Ok kiddies, I've got the magic formula. Now, I haven't run it with Mataza's range of speeds to get the "relevant" details but I'm sure you won't mind the practice, and tbh, I'm done being interested in the math now.
So basically, let's just lay the ground work.
DPS = Dmg / Time
Total DPS = Total Dmg / Total Time
Total Dmg = Dmg1 + Dmg2
Total Time = Time1 + Time2
Okay, so the numbers we are given to work with on a weapon are:
Dmg = X Atk/Sec = Y DPS = Z
How do we get time:
Time = 1 Atk / Y Atk/Sec = 1/Y Sec
So plugging into our formula above:
Total DPS = Total Dmg / Total Time = (X + X') / (T + T') = (X + X') / [(1 / Y) + (1 / Y')]
Are we good so far? Now, this is the equation we would be using if we were just going to do the work and plug stuff in, but this really doesn't do anything for us on the fly. What is it we really want to know? What we want to know is at what point does adding second weapon EQUAL the DPS of just using the primary weapon. When we know this, we know something better will make the total DPS better, and something worse will make the total DPS worse. So to set up the equation for what we want to know:
Z = (1.15 - 1)XY' + 1.15Z' Z = .15XY' + 1.15Z' <-- specific formula
I hope I don't need to explain any of that, all just standard algebra: substitution, distributive property, etc. Now this is nice when we want to solve for the original DPS, but that's not what we are after (we started with the original DPS after all), what we are after is an equation that tells us something about the offhand weapon. There are two equations that we can draw from for this based on the above:
Z = (C - 1)XY' + CZ'
Z - CZ' = (C - 1)XY' (Z - CZ') / [(C - 1)X] = Y'
Y' = (Z - CZ') / [(C - 1)X] <-- generic formula
Y' = (Z - 1.15Z') / [(1.15 - 1)X] Y' = (Z - 1.15Z') / .15X <-- specific formula
to find the break-even offhand speed for a given offhand DPS, and:
Z = (C - 1)XY' + CZ'
Z - (C - 1)XY' = CZ' [Z - (C - 1)XY'] / C = Z'
Z' = [Z - (C - 1)XY'] / C <-- generic formula
Z' = [Z - (1.15 - 1)XY'] / 1.15 Z' = (Z - .15XY') / 1.15 <-- specific formula
to find the break-even offhand DPS for a given offhand speed.
Personally I would use the former because I think it is easier to think in those terms, but the latter is probably has a more broad application since it seems the range of speed is more limited than the range of DPS -- but there they both are for you.
Now please note that these formulas work for:
Z > Z' > 0
When Z = Z', you have reached a limit and you will get some strange results like 1 = -1. Basically, you cannot have two weapons with the same DPS such that whatever the ratio of Dmg to Atk/Sec makes the total DPS go down to that of the original DPS. In fact, when Z = Z', your total DPS is simply going to be 1.15Z (or 1.15Z', or {1.15Z + 1.15Z'} / 2 ... doesn't really matter, it's all the same in this special case).
I should probably mention here in case it isn't obvious that once you find your break-even offhand speed or DPS, higher numbers than that are better, and lower are worse (just to cover the bases of someone not understanding why we are finding the point of breaking even).
Anywho, I hope that helps simply some things for people. I think there are a few cool things to take from this:
1) Two "quick and easy" formulas to choose from for helping to determine at a glance whether a weapon is better for dual-wielding (obviously, just at the core, not with extra bonuses and considerations).
2) That the damage of the bigger DPS weapon is what matters, in conjunction with the speed of the lower DPS weapon (I think we knew this but it is interesting to note).
3) That the generic formula(s) can be used for further breakpoint finding (like when a weapon gives a decimal IAS bonus).
On February 28 2012 15:18 HypertonicHydroponic wrote:
Total DPS = Total Dmg / Total Time = (X + X') / (T + T') = (X + X') / [(1 / Y) + (1 / Y')]
This is oversimplifed and unneededly complicated at the same time. You don't need to create the custom variable TIME when you can get the same answer you have there by simply doing this
DPS = DMG * APS
This will get you the same result as
DPS = DMG / (1/APS)
Proof by example: 1.4 APS 4.5 DAMAGE 6.3 DPS
Your method:
6.3 = 4.5 / (1/1.4)
My method:
6.3 = 4.5 * 1.4
So this is how it's overly complicated.
