On December 12 2012 09:06 Emon_ wrote: Seeing as SC2 is starting to announce the players in advance once again - knowing that it led to match fixing last time makes me wonder if this is a big deal anymore.
SC2 had an instance of match-fixing in an ICCUP tournament (back before ICCUP's SC2 guys split off into ESV), and both players (Coca and Byun) got something like an 8-month ban from all tournaments, on the basis that they actually made arraignments to fix the match during the streamed match, and were thus clearly too stupid to be fixing normally. It completely derailed Coca's career, because he got kicked out of his team house for the whole period, and came back a shadow of his former self. (Byun kinda recovered).
I think, though, the silver lining is that an aggressive response to even a hint of match fixing shows that's there's not a systemic rot. If, for instance, two people match fix and get kicked out right away, it could be better long-term for BW than if this came out after it was systemic. Savior match-fixing hurt the fans, but it was the fact that every other A-teamer was corrupt that killed BW. Both by casting a shadow over the whole industry and by eliminating the entire next generation who "should've" supplanted TBLS.
A match fixing scandal didn't kill SC2 (though LoL might), and the reason for that was because it was small and reacted to super-aggressively. I think this is a good chance for Sonic to prove he's not KeSPA, and to take aggressive action against the slightest hint of match-fixing, and thus maintain most of the luster of the SSL.
It would suck so hard to see the same fucking websites kill Korean BW twice.
Nice thing about foreign BW: There's zero incentive to match-fix, because there's so little money involved.
On December 12 2012 08:49 PiPoGevy wrote: Nooo, have u seen the crowd in OSL when it comes to Star2, its dead, this was my new life
Have you seen the crowd in anything that's not the OSL? sc2 is only not very popular in korea.
Really depends on how you define "not popular". SC2 is starting to regularly get trounced by LoL in the ratings, in part because of a long period of "Turtle into mass infestor" leading to incredibly boring games (and PvZ being entirely broken and awful). Blizz has been making a lot of semi-competent decisions with HotS, but it might be too little too late. If SC2 doesn't see its viewership start climbing again soon, it'll probably go under.
That's a very good point. It took almost ten years for the Brood War metagame to stagnate into something so incredibly balanced. It took SC2 less than two years to stagnate into a Zerg-favoured metagame.
On December 12 2012 11:13 Ribbon wrote: Really depends on how you define "not popular". SC2 is starting to regularly get trounced by LoL in the ratings, in part because of a long period of "Turtle into mass infestor" leading to incredibly boring games (and PvZ being entirely broken and awful). Blizz has been making a lot of semi-competent decisions with HotS, but it might be too little too late. If SC2 doesn't see its viewership start climbing again soon, it'll probably go under.
It'l go back up with hots and lotv. Not only that but the viewership is actually rising. It's just not going up as fast as LoL.
On December 12 2012 09:06 Emon_ wrote: Seeing as SC2 is starting to announce the players in advance once again - knowing that it led to match fixing last time makes me wonder if this is a big deal anymore.
SC2 had an instance of match-fixing in an ICCUP tournament (back before ICCUP's SC2 guys split off into ESV), and both players (Coca and Byun) got something like an 8-month ban from all tournaments, on the basis that they actually made arraignments to fix the match during the streamed match, and were thus clearly too stupid to be fixing normally. It completely derailed Coca's career, because he got kicked out of his team house for the whole period, and came back a shadow of his former self. (Byun kinda recovered).
I think, though, the silver lining is that an aggressive response to even a hint of match fixing shows that's there's not a systemic rot. If, for instance, two people match fix and get kicked out right away, it could be better long-term for BW than if this came out after it was systemic. Savior match-fixing hurt the fans, but it was the fact that every other A-teamer was corrupt that killed BW. Both by casting a shadow over the whole industry and by eliminating the entire next generation who "should've" supplanted TBLS.
A match fixing scandal didn't kill SC2 (though LoL might), and the reason for that was because it was small and reacted to super-aggressively. I think this is a good chance for Sonic to prove he's not KeSPA, and to take aggressive action against the slightest hint of match-fixing, and thus maintain most of the luster of the SSL.
It would suck so hard to see the same fucking websites kill Korean BW twice.
Nice thing about foreign BW: There's zero incentive to match-fix, because there's so little money involved.
