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On May 07 2011 04:39 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:34 sandroba wrote:
@chaoser No, we are discussing a plan to help improve the quality of the thread. You are trying to shut it down, instead of contributing to improve it. That's suspicious yo.
@redtooth I don't play this game professionally and the whole point of playing mafia for me is having fun, else I wouldn't be playing it. I can pretty much guarantee that everyone else here feels the same way. I don't know why you are assuming everyone here is not having fun. I for sure am. If people were not having fun they would not be posting here, they would just ask for sub. Contributing to improve what?!!? There's no need to improve anything. If there was a need to actually put forth guidelines you don't think previous town would have done it? There's no need to place in an artificial system when an organic one already works. I'd tell you to go PM Ver, Foolishness, Qatol, Ace, etc. about the discussion being had right now except that's going outside the game. You have no idea how ego-driven this whole issue is and looks like. PMing Ver and Qatol is allowed. Please do so, I encourage it. Actually, have you talked to RoL and Coagulation? Ask them if, objectively, the town is doing well. Even they will probably say that it is not. Previous towns haven't been this disorganized and unfocused. Is it that implausible that one group of town might require a different playstyle than another?
It's not ego-driven by anybody except yourself. You refuse to sign onto a protown move simply because you didn't want to be subject to somebody else's rules. I had my ragepost, I apologized, I am trying to move on with as positive an attitude as I can. What have you done lately?
Also, what do you propose we do instead? Should we talk about who we think are scum? I mean our reads did change a lot but what's the point. It's not like we're going to lynch someone as soon as the daypost hits. Every single one of our reads is going to be impacted greatly by the daypost. What do you propose we do?
Stop making me look scummy. I'm doing my best to try and help town. At this point, you're only digging yourself a deeper grave.
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EBWDP: Quoted the wrong post but it's a post on your general impressions of the game, which I feel are wrong. Either way, I'm not going to continue this line of conversation anymore. You can continue to put forth your guidelines and not analyze and I'll keep on trying to find mafia.
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On May 07 2011 04:45 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:39 redtooth wrote:On May 07 2011 04:34 sandroba wrote:
@redtooth I don't play this game professionally and the whole point of playing mafia for me is having fun, else I wouldn't be playing it. I can pretty much guarantee that everyone else here feels the same way. I don't know why you are assuming everyone here is not having fun. I for sure am. If people were not having fun they would not be posting here, they would just ask for sub. We're arguing semantics here. "Fun" to me is giggling and trolling and generally messing around. "Enjoyment" comes from enjoying the game with the primary source being the satisfaction of winning. If you go back to page 1, Node states clearly "Play to win. You have been warned." I'm not attempting to shut down your hunt of scum, just raise the quality. I'm not attempting to directly ruin your enjoyment, just trying to make sure that its enjoyable for me (who really wants to win) and for the less active (who really don't want to wade through shit). Where is the shit? Seriously? You know what shit is? Shit is spending half of day arguing about inactives. Shit is spending half of day talking about whether night should be spent doing analysis or not. Shit is spending half of day talking about the merits of suggesting blue action lists. We've had a VERY productive day. People pointed out good cases against sinani, Jackal might be onto something with Cthsazsa, Irish's case still stands, and people are starting to look at Amber. There's a shitload of GOOD ANALYSIS out there. Whether you agree it's good or not is your OPINION. It's not a FACT. What you're doing right now is shit. Go analysis someone, cause you haven't done that all game. You keep talking about it, but you haven't done any. You've been going on about me all game and I think that's more ego driven than anything else. I helped build a good town atmosphere, I don't know what you've done. K I'll take that into consideration.
Obviously we disagree on what to do. I mean you're more than welcome to post analysis right now. Meanwhile, I'll be trying to discuss what the best way to move forward is.
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Maybe following those rule is the optimal way, but how does that matter if people won't follow 'em?
Alright, I will ask you again: Is your goal to have most of the people follow this guideline? If so, make them more reasonable. If it stays as it is, I will particulary not follow some of them. You will see that most vets will not as well. If some of the people that adhered to your guidelines disregard analysis done by the people that don't, that's a net loss for town.