It is overly simplified because we don't care about a weapon's DPS off character, only on character, and for on character you neglected to factor in
Crit chance Crit bonus Primary attribute Bonus to damage Decimal attack speed modifier from other weapon Percentage attack speed modifier from other items
The correct formula for a single weapon on character is
The [N] is there to show that there could be many of these, one for each percentage bonus to attack speed.
This is the formula I use for my calculator here: http://armadagaming.com/dpscalculator.php So far it hasn't shown any incorrect figures when compared to ingame. I'll be adding support for two weapons in the next few days hopefully
Have you viewed this yet?
It shows conclusively that any threshhold formula is pretty useless because of the other factors that you have to consider + Show Spoiler +
I show that my DPS can go up even though I equip a lower DPS weapon
Anyways I don't think your math is wrong per se and respect for taking the time to do this. I'm actually tackling a D3 math problem now that I'm having trouble with.
I would like to reply to your last post, but first I want to give a quick example of how my formula(s) works to give people an idea of how it could be relevant since I neglected to do so in my last post:
X = 20 dmg Y = 1.5 A/S --> T = 1 / 1.5 = .667 Z = 30 DPS
So an offhand weapon with 12DPS need to have an attack speed of 5.4 A/S to make the original DPS (30) happen overall. Clearly, its 1.2 is much less than this, so we know this weapon will decrease the DPS.
Now using the "Find DPS" version:
Z' = [Z - .15XY'] / 1.15
We plug in the primary DPS, offhand speed, and primary damage...
On February 28 2012 15:18 HypertonicHydroponic wrote:
Total DPS = Total Dmg / Total Time = (X + X') / (T + T') = (X + X') / [(1 / Y) + (1 / Y')]
This is oversimplifed and unneededly complicated at the same time. You don't need to create the custom variable TIME when you can get the same answer you have there by simply doing this
DPS = DMG * APS
This will get you the same result as
DPS = DMG / (1/APS)
Proof by example: 1.4 APS 4.5 DAMAGE 6.3 DPS
Your method:
6.3 = 4.5 / (1/1.4)
My method:
6.3 = 4.5 * 1.4
So this is how it's overly complicated.
How do we get time:
Time = 1 Atk / Y Atk/Sec = 1/Y Sec
...
Subsitution: Z = X / (1 / Y) = X * Y
As you can see, I did address this, though just briefly. The problem with the simplified form is that when you have to take into account two different weapons of possibly differing damages and speeds, you cannot use the simplified form because:
Y + Y' != 1 / (T + T')
DPS is just that, Damage Per Second -- it has nothing to do with the number of attacks. But we do need to account for the number of attacks being averaged together. In a lot of ways it is like the following:
A car travels at 40mph for 15 minutes, 30mph for 20 minutes, and 60mph for 25 minutes. The total distance travelled is:
because they are weighted by the amount of time for each speed. So to find the average speed we need the Total Distance divided by the Total Time.
45 miles / [(1/4)h + (1/3)h + (5/12)h] = 45 miles / [(15/60)h + (20/60)h + (25/60)h] = 45 miles / (60/60)h = 45 miles / 1h = 45mph
So average speed is clearly different than the average of the speeds. This is quite similar to the conversions needed to find the "Total DPS" which is really an average. But in the case of DPS, the miles are damage, the minutes are attacks, and the hours are seconds.
We make 15 attacks with our 40dps weapon, 20 attacks with 30dps weapon, and 25 attacks with the 60dps weapon: what was the average (or "Total") DPS? The math is the same (but our conversion rate is different since there will always be 60 minutes in 1 hour, but there will be a varying amount of attacks in 1 second).
But what we are dealing with is just a simple two attacks, which brings us back to:
There is no needless complication -- it is what it is. Just because the inverse of the inverse equals the starting value, does not mean the inverse of the addition of inverses equals the addition of the starting values:
It should be obvious that the following is not always the case, and in fact only the case when Y = Y':
Y / 2 = YY' / (Y + Y')
And this is why you must do
(X + X') / [(1 / Y) + (1 / Y')]
and not
(XY + X'Y') / 2
when you are dealing with the Average or Total DPS. So no, it is not over complicated, it is correct. Your "My method" is a nice-to-have that is only doable when you are dealing with a single rate of attack.
