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On January 04 2009 10:35 Hazz wrote:
many starcraft players hate everything about wc3 because they are bitter it had such an international scene when in brood war its non existant
That is because Blizzard failed with the ladder. And the foreign scene is basically Europe, US man (maybe there is more, if there is please enlighten me)
Even though iccup and pgt are fun and rule, there is one key thing that makes them almost not legitamite.
THEY ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY BLIZZARD! THAT MEANS THEY WILL NOT RECOGNIZE THE PLAYERS THAT HAVE ACHIEVED A+ BECAUSE THEY WERE PLAYING ON PRIVATE SERVERS!
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Sweden33719 Posts
Who cares about that  ? They don't have any tournaments you have to qualify for (the only Blizzard tournaments for SC are invite ones) so it doesn't matter wether Blizzard recognizes them as anything?
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I know, but I think it would be better if Blizzard recognizes these and hosts it on battlenet.
Anyway this thread is getting off topic.
So I think the fog of war should be completely black for un explored areas of the map. Makes it more interesting to play and watch!
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how is it a cheat sheet? It's not like it's secret information or anything, it's only black so we know what we have and haven't explored. We know (or should know, if we have played/viewed the map) what's there, we're not learning anything new. Saying that knowing where things are in the black is a skill is just artificial, it's not like you have to be good at starcraft to look at a screenie or have played the map before.
Furthermore, knowing where expos and things are does not mean that you know the map.It just means that you are able to physically play it. The map does not tell you how the game will play out with different matchups, it does not tell you what strategies will and will not work.
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On January 04 2009 13:32 virLudens wrote:
how is it a cheat sheet? It's not like it's secret information or anything, it's only black so we know what we have and haven't explored. We know (or should know, if we have played/viewed the map) what's there, we're not learning anything new. Saying that knowing where things are in the black is a skill is just artificial, it's not like you have to be good at starcraft to look at a screenie or have played the map before.
Furthermore, knowing where expos and things are does not mean that you know the map.It just means that you are able to physically play it. The map does not tell you how the game will play out with different matchups, it does not tell you what strategies will and will not work.
Is it really, truly, earnestly, with all candor, THAT hard to play with shroud of darkness? I have trouble accepting that people have trouble with it because I have none whatsoever. If it's really that hard to physically play it because of it... I really don't know what to say about your skill level/intelligence
EDIT: Oh that's right, non-existant
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the point is not that shroud of darkness is difficult (it's not) it's that it doesn't add anything to the games. Removing it would only make things better for the game as a whole. People would actually play maps that are not python. There's no real argument for keeping it other than aesthetics (make it a toggle) and the occasional clicking your scout to the wrong part of the map (seriously guys, that's not skill)
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On January 04 2009 12:59 Dalroti wrote:
I know, but I think it would be better if Blizzard recognizes these and hosts it on battlenet.
Anyway this thread is getting off topic.
So I think the fog of war should be completely black for un explored areas of the map. Makes it more interesting to play and watch!
No, i think it would be better for observers, specially on a commentated game, as they could actually provide better input on the map while not having to point at a completely black screen.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On January 04 2009 14:01 virLudens wrote:
the point is not that shroud of darkness is difficult (it's not) it's that it doesn't add anything to the games. Removing it would only make things better for the game as a whole. People would actually play maps that are not python. There's no real argument for keeping it other than aesthetics (make it a toggle) and the occasional clicking your scout to the wrong part of the map (seriously guys, that's not skill)
Couldn't agree more.
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On January 04 2009 09:49 Not_Computer wrote:
Also for maze maps... not much of a (8)Labyrinth if you know how to get around.
who wants to play maps like that anyway
the pathing is horrendous
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I think it's a great idea to remove it, it will really help people grasp maps a bit better when starting off.
I do think, however, that it should be an option in the map editor, that way all of those awesome UMS maps can still have some mystique with the shroud (like UMS RPG's).
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I dont play that much BW these days. When I do install it and play, there are always a bunch of maps out that ive never played or have very little experience with. So when I play one of those maps, Im stuck asking my opponent where abouts the start locations are or where my natural is.
As a result, there are only about 3-4 maps Im comfortable playing on iccup. Many people will have the same problem as me and it contributes to why people generally do not play different maps from the norm.
Being able to see the map layout means that maps made by amature mapmakers stand a chance at becoming popular, people will be more willing to play on maps other than the ones they always play.
I Do support a toggle however. Doesnt sound too hard to implement, and the black might become handy in UMS or to anyone who wants to play the original way. Also its a LOT clearer for spectators when there is black over the areas that havent been looked at yet.