On December 12 2012 08:49 PiPoGevy wrote: Nooo, have u seen the crowd in OSL when it comes to Star2, its dead, this was my new life
Have you seen the crowd in anything that's not the OSL? sc2 is only not very popular in korea.
Really depends on how you define "not popular". SC2 is starting to regularly get trounced by LoL in the ratings, in part because of a long period of "Turtle into mass infestor" leading to incredibly boring games (and PvZ being entirely broken and awful). Blizz has been making a lot of semi-competent decisions with HotS, but it might be too little too late. If SC2 doesn't see its viewership start climbing again soon, it'll probably go under.
That's silly.
GOM is doing higher numbers than last year, NASL is confirmed for two more seasons, IPL5 is confirmed for four seasons in 2013, and while LoL is beating SC2, it doesn't mean that it's going to die. It's laughable that because it isn't as big as LoL that it means it's going to die. That's like if someone came up to me and told me that the NBA or MLB is going to go under because the NFL gets 10x the viewership. Against Dota2, SC2 is still bigger viewer wise if you don't count The International that got a huge bump due to the Valve hype.
I'm fine admitting that SC2 is smaller than LoL, but the idea that it's going to go under is ridiculous. SC2 is doing waaaaaaaaay better outside of Korea than Brood War ever did. Just because it isn't getting millions of viewers means it is going to die. If every e-sport had to get LoL numbers or it would go under, then e-sports would literally be League of Legends and everything else would be gone.
Also comparing Coca-Byun to the BW match fixing or this is hilarious. Byun and Coca were just being dumb friends who didn't know what they were doing. Coca's career would have been fine, but Slayers went under and was doing terribly the last few months of their existence. Byun made a Code S semifinals since his return from suspension and is doing just fine.
On December 12 2012 09:25 Anomarad wrote: Is he not getting sponsors because of the match fixing? His last SSL was so successful I don't get why there wouldn't be any sponsors. :/
Maybe he'll change his mind after SSL8.
Sponsors fled from BW after He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named happened. And now, if it seems like to companies without a current stake in eSports that Brood War is nothing but a hive of match fixers - with a second scandal in three years - what incentive is there for them to sponsor it?
I find it hard to believe the entire professional scene lost sponsors over eleven match fixers. Wouldn't the stagnation of the metagame along with SC2's uncertain future in Korea and LoL's rise to prominence have spurred a sponsorship exodus?
It was a combination of the lawsuit and the matchfixing scandal. LoL had nothing to do with it - LoL didn't start to rise in Korea until after the Jin Air OSL. By the time the next season of Proleague started, we'd already lost five pro-gaming sponsors and four teams, one of which was on life support.
It's like the commentators in this video say. Progaming was marketed as a pure sport of love and passion by the companies sponsoring it. And the match-fixing scandal destroyed that entire marketing image.
On December 12 2012 09:25 Anomarad wrote: Is he not getting sponsors because of the match fixing? His last SSL was so successful I don't get why there wouldn't be any sponsors. :/
Maybe he'll change his mind after SSL8.
Sponsors fled from BW after He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named happened. And now, if it seems like to companies without a current stake in eSports that Brood War is nothing but a hive of match fixers - with a second scandal in three years - what incentive is there for them to sponsor it?
I find it hard to believe the entire professional scene lost sponsors over eleven match fixers. Wouldn't the stagnation of the metagame along with SC2's uncertain future in Korea and LoL's rise to prominence have spurred a sponsorship exodus?
Why did the metagame get stagnant in the first place?
The generation that was supposed to replace TBLS never came, because they were match-fixing.
Also, Proleague was in a state of collapse long before LoL came out in Korea (a collapse the SC2 switch hasn't helped with, with Air Force ACE going out, and Team 8 still sponsorless and losing players to foreign teams)
On December 12 2012 09:06 Emon_ wrote: Seeing as SC2 is starting to announce the players in advance once again - knowing that it led to match fixing last time makes me wonder if this is a big deal anymore.
SC2 had an instance of match-fixing in an ICCUP tournament (back before ICCUP's SC2 guys split off into ESV), and both players (Coca and Byun) got something like an 8-month ban from all tournaments, on the basis that they actually made arraignments to fix the match during the streamed match, and were thus clearly too stupid to be fixing normally. It completely derailed Coca's career, because he got kicked out of his team house for the whole period, and came back a shadow of his former self. (Byun kinda recovered).