It is overly simplified because we don't care about a weapon's DPS off character, only on character, and for on character you neglected to factor in
Crit chance Crit bonus Primary attribute Bonus to damage Decimal attack speed modifier from other weapon Percentage attack speed modifier from other items
The correct formula for a single weapon on character is
The [N] is there to show that there could be many of these, one for each percentage bonus to attack speed.
This is the formula I use for my calculator here: http://armadagaming.com/dpscalculator.php So far it hasn't shown any incorrect figures when compared to ingame. I'll be adding support for two weapons in the next few days hopefully
Have you viewed this yet?
It shows conclusively that any threshhold formula is pretty useless because of the other factors that you have to consider + Show Spoiler +
Anyways I don't think your math is wrong per se and respect for taking the time to do this. I'm actually tackling a D3 math problem now that I'm having trouble with.
PM me if you're interested in giving it a look
Even this is not quite an accurate assessment. While my formula does not take into account a lot of the extras in your formula, there is a way you can use my formula which does not even need to take those things into consideration. That is not to say we won't take those things into consideration, but that is to say we don't need to take them into consideration *in the context of* the average DPS.
You can just get this from your formula or from equiping the weapon in a 1hand configuration and reading the number of the menu. Repeat for the offhand weapon. Now we have the two DPS values.
So all we need now is the Primary Damage. Obviously, this might need a little bit of calculation, but it can be boiled down to the following elements:
because we don't need the primary speed for our formula (it is already taken into account in the form of the Primary DPS). This shouldn't be too hard to calculate on the fly.
Then you plug in and compare the result to the current Offhand speed. If the offhand speed equals or is better than the result, you can dual wield without hurting DPS.
The only exception to this I can see is when the offhand weapon adds decimal IAS, in which case you would need to recalculate the Primary DPS manually (e.g., via your calculator [or ***]) since it gets added directly to the WEAPON ATTACK SPEED before percentage modifiers as shown in your video.
Of course, if the game is going to be showing what your overall DPS is anyway, you might as well just stick a weapon in your offhand and see what it says -- all of this really is then just understanding what is going on and maybe helping to know some special breakpoints. My intent was never to generate DPS given a set of theoretical conditions, but to find how offhand speed factors into the resulting DPS, which I did. If you want a more complicated version of my formula given your DPS formula (which does not look like it takes decimal speed increase into account, btw) that would take into account all of the different things that can affect the Primary or Offhand DPS, I can do that.
*** Ok, one thing just occurred to me about the decimal IAS that might not make it all that difficult to recalculate manually. Since my formula works based on individual weapon DPS, you can recalculate the "but what if there is a bonus decimal ias" for the single weapon in the following manner:
First I'm going to reformat your equation to read a bit shorter, and also add in the decimal IAS:
So then all we need to do is multiply the DApS' by the Q we've determined, and slap it on our original DPS.
We then plug in the DPS' and solve for our threshold Speed and we are off and running again. Anyway, I haven't tested it yet, so I could be overlooking something with this part, but still, if your calculator is accurate for single weapon DPS, you can still use the threshold formulas without this trickery.
On February 29 2012 15:37 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: Y + Y' != 1 / (T + T')
You are right, sorry for my shortsightedness
I'm 99% sure the problem I'm now having is the same problem you have but you don't know it yethehe Just replied to your PM, looking forward to showing you what I've got =]
Is the "dps" value of any use to casters? By that I mean the dps number on the stats page of your character. Since all the skills are based off "weapon damage". Or is this the same thing and just worded differently.
The first: when the game is calculating you dual wielding attacks, does each hand get one attack once every so many seconds, or is it 1 hand attacking, and then the other.
If that's not clear, let's say you have you have a weapon in your right hand that attacks once every second (1.00) and another in your left that attacks twice every second (.5), with both values assuming that the dual wield speed bonus has already been applied. would you attack with the .5 weapon first, then both simultaneously, then the .5, simultaneous, etc. or would you attack first after 1 second, then half a second later, then a second later, then half a second later, and so on.