As for knowing start locations in 4 player maps, NO. That lack of knowledge of where your opponent starts has a big impact on strategy. You might as well just only have 2 player maps.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
imo Blackness is better if for no reason other than...
a) making cool shapes in the blackness with probe (pusans M anyone?)
b) knowing where you've scouted/where you haven't (semi useful for nonprogamers)
c) favors those who have studied the map before hand
No blackness pretty much removes all three things which is kinda  makes b harder (T_T for me, progamers will be fine) and makes c redundant
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On January 04 2009 17:55 Plexa wrote:imo Blackness is better if for no reason other than... a) making cool shapes in the blackness with probe (pusans M anyone?) b) knowing where you've scouted/where you haven't (semi useful for nonprogamers) c) favors those who have studied the map before hand No blackness pretty much removes all three things which is kinda makes b harder (T_T for me, progamers will be fine) and makes c redundant
I don't know if this has been brought up, but b seems like a good point to me.
But, tbh, it's really not that big of a deal whether you've scouted an area unless we are talking about the first five minutes of the game (then you should really know!).
Just because there isn't a hatch at 3:00 the first time you scanned doesn't mean you shouldn't scan it again in 2 minutes
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c) is the most stupid thing i've ever read from you plexa ~~ imo
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b) You can see where you've scouted and where you haven't
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On January 04 2009 13:53 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 13:32 virLudens wrote:
how is it a cheat sheet? It's not like it's secret information or anything, it's only black so we know what we have and haven't explored. We know (or should know, if we have played/viewed the map) what's there, we're not learning anything new. Saying that knowing where things are in the black is a skill is just artificial, it's not like you have to be good at starcraft to look at a screenie or have played the map before.
Furthermore, knowing where expos and things are does not mean that you know the map.It just means that you are able to physically play it. The map does not tell you how the game will play out with different matchups, it does not tell you what strategies will and will not work. Is it really, truly, earnestly, with all candor, THAT hard to play with shroud of darkness? I have trouble accepting that people have trouble with it because I have none whatsoever. If it's really that hard to physically play it because of it... I really don't know what to say about your skill level/intelligence EDIT: Oh that's right, non-existant
Why can't we have more posters like you? It would be great if everyone was a flaming idiot and against everything that has absolutely no negative sides. Just imagine!
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On January 04 2009 17:55 Plexa wrote:imo Blackness is better if for no reason other than... a) making cool shapes in the blackness with probe (pusans M anyone?) b) knowing where you've scouted/where you haven't (semi useful for nonprogamers) c) favors those who have studied the map before hand No blackness pretty much removes all three things which is kinda makes b harder (T_T for me, progamers will be fine) and makes c redundant
a) meh.
b) seems to me that you can see where you've scouted and where you've not.
also, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to make it toggable.
c) you have a point here but I think the benefits, as described by Fen, far outweighs this negative.
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Allowing new players to see the map before exploring it is going to help them a lot, the difference it's going to make in pro games is a lot smaller compared to the downside for new players :/.
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On January 04 2009 17:55 Plexa wrote:imo Blackness is better if for no reason other than... a) making cool shapes in the blackness with probe (pusans M anyone?) b) knowing where you've scouted/where you haven't (semi useful for nonprogamers) c) favors those who have studied the map before hand No blackness pretty much removes all three things which is kinda makes b harder (T_T for me, progamers will be fine) and makes c redundant
b) not really true; see the minimap I posted (the one in the OP):
It's actually quite easy to see where you've scouted before (explored fog is much lighter than unexplored fog). Even on the main screen, its quite easy to see the difference between the dark fog and the light fog; unless you are incapable of adapting, within a few days it will be second nature to know that you've never been in the black fog and anything could be there.
c) doesn't affect the pro-scene so doesn't matter to me as a viewer. As a player, I plan on playing most of my games against people who have studied or at least played the map beforehand. I don't want all my wins to be against terrible players, thats bad for me and bad for them. Its accepted they will be out there though, so I'd rather they at least have that than go in blind because the person who studies the map will still have a lot more benefit than the person who can see where the expansions are on his minimap.
but a)... hmm thats hard to refute. Down with variable fog shading, up with shroud?
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On January 04 2009 17:43 Fen wrote:
I dont play that much BW these days. When I do install it and play, there are always a bunch of maps out that ive never played or have very little experience with. So when I play one of those maps, Im stuck asking my opponent where abouts the start locations are or where my natural is.
As a result, there are only about 3-4 maps Im comfortable playing on iccup. Many people will have the same problem as me and it contributes to why people generally do not play different maps from the norm.
This i never understood. Players who refuse to play on different maps because they don't know em. To me, new maps are always interesting, especially when both players, play it for the first time.
Then it's a explore and adapt kind of thing. Maps are such a vital part of this game that you seriously cut of a great portion of fun by playing the same map over and over again. There's just so much more to it. Like UMS, you just hop in a game and learn by doing.
We used to have internal tourneys in my clan with all new maps and those were usualy the best games we ever had. Sure you talked about iccup up there, but still.
But, if it helps people to break out of their little safe zone, give them vision.
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