What's your true intention in making those guide lines? Construct them in a way that really tries to reach your goal.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
If we agree to play along, within reason, will you guys stop spamming up the thread? A 4 page discussion about things like whether or not we should allow 4 quotes or 5 quotes in a post or whether or not the plan makes the game fun is just plain silly. Good analysis should be valued, bad analysis should be ignored. Seems pretty simple to me.
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Also, if you're attacking me for my ego, I just changed my signature to make me look like an idiot in an attempt to undo the damage I had done earlier. I currently have 3700+ posts in this website, aka 3700+ locations for other users to see my signature and laugh at how retarded I am. No ego here son.
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On May 07 2011 04:47 sandroba wrote:
Maybe following those rule is the optimal way, but how does that matter if people won't follow 'em?
Alright, I will ask you again: Is your goal to have most of the people follow this guideline? If so, make them more reasonable. If it stays as it is, I will particulary not follow some of them. You will see that most vets will not as well. If some of the people that adhered to your guidelines disregard analysis done by the people that don't, that's a net loss for town. What's your true intention in making those guide lines? Construct them in a way that really tries to reach your goal. Please do. I'm really tired right now after arguing Chaoser. I literally conjured those guidelines out of thin air, they are not perfect but they definitely are the best I could think of.
Don't take this as passive aggressive or anything but... do you want to take over enforcing them? They won't like it if I do it.
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No, I don't agree in enforcing anything, because I feel this will split the town even more. I think those should be guidelines and treated as so. Having 10 people randomly fosing on someone or disregarding their analysis, just because they did not follow standard x is a bad move.
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I think all people playing the game are capable enough to make this decision on this and there is no need for redtooth or chaoser or any other vet for that matter to force their ideal town methodologies on the rest of the town (esp. given the fact that none of them are proven to be town at this point of time). As much as redtooth is free to disregard analysis not posted in his prescribed format, the rest of town is free to disregard his set of standards.
This will be my only post in regard of this matter since it is reaching a point where it does nothing but derail discussion away from finding mafia.
Personally, I will post in a more clear and concise manner (close enough but not necessarily exactly following the format). Red and anyone else are free to disregard if they think that format is greater than content. I will still read and take into account any good analysis (regardless of co-sponsors and 3 hr time/3 page limits and other such limitations).
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hmph. Did i not say this incredibly early on? zz i suspect AO and Chaoser. Just cause.
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First chance I've had to read this since my post this morning. I got as far as Redtooths requirements for FoSing somebody.
Sorry dude. I'm not filling out a form letter to satisfy your ego. Don't like it. Lynch me.
I may not be able to go through all of this before some time on Sunday. I'll be reading but I probably won't have much heart to put into it for the next day or so. My dad is dying and my thoughts and duties are with him and my family atm.
Don't replace me Node. This is my distraction from the real world.
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It's clear that Redtooth is derailing the thread and taking attention away from scumhunting by creating his own set of rules that we "have" to follow.
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@Conversion, I don't see why you need to get so angry. Chill out man.
The only person I FoS'd that was calling me scum was you, anyways.
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If you want to read about me then read the below quote. If not hit scroll down to the next time you see the dotted lines for how I ended up voting for Kurumi.