The second question, are barbarians allowed to dual wield any 2 handed weapon, or are there weapon classes that can be dual wielded while others cannot. The reason why I am asking this is because I thought that Barbarians could dual wield any 2 hander. However, their class specific Mighty Weapons have a 1 hand and 2 hand category. It seems stupid to have 2 handed class specific items for a class that can hold any 2 handed weapon in 1 hand.
On April 28 2012 05:17 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: I have 2 questions about dual wielding.
The first: when the game is calculating you dual wielding attacks, does each hand get one attack once every so many seconds, or is it 1 hand attacking, and then the other.
If that's not clear, let's say you have you have a weapon in your right hand that attacks once every second (1.00) and another in your left that attacks twice every second (.5), with both values assuming that the dual wield speed bonus has already been applied. would you attack with the .5 weapon first, then both simultaneously, then the .5, simultaneous, etc. or would you attack first after 1 second, then half a second later, then a second later, then half a second later, and so on.
The second question, are barbarians allowed to dual wield any 2 handed weapon, or are there weapon classes that can be dual wielded while others cannot. The reason why I am asking this is because I thought that Barbarians could dual wield any 2 hander. However, their class specific Mighty Weapons have a 1 hand and 2 hand category. It seems stupid to have 2 handed class specific items for a class that can hold any 2 handed weapon in 1 hand.
As for your first question, the attack speed is calculated independently, but the hands attack alternatingly ( fairly certain that isn't a word but whatever). This is why having a low DPS offhand can actually lower your dps, if they just attacked at their independently calculated dual-wield speed than having two weapons would ALWAYS be a dps increase over a single one-handed weapon. Basically, your second example is correct.
Unfortunately I can't help you on the second one :/
On March 01 2012 22:26 gunr wrote: Is the "dps" value of any use to casters? By that I mean the dps number on the stats page of your character. Since all the skills are based off "weapon damage". Or is this the same thing and just worded differently.
The DPS number on its own doe not necessarily mean anything, but the weapon speed also factors into your casting speed if I'm not mistaken.
On March 01 2012 22:26 gunr wrote: Is the "dps" value of any use to casters? By that I mean the dps number on the stats page of your character. Since all the skills are based off "weapon damage". Or is this the same thing and just worded differently.
The DPS number on its own doe not necessarily mean anything, but the weapon speed also factors into your casting speed if I'm not mistaken.
Don´t your own words contradict you? Logically weapon damage increases your damage. Weapon speed increases cast speed. Put those together and you have Damage Per Second.
So yes, dps is generally good too for casters. Unless they completely remove the energy gaining feats from wiz, it should make next to no difference at all.
I'm having trouble conceptualizing why damage can go DOWN because of dual wielding (I'm not denying that it can, I just can't figure out why).
I understand that the weaker weapon is dragging the dps down, but I can't understand WHY, and it is probably because I'm not understanding the dual-wield mechanic right.
The way I am understanding it is that EACH weapon swings 15% faster when you are dual wielding(this is the way it is presented in the video). So even if your offhand weapon did literally 0 dps, shouldn't your main-hand weapon be swinging 15% faster(making you do more damange)? I'm not understanding where the trade-off is that can bring the dps down. Something is being averaged here, it seems like, but I can't figure out what.
Again, I'm not refuting that dps can go down, I'm asking if anyone can explain more clearly WHY for me. Thanks.
On April 28 2012 08:42 HardlyNever wrote: I'm having trouble conceptualizing why damage can go DOWN because of dual wielding (I'm not denying that it can, I just can't figure out why).
I understand that the weaker weapon is dragging the dps down, but I can't understand WHY, and it is probably because I'm not understanding the dual-wield mechanic right.
The way I am understanding it is that EACH weapon swings 15% faster when you are dual wielding(this is the way it is presented in the video). So even if your offhand weapon did literally 0 dps, shouldn't your main-hand weapon be swinging 15% faster(making you do more damange)? I'm not understanding where the trade-off is that can bring the dps down. Something is being averaged here, it seems like, but I can't figure out what.
Again, I'm not refuting that dps can go down, I'm asking if anyone can explain more clearly WHY for me. Thanks.