I think, though, the silver lining is that an aggressive response to even a hint of match fixing shows that's there's not a systemic rot. If, for instance, two people match fix and get kicked out right away, it could be better long-term for BW than if this came out after it was systemic. Savior match-fixing hurt the fans, but it was the fact that every other A-teamer was corrupt that killed BW. Both by casting a shadow over the whole industry and by eliminating the entire next generation who "should've" supplanted TBLS.
A match fixing scandal didn't kill SC2 (though LoL might), and the reason for that was because it was small and reacted to super-aggressively. I think this is a good chance for Sonic to prove he's not KeSPA, and to take aggressive action against the slightest hint of match-fixing, and thus maintain most of the luster of the SSL.
It would suck so hard to see the same fucking websites kill Korean BW twice.
Nice thing about foreign BW: There's zero incentive to match-fix, because there's so little money involved.
On December 12 2012 11:12 Gebus wrote:
On December 12 2012 08:49 PiPoGevy wrote: Nooo, have u seen the crowd in OSL when it comes to Star2, its dead, this was my new life
Have you seen the crowd in anything that's not the OSL? sc2 is only not very popular in korea.
Really depends on how you define "not popular". SC2 is starting to regularly get trounced by LoL in the ratings, in part because of a long period of "Turtle into mass infestor" leading to incredibly boring games (and PvZ being entirely broken and awful). Blizz has been making a lot of semi-competent decisions with HotS, but it might be too little too late. If SC2 doesn't see its viewership start climbing again soon, it'll probably go under.
That's silly.
GOM is doing higher numbers than last year, NASL is confirmed for two more seasons, IPL5 is confirmed for four seasons in 2013, and while LoL is beating SC2, it doesn't mean that it's going to die. It's laughable that because it isn't as big as LoL that it means it's going to die. That's like if someone came up to me and told me that the NBA or MLB is going to go under because the NFL gets 10x the viewership. Against Dota2, SC2 is still bigger viewer wise if you don't count The International that got a huge bump due to the Valve hype.
But it's a stagnant number. The rampant growth has stopped.
It's certainly possible HotS boosts the numbers. And it's certainly possible that LoL actually saves SC2, because attaching an SC2 tournament to an LoL tournament is cheaper than doing an SC2 tournament as a standalone (for a long time, I hoped BW could leech of SC2 that way and survive in some form. It still theoretically could, even if it seems unlikely now). But no one's making money in SC2 now, and the growth that made them think they'd make money later has stopped. It's certainly not dooooooommmed. HotS is pretty clearly a better game than WoL at this point, and that's a widespread opinion, so HotS can inject some life and maybe....
We're getting off topic, though. I was comparing a match-fixing scandal in another game to this one in the SSL to indicate that a scandal like this doesn't have to be world-ending, if it's a small one (and we don't know the scale yet).
Also comparing Coca-Byun to the BW match fixing or this is hilarious.
I'm not. I'm comparing it to the SSL match-fixing, and making a comparison. If it was two idiots, then the SSL can probably recover (presuming Sonic doesn't get disillusioned). If multiple matches were fixed, though, then yeah. That's super bad.
The best outcome, of course, is that there's no match-fixing at all and it's a false rumor. Then everything's cool, and Sonic got to make a big public show of "I'm not even slightly okay with match-fixing!!", which could help.
On December 12 2012 09:06 Emon_ wrote: Seeing as SC2 is starting to announce the players in advance once again - knowing that it led to match fixing last time makes me wonder if this is a big deal anymore.
SC2 had an instance of match-fixing in an ICCUP tournament (back before ICCUP's SC2 guys split off into ESV), and both players (Coca and Byun) got something like an 8-month ban from all tournaments, on the basis that they actually made arraignments to fix the match during the streamed match, and were thus clearly too stupid to be fixing normally. It completely derailed Coca's career, because he got kicked out of his team house for the whole period, and came back a shadow of his former self. (Byun kinda recovered).
