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On April 26 2011 12:32 Ace wrote:BC how much was Ver involved? His post showed pretty much little involvement. I guess Incog can be banned though  This is almost better than an actual game of Mafia!
As far as I know, Ver was as involved as his post showed. Ver was technically involved in balancing the game because he reminded me why I don't like trackers and watchers. I think (I'm not 100% sure - we both lost our IM chats to reformats in the past month) he saw a draft setup we had, but I can tell from my PM conversation with BrownBear that the setup was changed after I talked with Ver (among other things, there were no elected players or assassins). That IM conversation was on March 9 (exactly one month before the game started). Ver swears he doesn't remember it and I don't see any reason not to give him the benefit of the doubt on that at least.
Other than that conversation, Flamewheel, Incognito, and Ver are all saying that Ver did what his post showed.
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All 3 have also apologized to me personally, so the "they don't show remorse" argument doesn't really hold water as much anymore. None of them were intentionally trying to break the game.
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On April 26 2011 13:05 BrownBear wrote:
All 3 have also apologized to me personally, so the "they don't show remorse" argument doesn't really hold water as much anymore. None of them were intentionally trying to break the game.
You are only one of many they have to apologize to. Apologizing to you is cool, but they did it behind closed doors. They have yet to apologize to the coaches, the players, or even admit publically they did wrong. As I said, we retroactively perma banned a player in the way of showtime! for playing against the spirit of the game.
More Minerals was also banned retroactively I believe for going against the spirit of the game. Realistically if we have done it in the past, we should be doing so here. Letting vets get away with breaches like this sets a terrible precident.
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On April 26 2011 13:08 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
More Minerals was also banned retroactively I believe for going against the spirit of the game.
More_minerals was banned retroactively for signing up for Mafia 5 with 2 accounts.
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Canada7170 Posts
On April 25 2011 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 07:35 BrownBear wrote:
Ok, I'll stop posting and let other people, but I'd like to put forth this proposed addendum to the official Mafia OP:
On Smurfing and IRL connections.
Smurfing (is/is not) allowed in this game. If smurfing is allowed, you MUST PM the host of the game before roles are given out with the identity of your smurf, and asking if it is acceptable to do so. The host reserves the right to allow or deny your smurf, and whether or not the identity shall be made public.
In addition, if you and your roommate/family member/friend are both signed up for this game, please PM the host and inform them that you know another player in the game IRL. This is something I have a problem with. When I smurf, I won't tell anyone. I would want to use a smurf as many times as I can, not going through the trouble of making smurfs on multiple occasions. Smurfs should NOT have to PM the host.
Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts. I don't want to derail on this note though.
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On April 26 2011 13:22 mikeymoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On April 25 2011 07:35 BrownBear wrote:
Ok, I'll stop posting and let other people, but I'd like to put forth this proposed addendum to the official Mafia OP:
On Smurfing and IRL connections.
Smurfing (is/is not) allowed in this game. If smurfing is allowed, you MUST PM the host of the game before roles are given out with the identity of your smurf, and asking if it is acceptable to do so. The host reserves the right to allow or deny your smurf, and whether or not the identity shall be made public.
In addition, if you and your roommate/family member/friend are both signed up for this game, please PM the host and inform them that you know another player in the game IRL. This is something I have a problem with. When I smurf, I won't tell anyone. I would want to use a smurf as many times as I can, not going through the trouble of making smurfs on multiple occasions. Smurfs should NOT have to PM the host. Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts. I don't want to derail on this note though.
Wow I actually didn't know this was a TL rule. I thought it was just a mafia rule that was bent a little from time to time. Thanks. I'll add it to the model OP.
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Canada7170 Posts
We made an exception for that very first smurf mafia game. Everyone involved had to PM Plexa. There's been all sorts of confusion when someone forgets to log off their smurf and proceeds to make a bad post in the normal forums. This way, they can appeal to the mod in question and the host can vouch for them.
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oh so you're too good to play with us now that you've got a hamma eh mikeymoo?
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On April 26 2011 13:35 mikeymoo wrote:
We made an exception for that very first smurf mafia game. Everyone involved had to PM Plexa. There's been all sorts of confusion when someone forgets to log off their smurf and proceeds to make a bad post in the normal forums. This way, they can appeal to the mod in question and the host can vouch for them.
Yes I remember that there were problems with the staff for that game. I just didn't think about people forgetting to log off and posting on normal TL. Oh well enough derailing. If you want to keep talking about this, the model OP thread or PM is probably better. Let me know if you want me to reword the rule.
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Anyways, I think I'll compile everything tomorrow evening. If there's anything you want to say, speak your piece before then.
EDIT: I have apparently misjudged the situation. I'll leave this open to discussion until at least Thursday sometime, Friday if I'm too tired to deal with this after my exam.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Mafia jargon is interesting. Before this situation, TL search tells me the phrase... "spirit of the game" was used by CubEDin, refuting my previous belief that it randomly spawned as a catchphrase for this thread. And frankly, I still just don't like the "spirit of the game" term. Also, this thread is just like a Mafia thread, for all the good and bad reasons.