It's like this, you have a 30 damage weapon equipped, so your hits (excluding skill and stat bonuses) look like this: 30, 30, 30 etc. Then you equip a 5 damage weapon in the offhand slot, now you hit like this: 30, 5, 30, 5. Even though you attack faster, it doesn't make up for the fact you're causing very little damage every other hit, hence the dps drop. You just have to remember you're swinging the weapons one after the other, not simultaneously, just because you have two weapons equipped doesn't mean you add the damages together and apply them to every hit.
On April 28 2012 08:42 HardlyNever wrote: I'm having trouble conceptualizing why damage can go DOWN because of dual wielding (I'm not denying that it can, I just can't figure out why).
I understand that the weaker weapon is dragging the dps down, but I can't understand WHY, and it is probably because I'm not understanding the dual-wield mechanic right.
The way I am understanding it is that EACH weapon swings 15% faster when you are dual wielding(this is the way it is presented in the video). So even if your offhand weapon did literally 0 dps, shouldn't your main-hand weapon be swinging 15% faster(making you do more damange)? I'm not understanding where the trade-off is that can bring the dps down. Something is being averaged here, it seems like, but I can't figure out what.
Again, I'm not refuting that dps can go down, I'm asking if anyone can explain more clearly WHY for me. Thanks.
It's like this, you have a 30 damage weapon equipped, so your hits (excluding skill and stat bonuses) look like this: 30, 30, 30 etc. Then you equip a 5 damage weapon in the offhand slot, now you hit like this: 30, 5, 30, 5. Even though you attack faster, it doesn't make up for the fact you're causing very little damage every other hit, hence the dps drop. You just have to remember you're swinging the weapons one after the other, not simultaneously, just because you have two weapons equipped doesn't mean you add the damages together and apply them to every hit.
I get this, conceptually, but that doesn't explain what is going on with the numbers. The way it is displayed in the video, that shouldn't matter. The way attack speed was displayed in the video BOTH weapons were swinging 15% faster EACH. To use your example:
Lets say the axe alone swings for 30 damage 1.2 times a second. So we would have 30,30,30 1.2 times a second.
Then lets say you put a dagger in the off-hand doing that 5 damage 1.5 times a second . Your swings would look like 30, 5, 30, 5, 30, but your axe would be doing that 30 damage 1.38 times a second, just on its own (again, that is how the video presents it). That alone would net you a dps increase, regardless of what the off hand swings looked like.
Your explanation gives no consideration for speed in the example. Again, I'm not saying it isn't happening, I'm just not understanding how to model it based on what was presented in the video (that each weapon gains 15% IAS).
On April 28 2012 08:42 HardlyNever wrote: I'm having trouble conceptualizing why damage can go DOWN because of dual wielding (I'm not denying that it can, I just can't figure out why).
I understand that the weaker weapon is dragging the dps down, but I can't understand WHY, and it is probably because I'm not understanding the dual-wield mechanic right.
The way I am understanding it is that EACH weapon swings 15% faster when you are dual wielding(this is the way it is presented in the video). So even if your offhand weapon did literally 0 dps, shouldn't your main-hand weapon be swinging 15% faster(making you do more damange)? I'm not understanding where the trade-off is that can bring the dps down. Something is being averaged here, it seems like, but I can't figure out what.
Again, I'm not refuting that dps can go down, I'm asking if anyone can explain more clearly WHY for me. Thanks.
It's because despite the 15% increased attack speed, your mainhand is actually attacking more slowly because it is alternating attacks with your offhand. For example you have Weapon A that does 20 damage per swing and attacks 1 time per second, for a total of 20 DPS, then you equip weapon B that does 5 damage a swing and attacks 1 time per second for 5 DPS. With the 15% attack speed buff you get 1.15 attacks per second from either weapon. So in 10 seconds you would get a total of 11.5 attacks if you were dual wielding, 5.75 of those doing 20 damage per hit (115 damage total) and 5.75 doing 5 damage per hit ( rounded up to 29 damage for simplicity's sake). Now in the same 10 seconds, if you were wielding only Weapon A you would hit 10 times for 200 damage. 115 + 29 is 144 damage, or 14.4 DPS , vs 200 (20 dps) of only wielding A means that equipping weapon B is a net DPS loss of about 23%.
The reason it's a loss is because both weapons don't attack at 1.15 speed EACH, they take turns attacking.