I think, though, the silver lining is that an aggressive response to even a hint of match fixing shows that's there's not a systemic rot. If, for instance, two people match fix and get kicked out right away, it could be better long-term for BW than if this came out after it was systemic. Savior match-fixing hurt the fans, but it was the fact that every other A-teamer was corrupt that killed BW. Both by casting a shadow over the whole industry and by eliminating the entire next generation who "should've" supplanted TBLS.
A match fixing scandal didn't kill SC2 (though LoL might), and the reason for that was because it was small and reacted to super-aggressively. I think this is a good chance for Sonic to prove he's not KeSPA, and to take aggressive action against the slightest hint of match-fixing, and thus maintain most of the luster of the SSL.
It would suck so hard to see the same fucking websites kill Korean BW twice.
Nice thing about foreign BW: There's zero incentive to match-fix, because there's so little money involved.
On December 12 2012 11:12 Gebus wrote:
On December 12 2012 08:49 PiPoGevy wrote: Nooo, have u seen the crowd in OSL when it comes to Star2, its dead, this was my new life
Have you seen the crowd in anything that's not the OSL? sc2 is only not very popular in korea.
Really depends on how you define "not popular". SC2 is starting to regularly get trounced by LoL in the ratings, in part because of a long period of "Turtle into mass infestor" leading to incredibly boring games (and PvZ being entirely broken and awful). Blizz has been making a lot of semi-competent decisions with HotS, but it might be too little too late. If SC2 doesn't see its viewership start climbing again soon, it'll probably go under.
That's silly.
GOM is doing higher numbers than last year, NASL is confirmed for two more seasons, IPL5 is confirmed for four seasons in 2013, and while LoL is beating SC2, it doesn't mean that it's going to die. It's laughable that because it isn't as big as LoL that it means it's going to die. That's like if someone came up to me and told me that the NBA or MLB is going to go under because the NFL gets 10x the viewership. Against Dota2, SC2 is still bigger viewer wise if you don't count The International that got a huge bump due to the Valve hype.
I'm fine admitting that SC2 is smaller than LoL, but the idea that it's going to go under is ridiculous. SC2 is doing waaaaaaaaay better outside of Korea than Brood War ever did. Just because it isn't getting millions of viewers means it is going to die. If every e-sport had to get LoL numbers or it would go under, then e-sports would literally be League of Legends and everything else would be gone.
Also comparing Coca-Byun to the BW match fixing or this is hilarious. Byun and Coca were just being dumb friends who didn't know what they were doing. Coca's career would have been fine, but Slayers went under and was doing terribly the last few months of their existence. Byun made a Code S semifinals since his return from suspension and is doing just fine.
can we keep SC2 vs BW bullshit out of this thread. Seriously, stop. This is not the place to do it.
The reason why this instance of matchfixing is so serious is because apparently it has been going on for a while, and it involves at least a top level player. Possibly since SSL6, we'll find out for sure soon enough.
On December 12 2012 09:06 Emon_ wrote: Seeing as SC2 is starting to announce the players in advance once again - knowing that it led to match fixing last time makes me wonder if this is a big deal anymore.
SC2 had an instance of match-fixing in an ICCUP tournament (back before ICCUP's SC2 guys split off into ESV), and both players (Coca and Byun) got something like an 8-month ban from all tournaments, on the basis that they actually made arraignments to fix the match during the streamed match, and were thus clearly too stupid to be fixing normally. It completely derailed Coca's career, because he got kicked out of his team house for the whole period, and came back a shadow of his former self. (Byun kinda recovered).
I think, though, the silver lining is that an aggressive response to even a hint of match fixing shows that's there's not a systemic rot. If, for instance, two people match fix and get kicked out right away, it could be better long-term for BW than if this came out after it was systemic. Savior match-fixing hurt the fans, but it was the fact that every other A-teamer was corrupt that killed BW. Both by casting a shadow over the whole industry and by eliminating the entire next generation who "should've" supplanted TBLS.
A match fixing scandal didn't kill SC2 (though LoL might), and the reason for that was because it was small and reacted to super-aggressively. I think this is a good chance for Sonic to prove he's not KeSPA, and to take aggressive action against the slightest hint of match-fixing, and thus maintain most of the luster of the SSL.
It would suck so hard to see the same fucking websites kill Korean BW twice.
