum join wagons without scumhunting. doesn't work on players with short histories or Chezinu. Rating: ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/images/blackstar.gif) -snip- Why would you place so much weight on a "meta"-read based off the way someone's opened up playing a game, when you consider such a strategy generally weak? I consider a small sampling of games like that to hardly be "conclusive" that prplhlz would only behave as he has here as scum. However, that prplhlz's play doesn't generate any meaningful discussion is a valid point. This is definitely scummy behavior. On Policy Discussion: As for how the game's started out: now for the last few games I've played in they start with trolling, which turns into hasty accusations, which then eventually turns into an actual game of scumhunting... We've already gone this direction again... I don't understand why policy has been so rarely brought up at the start of games (at least the games that I've played), as it is far more productive than trolling. I'd like to briefly discuss policy here: If for whatever reason we can't find someone who we feel has a decent chance of flipping scum, I propose we lynch a lurker. Tbh, I don't believe we will have this problem. But we should have some kind of contingency plan to fall back on if discussion, for whatever reason, takes us nowhere. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:14 Hapahauli wrote: Sample. Size. It's been... what... an hour? If "townie" prplhz is aggressive, fearless, throws his vote around, you need much more than a half-page of filter to figure that out. Maybe you have some sick meta read on him or something, but I sure as hell can't see it in that case. I'll propose a lynch candidate as the day gets underway. It may be prplhz, who knows, but it sure as hell won't be based on his first-posting tendencies. Hell you can probably find my first-posting tendencies as town/mafia that won't be indicative at all of my alignment. I'm sure as hell I could do the same for anyone here. I'm much more interested in overall mentality and behavior rather than some silly meta-pattern. Prplhz mentality and behavior is that of a dude who is prodding and asking inane questions to which he already knows the answer. This rings alarm bells for me, and it's the reason I did some research into his meta in the first place. You're welcome to dismiss the meta, but the fact of the matter is he has done no scumhunting and has tried to appear active when in fact he is asking questions which do not apply pressure and to which he already knows the answer. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:17 goodkarma wrote: @Blazinghand: It's great to finally play with you .But didn't you say something along these lines in your scumhunting guide?: Why would you place so much weight on a "meta"-read based off the way someone's opened up playing a game, when you consider such a strategy generally weak? I consider a small sampling of games like that to hardly be "conclusive" that prplhlz would only behave as he has here as scum. However, that prplhlz's play doesn't generate any meaningful discussion is a valid point. This is definitely scummy behavior. Present me as scummier target and I'll gladly vote him. Feel free to dismiss the meta elements of the case if meta isn't to your taste, but you do admit (and props for that) that in addition to playing his scum meta, prplhz is also objectively playing like scum. On September 18 2012 07:17 goodkarma wrote: On Policy Discussion: As for how the game's started out: now for the last few games I've played in they start with trolling, which turns into hasty accusations, which then eventually turns into an actual game of scumhunting... We've already gone this direction again... I don't understand why policy has been so rarely brought up at the start of games (at least the games that I've played), as it is far more productive than trolling. I'd like to briefly discuss policy here: If for whatever reason we can't find someone who we feel has a decent chance of flipping scum, I propose we lynch a lurker. Tbh, I don't believe we will have this problem. But we should have some kind of contingency plan to fall back on if discussion, for whatever reason, takes us nowhere. If you can't find someone who you feel has a decent chance of flipping scum after 48 hours in this game, you should leave and never come back. If you want to do a policy lynch later on, propose it and I'll evaluate it on its merits. I reserve the right to vote for who I want, when I want, for the reasons I want. I also reserve the right to tell you you're awful for not having a scumread. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:16 austinmcc wrote: Elaboration on the first half - + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2012 00:43 austinmcc wrote: Here's something to consider as well, but I don't know that it matters much. Matt posts that he's going to sheep marv. Matt never sheeps marv. Okay, that's just dumb but not really scummy. But... Nobody else seemed concerned about this. I'm guessing nobody knows why I asked this? Take a look at marv's last 5 town games: MTG unthemed mini (both played) - D1 marv votes Mouldy Jeb (town), D2 pushes zealos (scum) bang bang (mattchew didn't play) - D1 marv suspects RoL (town), shoots Gonzaw (cop) movie star (both played) - D1 marv votes Zentor (town), D2 marv votes mattchew (scum), and N2 shoots VE (town) LVI (both played) - D1 marv votes foxtrotter (town), N1 shoots drwiggl3s (town) NMMII (mattchew didn't play)- D1 marv votes drwiggl3s (town), N1 shoots MsZontar (town) Recent games, Marv is 0/5 on D1. 0/3 on vigi shots. 2/4 on D2 reads. Mattchew PLAYED in three of those games, so he's seen this. No offense marv, you know I agreed on a chunk of those reads and pushed some of those players, but your D1 reads, empirically, aren't good for sheeping. I didn't post that summary yesterday because matt didn't look like a lynch candidate and I thought that, if it did anything, it would just derail thread, because nobody was talking about matt really. Plus, it's not quite ... scummy? It shows he's not paying full attention, not really having solid reasoning, but it's not outright scummy to be wrong about marv's D1 reads being better than gonzaw. However, it gave me pause. Something to think about. Elaboration on the second half - Pudding is soft. Munching feels like it requires chewing, crunching. Can't do that with pudding. As to the obvious bit, obvious is the wrong word. I like...neat observations like that. It says something, unsure what, about you that you could pull out the starts to prplhz's game just like POOF. Like, I key in on the initial question more than the actual scummy stuff, because there's a chance that prplhz doesn't realize he's started scum games like that. But ... he has to, right? I gotta leave work, but the thought process is convoluted here. The "it's way too scummy, he must be town" argument is dumb on its head. What are you even saying | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