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On May 07 2011 02:38 chaoser wrote:Who died and made you the king... Some of those points leave no wiggle room. "No more than 4 quotes"? "All new arguments can't be linked to old arguments"? Mistakes on one part of the assessment of a player doesn't mean the rest of it isn't true. Let's instead view these as "Guidelines" and not "Hard Rule" a la Pirates of the Caribbean. To restrict people so much is damaging, especially considering the subjective nature of arguments and getting people to agree with them. That being said, can you give your thoughts on who you think is scum? You haven't been really doing that at all. Town's been doing fine so far. It's not like making a mistake day 1 mean town is fucked. We have a good atmosphere and people are taking stances and making arguments. That's better than almost all the town's I've been in where day 1 was spent discussing whether we should lynch inactives or not and then lynching an inactive player. This is definitely NOT the worst game you've ever played in. Hyperbolic statements don't help. I ain't going to write "I, chaoser, blah blah blah". I will however, proposition this: Amber[Light] has been playing lurker-ish I'll come back to the Irish issue once he's posted and responded to our questions to him. Anyway onto Amber. Amber is a vet player, and he generally posts a lot. Not just posts a lot, he also usually very active in calling people out and making FoS's on people he thinks is scummy. Except this game he hasn't. Most of his posts have been either asking or answer questions; in fact, out of his 5 total (game relevant) posts in this thread, he's pretty much only asked and answered questions in 3 of them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#426http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#427http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#439In the two posts where he actually tries to take a stance on someone (In this case Kurumi), he pretty much says the reason he's voting for kurumi is because he wants information. He never outright says that he's suspicous of kurumi, just that: Show nested quote +Chaoser has really been digging deep into Kurumi and hasn't been letting up against other players. I almost want to see Kurumi flip to see how much we can trust his analysis. and before, he questions where the Kurumi flip will lead: Show nested quote +Back to you Airblade... My question is do you think creating a chaoser vs/with kurumi vision is going to get us somewhere? Clearly he doesn't really support the Kurumi lynch but when questioned on if he actually believes the vote though, he responds to redtooth with: Show nested quote +He's using a lot of diversion tactics and getting really defensive to the point where he was analyzing players that were either targeting him or easy pins for inactivity. It seems like it's more pseudo-analysis than actual content. You know, posting just to post. Which seems like a throw-away reason. For that, I ask that Amber start to post more. His excuse that he's at work and so he can't do much is nulled by the fact that he generally posts a lot anyway as can be seen in insane 1, and insane 2. He hasn't contributed much to the discussion even though he's clearly caught up to speed and has been reading the thread. This same sentiment is also applied to GGQ. He gives the advice to DropBear: Show nested quote +There was no need for a PbP analysis here, you just needed to tell Lyter to post more and explain his vote You need to better explain your reasoning for voting Kurumi (Pretty much that he was acting like serejai aka trolling and so he's probably scum) and why you're not posting as much
For the record I lurked in Insane 2, and I resent signing up for that game altogether because of the absolute bullshit that went on the entire game. I never really play the same style in these games anyway. Would you rather me Bill Murray this thread up with bullshit? I can definitely find some spare time to do that.
Since you wanted to bring up Insane 1 I would definitely like to chat about that game. Though I can't really tell if I was active or lurking [I think at this point I was much more active in games] throughout Insane 1, I remember my strategy for that game. I wanted to be killed. I was given a really cool role that required me to die, the Zombie role. It took me 5 days to die before I could activate my ability, and to my surprise I managed to get a mafia hook line and sinker. See Insane 1 Day 5 post below:
[spoiler]On November 10 2010 08:46 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Day 5![[image loading]](http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1953/1268040328107.gif) Last night would be a night of mixed feelings. Amber[LighT] was making his way towards the late night grocery store when a crazed gunman lept up from behind him and shot him dead in the back. Amber[LighT] died a swift death. Infinitestory was in distress. He had a feeling mafia would be coming, so he called in the aid of Veldril. Veldril soon discovered a case of Murrayitis in infinitestory's body, which resulted in him immediately dropping all other activities and started to heal infinitestory. Suddenly, a man opened the door. "I already took care of your other buddy", he smiled. Neither Infinitestory or Veldril was quick enough to respond to the hail of bullets. Kitaman27 was watching on the rooftops of a suspect. He saw the suspect walking out, then doing something he had never seen anyone do