Nice thing about foreign BW: There's zero incentive to match-fix, because there's so little money involved.
On December 12 2012 11:12 Gebus wrote:
On December 12 2012 08:49 PiPoGevy wrote: Nooo, have u seen the crowd in OSL when it comes to Star2, its dead, this was my new life
Have you seen the crowd in anything that's not the OSL? sc2 is only not very popular in korea.
Really depends on how you define "not popular". SC2 is starting to regularly get trounced by LoL in the ratings, in part because of a long period of "Turtle into mass infestor" leading to incredibly boring games (and PvZ being entirely broken and awful). Blizz has been making a lot of semi-competent decisions with HotS, but it might be too little too late. If SC2 doesn't see its viewership start climbing again soon, it'll probably go under.
That's silly.
GOM is doing higher numbers than last year, NASL is confirmed for two more seasons, IPL5 is confirmed for four seasons in 2013, and while LoL is beating SC2, it doesn't mean that it's going to die. It's laughable that because it isn't as big as LoL that it means it's going to die. That's like if someone came up to me and told me that the NBA or MLB is going to go under because the NFL gets 10x the viewership. Against Dota2, SC2 is still bigger viewer wise if you don't count The International that got a huge bump due to the Valve hype.
I'm fine admitting that SC2 is smaller than LoL, but the idea that it's going to go under is ridiculous. SC2 is doing waaaaaaaaay better outside of Korea than Brood War ever did. Just because it isn't getting millions of viewers means it is going to die. If every e-sport had to get LoL numbers or it would go under, then e-sports would literally be League of Legends and everything else would be gone.
Also comparing Coca-Byun to the BW match fixing or this is hilarious. Byun and Coca were just being dumb friends who didn't know what they were doing. Coca's career would have been fine, but Slayers went under and was doing terribly the last few months of their existence. Byun made a Code S semifinals since his return from suspension and is doing just fine.
can we keep SC2 vs BW bullshit out of this thread. Seriously, stop. This is not the place to do it.
The reason why this instance of matchfixing is so serious is because apparently it has been going on for a while. Possibly since SSL6, we'll find out for sure soon enough.
On December 12 2012 09:25 Anomarad wrote: Is he not getting sponsors because of the match fixing? His last SSL was so successful I don't get why there wouldn't be any sponsors. :/
Maybe he'll change his mind after SSL8.
Sponsors fled from BW after He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named happened. And now, if it seems like to companies without a current stake in eSports that Brood War is nothing but a hive of match fixers - with a second scandal in three years - what incentive is there for them to sponsor it?
I find it hard to believe the entire professional scene lost sponsors over eleven match fixers. Wouldn't the stagnation of the metagame along with SC2's uncertain future in Korea and LoL's rise to prominence have spurred a sponsorship exodus?
dunno what ppl are saying about BW stagnating by the last real Proleague. If you mean like the top 4 players always dominating, yea I guess, but the game was still evolving and entertaining as hell.
Shirokaisen explains it pretty well (sponsors were hella concerned about image) couple posts above.
On December 12 2012 12:13 ArvickHero wrote: dunno what ppl are saying about BW stagnating by the last real Proleague. If you mean like the top 4 players always dominating, yea I guess, but the game was still evolving and entertaining as hell.
Shirokaisen explains it pretty well (sponsors were hella concerned about image) couple posts above.
One of the main reasons why BW continued to evolve (even during the last pl) was cause of new kespa maps every season. Won't be getting any more of those so the meta game is bound to stagnate now (not to mention the end of properly televised proleague / OSL / MSL / teamhouses / insane practice hours from the best players on the planet)..
On December 12 2012 12:13 ArvickHero wrote: dunno what ppl are saying about BW stagnating by the last real Proleague. If you mean like the top 4 players always dominating, yea I guess, but the game was still evolving and entertaining as hell.
Shirokaisen explains it pretty well (sponsors were hella concerned about image) couple posts above.
The top 4? Are we talking about Jangbi, Fantasy, JD and Flash? The game wasn't stagnating. Jangbi might have won back-to-back OSLs but I wouldn't say he was dominating either. Let us not forget about the zerg resistance either. With fewer tournaments we had more focus.