Random tangents aside, I should probably actually say something of worth. First and foremost, let me apologize to all involved in the past game, with specificity given to the co-host (having already talked to BrownBear), coaches, and members of the Mafia. Regardless of whether or not the roots of this whole debacle are acceptable, the fact remains that I caused the hosts and players all sorts of trouble. And for that, allow me to offer my sincerest apologies. Of course, if repentance were the cure for problems, the world wouldn't be in such a state right now.
BloodyC0bbler brings up an interesting and salient point, that of TL Mafia having its precedence in retroactively punishing through rule adjustments. Last night, I was inclined to agree with RebirthOfLeGenD's point on not punishing because there wasn't a specific rule or set of rules dedicated to this, though I don't really mind whatever is thrown at me. Be it a ban, warning, or even the proverbial "slap on the wrist", something material should come of this, through the normal procedure of voting in the ban list thread. In no way should I be exempted from punishment, since I inherently place very little value in the words that comprise "I'm sorry"--it in itself is an empty phrase.
BrownBear sums it up perfectly for me. There were no rules broken. Was the "spirit of the game" broken? That depends on what the bloody phrase actually means. (On a random sidenote, if you google the phrase... "Demands good sportsmanship, kindly feeling, and honorable conduct." Hmm...) I am not directly sorry about the actual act of initiating the account sharing--I am sorry for the outcome that it caused, which stems from the origin. It's a weird train of thought.
I disagree with Ver and Incognito (to a lesser degree) taking the bans though. As already delineated by others in thread, Ver's activity was limited to one post and around 40 hours of play. I don't want to speak for Incognito conclusively now, but at this point I don't think he will care too much about taking the ban, seeing as he'll be taking an extended leave of absence from this subforum (and teamliquid in general, since I think this is the only part he frequents).
Smurfing exists to serve its purpose. I would not get rid of it.
In this thread, there are other things, issues, and people I would kind of like to address, but this is not the time or place.
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So now Incognito is leaving? Jeez you guys really had to take it this far?
Sure the account sharing was bad but I don't think they had the intention of cheating to screw up the game. I mean seriously of all games to cheat in - why that one?
Where is the motive here? This could just be a case of coaching gone too far.
And now you guys made flamewheel claim he's scum.
God I hope that is a fake claim cuz if we mislynch we're in LYLO with Qatol as Mayor.
I don't need to tell you how that ends now do I?
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I don´t see how the intention matters, they should have known it was a bad move to accountshare without telling the host.
Neither do I see the point in dropping it because no rules were broken. The only reason there isn´t a rule about accountsharing on smurf accounts is that this is the first time. PMing from a smurfaccount to discuss a game and find out someones identity is probably not forbidden in the rules, but that doesn´t mean it´s okay to do it.
EDIT: Okay, perhaps a bad example since smurfing is forbidden too, but my point is that the rules are only a few of the things that you shouldn´t do.
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I would have expected better judgment from people who have been here so long and are rather pillars of the TLMafia community.
People also do dumb shit without thinking ahead sometimes and I expect that too, so whatever.
Account sharing is deceitful and unfair to the other players in the game who are playing an account with only one person's mental and temporal resources. I do not think it should be allowed in the future, but don't agree with retroactive banning as the solution to this particular incident.
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It looks like Flamewheel will be the next mod along with Qatol. The discussion was in the banlist thread.
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On May 09 2011 17:52 Forumite wrote:
It looks like Flamewheel will be the next mod along with Qatol. The discussion was in the banlist thread.
If you have a problem with it, please discuss it there, not here. Also, we are not mods.
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Your humility will be your undoing!
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United States22154 Posts
Am I the only one that feels like that line is incomplete?
I think what it said before Qatol edited it was
Also, we are not mods, we are more like GODS!
I also imagine he was munching on fresh human hearts while making this proclamation.
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Ok, so I hate to be a drama queen, but I am done with tl mafia and that decision is based entirely on the way this situation was handled (and the fallout from it which has now carried into numerous threads/games). I didn't post in this thread because every argument I felt like making was made by someone else. The responses I have gotten on irc when attempting to discuss this were gems such as "Calm down" or "Shit happens"...as if that solves the problem. This subforum is run by an ingroup and whenever something goes against what they want they squash it and the majority of you circle-jerk about how awesome they are.
I liked quite a few of you, but I'm done with mafia.
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On May 11 2011 06:12 Lemonwalrus wrote:
Ok, so I hate to be a drama queen, but I am done with tl mafia and that decision is based entirely on the way this situation was handled (and the fallout from it which has now carried into numerous threads/games). I didn't post in this thread because every argument I felt like making was made by someone else. The responses I have gotten on irc when attempting to discuss this were gems such as "Calm down" or "Shit happens"...as if that solves the problem. This subforum is run by an ingroup and whenever something goes against what they want they squash it and the majority of you circle-jerk about how awesome they are.
I liked quite a few of you, but I'm done with mafia.
Ditto.
I would have added a few F bombs.
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EPT