before. He looked right at him. Two seconds later, a bullet came kitaman27's way, and he would never watch again. Ace was returning home after a successful night of infecting people when he saw a man he had seen before. "You took out our busdriver." "Yes, I did." Ace quickly went for his gun, but couldn't find it. The man had already grabbed his gun, and pointed it at Ace. "May you never spread this foul plague again.", were the last words as the man faded into obscurity. Amber[LighT] was pissed, real pissed. He never was a fan of dying and decided he didn't want to start now, so he crawled out of his grave and went for brainsthe person he thought had killed him. He entered RebirthOfLegend's house and celebrated his victory before once more returning to eternal darkness. Amber[LighT] the Zombie is now dead. Show nested quote +You are the Zombie! Though you are just a normal townie, death pisses you off in unusual ways. Every day, you may PM me the name of one player. Should you die that day or night, you will crawl out of your grave and hit that player. You may choose not to PM me a name in which case the last person you PMed will still be hit should you die. You may also leave a death message of no more than 100 characters. infinitestory the ADD Detective is now dead. Show nested quote +You are the ADD Detective! Once per night, oh wait is that a squirrel? You randomly walk into houses to ask people questions about their alignment. You don't get to choose who since you act on impulse, which makes one question your job choice to begin with. Veldril the Plague Doctor is now dead. Show nested quote +You are the Plague Doctor. During the night you can protect someone. If you protect someone they are cured of Murrayitis (if they have it), and a possible hit is prevented. However, if mafia hits the person you are protecting and they have Murrayitis, you both are killed because you are too busy to defend yourself. On the first night, you won't be able to protect anyone as you're just finishing the cure to Murrayitis. Note that if you use night actions when you are infected, the people you come into contact with will get Murrayitis too. Later added: If you protect someone and they have murrayitis and also get hit, both you and the person you protect die.kitaman27 the Watcher (-_-) is now dead. Show nested quote +You are the watcher! Every day, you may PM me the naem of one player. You will be informed if that player leaves his house and what kind of action he performed. RebirthOfLegend the Mafia Roleblocker is now dead. Show nested quote +You are the Mafia Roleblocker! Once per night, you may decide to roleblock one of the townies. Ace the Mafia Lab Rat is now dead. Show nested quote +You are the Lab Rat! You can infect a person with Murrayitis once per night. Any day or night actions by infected players will cause the players they target to be infected as well (excluding lynch votes). If no one has Murrayitis at any point after night 2, you die. Hello, this is the news today with Jasmine Insane, replacing Wacko Zacko due to a bad case of murrayitis. A man was seen preventing someone from entering a house. According to our sources, this man was later shot. More plague bearers have died today, and to the best of our knowledge, only three remain. Should the deadly plague ever reach a majority, insanity save us all. And now for Radio Loony with your host Glasse! The story of the day being his supposed third party. Unfortunately, the radio has gone quiet as of late due to his identity being revealed. It is now Day 5! You have 48 hours to vote. Remember that a double lynch is active, so you have to vote twice. Should everyone have voted earlier, I will close the votes earlier.
Was I lucky? Maybe. Oh wait no I wasn't.
On November 15 2010 01:23 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Awards!
Sniper award for suspecting most mafia members
This award goes to Amber[LighT]. The zombie that first targetted RebirthOfLegend on night 3. On night 5, he first targetted Ace, then switched to L, and finally settled on RebirthOfLegend again. Should he have had 3KP on night 5, 3 mafia would’ve been dead. Sick scumhunting skills.
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Okay okay so now that I've managed to get your attention I'm sure everyones next question is "well that's great and all but you've skipped the more important Insane mafia 2 where you lurked and were mafia. How does that make you any less scummy since you're apparently doing similar tactics?" First off read that thread. I took lurking to a new level in that game. You want to talk about sliding through the cracks for DAYS without being killed by mods, let alone the town, I'll say that was not one of my best games. But Chaoser, master detective, only investigated a couple of games.
I was mafia once before in a smaller game, Mini Mafia 7. I think only Jackal and Chaoser were in that game with me, but if you want to read that thread I was pretty active and worked really hard to get my team a win in just a couple of days. They both should know that too. We had a flawless victory.
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Why did I end up voting for Kurumi?
The majority was hung up over this Irish vs. Kurumi thing. We had a number of other "suspects" that were accumulating small numbers of votes. This poses a VERY dangerous situation where we have to deal with the votes thinned out between large numbers of suspects. That means we enter scenarios where 1-2 votes can actually make a difference.