Edit: "Your explanation gives no consideration for speed in the example. Again, I'm not saying it isn't happening, I'm just not understanding how to model it based on what was presented in the video (that each weapon gains 15% IAS)."
The reason is because the weapons don't work independently of each other, they are only treated as independent for purposes of calculating their attack speed.
If you had Weapon A with 2 attacks per second, and weapon B with 1 attack per second your attacks would look like this.
Weapon A attacks after ~.45 seconds, then weapon B attacks ~.83 seconds later, then .45 seconds after that Weapon A attacks again. (Obviously these times were completely geurilla math, but I think they illustrate the picture)
The weapons alternate and attack at the delay that is calculated independently for each weapon. They always attack A,B,A,B etc. no matter how much faster weapon A is than weapon B.
On April 28 2012 08:42 HardlyNever wrote: I'm having trouble conceptualizing why damage can go DOWN because of dual wielding (I'm not denying that it can, I just can't figure out why).
I understand that the weaker weapon is dragging the dps down, but I can't understand WHY, and it is probably because I'm not understanding the dual-wield mechanic right.
The way I am understanding it is that EACH weapon swings 15% faster when you are dual wielding(this is the way it is presented in the video). So even if your offhand weapon did literally 0 dps, shouldn't your main-hand weapon be swinging 15% faster(making you do more damange)? I'm not understanding where the trade-off is that can bring the dps down. Something is being averaged here, it seems like, but I can't figure out what.
Again, I'm not refuting that dps can go down, I'm asking if anyone can explain more clearly WHY for me. Thanks.
It's because despite the 15% increased attack speed, your mainhand is actually attacking more slowly because it is alternating attacks with your offhand.
This is contrary to what is being displayed in the video, (thus my hang up with this entire thing). The rest of your explanation is fine, except that this statement does not reflect what is being shown in the video. Skip to around 2:45 in the video, where he is equipping the club in one hand, and the dagger in the other.
If you watch, two things are happening. First and foremost, the attack speed of the CLUB goes UP from 1.2 to 1.38. So the main hand IS attacking faster. The second thing is that the video is saying that the attack speed is independent on BOTH weapons. In other words, the attack speed displayed isn't some average of the two, but BOTH weapons get to swing 15% faster.
My hang up is I'm not understanding how the other hand causes any sort of delay. I'm taking the displayed attack speed of each weapon literally, i.e. the club is going to swing 1.38 times a second, no matter what. What you are suggesting is that that isn't actually true, and that both weapons get a set attack speed (an average of the two, plus the 15% increase), and they take turns sharing that attack slot (in other words, your character will attack at that average speed, but alternate between the two weapons).
That is fine, and I would like it to work that way, but the way the information is presented in the video suggests otherwise. Perhaps the character sheet displayed attack speed isn't really accurate (i.e it doesn't truly alternate per weapon)?
On April 28 2012 08:42 HardlyNever wrote: I'm having trouble conceptualizing why damage can go DOWN because of dual wielding (I'm not denying that it can, I just can't figure out why).
I understand that the weaker weapon is dragging the dps down, but I can't understand WHY, and it is probably because I'm not understanding the dual-wield mechanic right.
The way I am understanding it is that EACH weapon swings 15% faster when you are dual wielding(this is the way it is presented in the video). So even if your offhand weapon did literally 0 dps, shouldn't your main-hand weapon be swinging 15% faster(making you do more damange)? I'm not understanding where the trade-off is that can bring the dps down. Something is being averaged here, it seems like, but I can't figure out what.
Again, I'm not refuting that dps can go down, I'm asking if anyone can explain more clearly WHY for me. Thanks.
It's because despite the 15% increased attack speed, your mainhand is actually attacking more slowly because it is alternating attacks with your offhand.
This is contrary to what is being displayed in the video, (thus my hang up with this entire thing). The rest of your explanation is fine, except that this statement does not reflect what is being shown in the video. Skip to around 2:45 in the video, where he is equipping the club in one hand, and the dagger in the other.
If you watch, two things are happening. First and foremost, the attack speed of the CLUB goes UP from 1.2 to 1.38. So the main hand IS attacking faster. The second thing is that the video is saying that the attack speed is independent on BOTH weapons. In other words, the attack speed displayed isn't some average of the two, but BOTH weapons get to swing 15% faster.