speak plainly or die like a little bitch. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:17 Blazinghand wrote: Prplhz mentality and behavior is that of a dude who is prodding and asking inane questions to which he already knows the answer. This rings alarm bells for me, and it's the reason I did some research into his meta in the first place. You're welcome to dismiss the meta, but the fact of the matter is he has done no scumhunting and has tried to appear active when in fact he is asking questions which do not apply pressure and to which he already knows the answer. It's been a fucking hour. That's not enough to display an overall "mentality and behavior." Why don't we take a step back, wait for him to gather a couple of posts, THEN decide if he's poking and prodding. If he's still doing this stuff, yes, let's lynch the hell out of him. That's part of his scum meta. His first few posts are not indicative of mentality. For example, I have a history of strongly advocating "lynch-lurker" type policies as my opener as town. I am deviating from this right now. Does that make me mafia? People are capable of changing those things on a whim. Basing a meta read on 6 posts is stupid. I'd much rather have 24 hours of his posting history in this game, and then I'll make a more-informed decision on his mentality. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
##Vote austinmcc | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:12 Mementoss wrote: I did explain it, I found his first post scummy and your case was just some icing on the scum. 1 It's literally an hour in the game, there is no such thing as voting too early.2 If anything it's going to generate more discussion that can be looked into more later.3 But I agree on austinmcc being hard to tell what hes getting at as I pointed out, which seems scummy as he usually is very articulate in his posts and has a clear meaning for posting them. 4 Holy wishy-washy post batman! Let's follow the logic: 1) First post is scummy and case makes prplhz scummier! 2) No such thing as voting too early! (errr... where did that come from? making excuses already?) 3) But eh... it will generate discussion and we'll look more into it later. (oh? thought prplhz was very scummy to you? awfully passive for such a strong read on him) 4) Holy freggin wishy-washy opinion on austinmcc. | ||
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:46 Hapahauli wrote: Alas! Austinmcc is at work so we won't be hearing from him for a while. One other post did catch my eye though: Holy wishy-washy post batman! Let's follow the logic: 1) First post is scummy and case makes prplhz scummier! 2) No such thing as voting too early! (errr... where did that come from? making excuses already?) 3) But eh... it will generate discussion and we'll look more into it later. (oh? thought prplhz was very scummy to you? awfully passive for such a strong read on him) 4) Holy freggin wishy-washy opinion on austinmcc. 1) Yeah first post was scummy and it fits the meta analysis aka best case atm. How is accusing people scummy? 2) I said no such thing as voting too early is because a lot of people think they have to wait till last minute to vote especially on day 1, and usually a bad consolidation happens. Voting earlier will just bring up more cases throughout the day. 3) Nothing to do with one another. 4) How is calling someone scummy wishy washy. I don't follow your logic. But I guess it's your thing to jump on me day 1s lol. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 18 2012 07:21 Blazinghand wrote: The "it's way too scummy, he must be town" argument is dumb on its head. What are you even saying On September 18 2012 07:23 marvellosity wrote: It's not that it's too scummy to be town. Because the part of your post that I key in on is that prplhz, in two other scum games, and in none of the games he's played as town (out of what you reference), opens in a similar manner.austin, you're not playing with grush. speak plainly or die like a little bitch. I think you are stretching when you say that the questions are scummy. Yes he can go look the guy up. Yes, he might ought to at least remember that the guy played in a game he hosted. But it's not like...asking a question about who someone is is scummy on its face. There's no scumhunting heuristic for "opens games asking questions about a particular player." It MAY be scummy as applied to prplhz, but it's not like every player who opens like that is probably scum. So then . . . working off that. If it's not scummy on its face, but might be scummy to prplhz, why? There's no objective pushed there, it's not like starting off a game with that post helps a mafia objective. If prplhz is scum and happens to start all his scum games this way, it's just something he does without knowing it. There's no objective pushed. Then finally, if starting games that way as scum is just something prplhz does without knowing it, not to push an objective, then . . . it's almost null? Not getting there in the same way "small sample size" gets there. The train of thought is... (1) This is a thing that prplhz has done in scum games (2) This is a thing that does not further mafia objectives, or actively DO anything really (3) Therefore, it's likely he's just doing it subconsciously (4) If he's doing it subconsciously, then it's not really a tell. Could argue that he only does it subconsciously as scum, but then you get the sample size discussion and there's no real proof either way. So obvious was really the wrong word choice, when