On December 12 2012 12:13 ArvickHero wrote: dunno what ppl are saying about BW stagnating by the last real Proleague. If you mean like the top 4 players always dominating, yea I guess, but the game was still evolving and entertaining as hell.
Shirokaisen explains it pretty well (sponsors were hella concerned about image) couple posts above.
One of the main reasons why BW continued to evolve (even during the last pl) was cause of new kespa maps every season. Won't be getting any more of those so the meta game is bound to stagnate now (not to mention the end of properly televised proleague / OSL / MSL / teamhouses / insane practice hours from the best players on the planet)..
Before I gather enough heart to read through the thread, FUCKING MATCHFIXERS GAMBLERS I will declare vendetta on every one of them for last of my life. Probably easy and healthy thing too since gambling is hardly a beneficial influence.
I wish there where more people as motivated to do something like you. There most be more people willing to help. I wish I was still in Korea. Although Iβm not sure what I could do if I was there anyway.
Please.
I was desperately trying to not get too excited by all the Sonic events and the future of Broodwar I seemed to read more and more about just in case it turned out to be to good to be true. Please don't let my instinct be right here. I want to see Professional Broodwar again it's the only Esport Iβve ever really liked and I watched it religiously until the collapse. Please, lets bring it back.
---- Whatβs all this rubbish about Broodwar stagnating I don't remember this. Just amazing games. Almost never at the end of Broodwar did I think well that was a boring game.
So, if someone would be willing to contact sonic about it, i would like to write a few cheerful words to him. As many of us will likely want. But at first it's probably the best if we settle down a bit until new information is available on the players that matchfixed and additional background.
Cele: his facebook, you can write something yourself Also he just updated his status 20 min ago; anyone willing to translate for a noob like me/us?
<Kimoleon> got info on monday during nto clan match, there was a connection with a sasultoto (company name I think) broker and confirmed it <Kimoleon> many players and the leader refused the offer of matchfixing, but one player of nto clan has confessed to his match fixing, through that player have proof that others in sonic all stars may have match fixed <Jung> i got threatened by brokers so im going to call the cops <Kimoleon> but on the bright side through this event investigation we found numerous players, clan masters, even my broadcasting managers have confirmed refusing these brokers. <Kimoleon> though many confirmations, we found out information on who tried to recruit the NTO clan, that certain gamer was threatened that they would release his name on the matchfixing list, currently linked to this event the truth has been spread from my police investigation reques <Kimoleon> though many confirmations, we found out information on who tried to recruit the NTO clan, that certain gamer was threatened that they would release his name on the matchfixing list, currently linked to this event the truth has been spread from my police investigation request <Kimoleon> even if the past giant kespa organization could not stop the contact between these brokers and players, how could I BJ Sonic alone prevent hundreds of ppl, bj, etc them? it's so draining and exhausting.. <Kimoleon> these last two days, I've fallen into a state of dejection and helplessness. <Kimoleon> I was told I could not solve this on my own, the best case is with investigate these brokers who were the ones running the matchfixing, with the checkcall records and the owner of these numbers will be under investigation. <Kimoleon> this might be tough for people who are playing starcraft, but I have to say this <Kimoleon> (long list of criminal offenses they can be charged with, interfereance with business, gambling, cheating etc) cheating etc) <Kimoleon> when a broker approaches you and says, "if it's just two of us its ok you know?", "after a meal some drinks, I'll give you some cash, they can't catch us. no proof", "we'll take it to our graves" will the be appraoch of these people. In this world, nothing can stay secret forever. <Kimoleon> (more talk, how even his broadcast manager got offered, what if they get caught, will they pay their lawyer fees etc) <Kimoleon> until this problem is solved, from my senior year in high school I put my golden years into starcraft1 broodwar... starting my sonic star lessons, amateur leagues, and now passing 2.5 years bj starleague.. after being released from the army I couldn't forget it so I started again, while running a small business couldn't let this go, even as it gives me stress can't let go.. this starcraft league that <Kimoleon> I love cannot go on. <Kimoleon> 8th bj starleague connected thousands of dollars from sponsors, big companies with good offers.. stopped all these current talks, the chance given to me, sponsor, offers.. the viewers made fun of me, (will continue on until this is solved) if this cannot be solved I'm willing to cut my eonnections with starcraft.
EPT