When it came down to it Kurumi was leading in votes and creating a bandwagon at the last minute almost always end up in a disappointing lynch, so lets go with the person the town believes is not going to be beneficial to us later for analysis. How often do we manage to lynch a mafia on the first day? Chaoser, you've been in almost as many games as me [since the old days in like 08/09 and how often have you seen that happen? Don't get hung up on the idea that "oh my god these people voted for Kurumi and he flipped green FoS ON ALL OF THEM!!!!!!!!1111one"
The town has been given so much information. We know what players stuck to their guns, what players switched, as well as what players felt threatened by others during the day. Redtooth, since the beginning of the game I've really taken a lot of your analysis seriously and I've had similar views throughout the whole game up to this point. I however don't think imposing rules is going to help us. The town is going to crumble. You want to add red tape to the game to force analysis? The quality is going to decrease significantly. I've never seen this done in a game, and I really don't understand why you're coming to the conclusion that we're playing so miserably. I think we're playing pretty good. We had some good Day 1 discussion and we had a lot of players throwing out some great analysis. We didn't sit around all day talking about roles. This is one of the more impressive towns in any game of TL mafia I've played, especially with so many newbies.
I have to agree with another post I found a bit amusing... [if you can't tell I'm still on page 42 so I'm catching up].
On May 06 2011 23:18 sandroba wrote:
The list argument is pretty dumb. If I were mafia I would NEVER want to see kurumi dead. He was basically doing mafia's job for them. He was spaming the thread, creating a lot of confusion and posting a lot of nonsense. There is no way in hell you could know for sure kurumi was town unless you were mafia. My suspicions are on the people who came to his defensess for no reason, because he was "obvtown". Seriously, you guys must be on a whole other level, because calling kurumi obvtown is like calling a rape a beautiful act between two people in love. Give me a break.
I mean I think sandroba is pretty spot on with this post. If I were mafia I would have done whatever I could have to keep him around. His play was textbook scummy. Him and Irish are mimicking each other and they have a scent of scum on them. Does this make either of them mafia? No. Does this mean that we shouldn't pursue them? No. For Day 1 the most important thing was to discover who would want to keep him around and what benefits the town and mafia would have by keeping him alive. If he was left alive he would have been a target for days. This happens all the time. Ask L about being pinned down. Ace did it to him in like every game for a year straight and L would always be pro-town in the end. Irish or Chaoser should be checked tonight if the detective didn't already get this memo.
Once day hits I'm going to post a bit more on the Kurumi aftermath. I just want everyone to be aware that we should not be in panic mode at this point. Mafia wants us to be fighting, trust me it's so easy when mafia can just sit back and relax while the town self-destructs. That lynch is going to compound over the next few days.
Once again I apologize for the novel post. I'm still 3-4 pages behind so I will be posting more if I find some good posts.
I'm also openly against the Redtooth plan, if that's still being discussed.[/quote]
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God that post was messy I'm really sorry for not previewing 
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Imo, veterans are justified in voting Kurumi. Because of what Amber just posted.
Others, not so much.
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Alright then. A little free time.
Chaoser/Redtooth - 1 of them is scum. Would be worth a lynch of Chaoser and if he does flip green vig Redtooth. I'm leaning more towards Chaoser being the scummy one.
sandroba - scum
GGQ - scum
Cthsazsa - scum
Eternalmisfit - scum
Chaos 13/ Irish Punk 13 - Leaning much more towards Irish. He's a very active player. Now absent.
That's the way I see it at the moment.
Sorry if I didn't submit the correct form. I couldn't find a "Tunneling Request" form
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On May 07 2011 08:08 Kenpachi wrote:
Imo, veterans are justified in voting Kurumi. Because of what Amber just posted.
Others, not so much.
I'm not a fan of lynching people because they appear wierd or different or stupid. But I can understand it. I do guarantee you that at least 4 on his lynch were scum. Hell maybe more.
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Jackal, would you care to provide reasoning of why you think I'm scum? I would love to read your analysis on me.
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On May 07 2011 08:23 sandroba wrote:
Jackal, would you care to provide reasoning of why you think I'm scum? I would love to read your analysis on me.
Sure. You'll have to wait though. I'm leaving shortly.
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EPT