I fully go through this. On September 18 2012 07:30 Hapahauli wrote: To the bolded - What read? If you think I jumped on some bandwagon, or really tried to push some case, okeedoke. Show where that happened. However, I'm guilty as charged at wanting to talk about the pudding comment. I think in part you're misinterpreting my comments, and in part my comments are not reflective of my thought process, assuming we're going off the "too obvious" comment.But enough of that, austinmcc is more content to talk about pudding than his actual rationale for his read. "Neat observations..." like WTF does that even mean? The whole post reads like him running in circles around the question rather than answering it. ##Vote austinmcc To the italicized - Think of all the D1 cases that you've seen. Most of them hinge on a single post, or a couple posts, but I have never seen one like this. It combines some general meta stuff, which I've seen in cases, with this really, really odd observation. That prplhz has started 2 scum games in almost the same way, but no recent town games. Either BH has some crazy memory and remembers prplhz's first posts from a couple/all prplhz's recent games, or something else is afoot. I'm willing to believe that the former is the case, but if prplhz flips and he flips scum this game, I'm going to be looking at BH. When he keys in on something SO weird and SO tiny, I'm not discounting the possibility that it's actually prplhz who knows how he's started recent games, tells a scumbuddy he's going to do the same thing, and voila! Town cred for BH. I'm not immediately going to try and lynch BH because of that, but it's going to be a thought in my mind. The way that BH started his case gives us SOME insight into BH. I don't quite know what yet, but it's such an odd find from prplhz's filter over multiple games that it's useful for reading BH, the finder, as much or more than it's useful for reading prplhz. So...it's neat that way? It's not the normal way someone makes a D1 case. It's not the normal way someone makes a meta case even, "x always uses this phrase as scum." It's peculiar, and so interesting in general. This is not one of those cases, but I also tend to make 1-2 townreads per game based on just weird phrasing or arguments people use. So far, those reads haven't been wrong. But part of how I play seems to be that I'm looking for weird statements and basing entire reads off of those. Too lazy to get links now, but see hyaach in LV, Suki in... newbie XVI or something, either BC or DrH in LVII, and...I think there was one in PTP3? There's one more out there, but I forget what it is. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 18 2012 08:03 austinmcc wrote: This part of that post should come off...less hostile? I just think you're seeing something that wasn't there, as was another person or two. I didn't vote anyone. I didn't go BEST CASE EVER BH HIGH FIVE! I noted that I found some of it neat, and then brain farted out what's basically a typo with the "obvious" bit.To the bolded - What read? If you think I jumped on some bandwagon, or really tried to push some case, okeedoke. Show where that happened. However, I'm guilty as charged at wanting to talk about the pudding comment. I think in part you're misinterpreting my comments, and in part my comments are not reflective of my thought process, assuming we're going off the "too obvious" comment. For instance, you say that I'm more content to talk about pudding than my rationale for my read. But you also say On September 18 2012 07:04 Hapahauli wrote: Do you not find it a little odd that you both think I am more interested in discussing the term "pudding-munchers" than my read AND am someone you think was the "most willing to be jumping on BH's case"? Those two thoughts don't feel like they harmonize. Each presents sort of a different version of my post - pushing a read and jumping on a case vs. being more content to chat and not scumhunt right at that moment. In fact, I'd expect scum to be the people most willing to be jumping on BH's case without so much as a thought. Namely austinmcc and mementoss | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
I wanna lynch goodkarma. That first post of his is really cautious (barely pressures BH even though he calls out a perceived contradiction and then calls prplhz's play scummy but doesn't throw a vote down on it) He then proceeds to bring up a point of discussion (lynching lurkers), which he himself admits likely won't happen this game. ##Vote goodkarma | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Yes, you have successfully posted a link to prplhz' filter in Mad Men. Would you like a cookie? A gold star? It must have been a lot of effort for you, and you really made yourself clear. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
@ Austinmcc - Well posted and thanks for explaining your rationale. Enough for me to take the vote off for now. @ mmtoss - On September 18 2012 08:02 Mementoss wrote: 1) Yeah first post was scummy and it fits the meta analysis aka best case atm. How is accusing people scummy? 2) I said no such thing as voting too early is because a lot of people think they have to wait till last minute to vote especially on day 1, and usually a bad consolidation happens. Voting earlier will just bring up more cases throughout the day. 3) Nothing to do with one another. 4) How is calling someone scummy wishy washy. I don't follow your logic. But I guess it's your thing to jump on me day 1s lol. Point 1) is fine alone. It's the rest of your post that starts spiraling. Why are you making excuses for voting too early (point 2 + 3)? Cool, you're voting early, no one is suspicious of you for it... and then you make pro-active excuses for it. Point 4 is a red flag for me in that you are soft-pushing suspicion on him. For reference: But I agree on austinmcc being hard to tell what hes getting at as I pointed out, which seems scummy as he usually is very articulate in his posts and has a clear meaning for posting them. 4 Dayyyyum son. ##Vote mementoss | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
scum could you go in the scum QT and ask him to come back and post plz | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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