My hang up is I'm not understanding how the other hand causes any sort of delay. I'm taking the displayed attack speed of each weapon literally, i.e. the club is going to swing 1.38 times a second, no matter what. What you are suggesting is that that isn't actually true, and that both weapons get a set attack speed (an average of the two, plus the 15% increase), and they take turns sharing that attack slot (in other words, your character will attack at that average speed, but alternate between the two weapons).
That is fine, and I would like it to work that way, but the way the information is presented in the video suggests otherwise. Perhaps the character sheet displayed attack speed isn't really accurate (i.e it doesn't truly alternate per weapon)?
But that's the point, the axe doesn't attack 1.38 times a second. It swings once, then the offhand, then the axe again. While the offhand is swinging, the axe isn't doing damage.
The overall time it takes an individual weapon to attack is reduced by 15%, but because the hands are forced to take turns, your mainhand ends up attacking less often than it would if you were dual-wielding. I really don't know how to explain it any more plainly
Edit: Basically the MH's attack timer isn't on cooldown while the offhand is attacking. Whenever it is the offhand weapons turn to attack, the MH is basically just sitting there doing nothing.
Another way to say this is that the attacks per second that is displayed isn't a true representation of how many attacks per second that weapon makes while dual-wielding, but is instead a representation of the delay between when your offhand finishes attacking and your mainhand begins attacking. Basically blizzard chose to represent it in a counterintuitive way when considering how dual-wielding in general works.
On April 28 2012 05:17 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: I have 2 questions about dual wielding.
The first: when the game is calculating you dual wielding attacks, does each hand get one attack once every so many seconds, or is it 1 hand attacking, and then the other.
If that's not clear, let's say you have you have a weapon in your right hand that attacks once every second (1.00) and another in your left that attacks twice every second (.5), with both values assuming that the dual wield speed bonus has already been applied. would you attack with the .5 weapon first, then both simultaneously, then the .5, simultaneous, etc. or would you attack first after 1 second, then half a second later, then a second later, then half a second later, and so on.
The second question, are barbarians allowed to dual wield any 2 handed weapon, or are there weapon classes that can be dual wielded while others cannot. The reason why I am asking this is because I thought that Barbarians could dual wield any 2 hander. However, their class specific Mighty Weapons have a 1 hand and 2 hand category. It seems stupid to have 2 handed class specific items for a class that can hold any 2 handed weapon in 1 hand.
As for your first question, the attack speed is calculated independently, but the hands attack alternatingly ( fairly certain that isn't a word but whatever). This is why having a low DPS offhand can actually lower your dps, if they just attacked at their independently calculated dual-wield speed than having two weapons would ALWAYS be a dps increase over a single one-handed weapon. Basically, your second example is correct.
Unfortunately I can't help you on the second one :/
Thanks!
That's how I thought it would work, but I looked around a bunch and couldn't find a definitive answer, but you're reasoning for why it isn't always a dps increase to dual wield makes perfect sense.
As for my second question, in case anyone is wondering, I did a search on the forums and it turns out that Barbarians simply cannot equip 2 handed weapons in 1 hand. I assumed that they could, but now that I think about it, I never actually tried it in the beta.
I feel like you guys aren't watching the video. Are you watching the video? Watch the video (at like the 2:44 mark). The club speed goes up to 1.38(1.2 +15%). He swings it. Then the character sheet goes to the offhand speed, which is like 1.72 (15% faster than 1.5). That is what is displayed.
Again, I'm willing to accept that what is displayed isn't what is actually going on, but that isn't how the information is presented. It is presented as BOTH weapons have an INDEPENDENT attack speed, and that INDEPENDENT attack speed is INCREASED by 15% EACH. He basically says as much (please, watch that part of the video).
What I'm getting at is something isn't working quite how it is displayed, but I'm not sure what it is.
Watch the video again, and note that the attack speed changes after one attack. This is what makes it clear that the weapons take turns sharing the attack slot. However, when they are swung, they use their own attack rate (as reduced by DW) independent of the attack rate of the other weapon. Maybe a timeline would make things clearer. Assuming that A attacks once a second and B attacks twice a second when taking into account the DW speed increase, your attacks will look like:
[Weapon A Hits] - [Wait 1s] - [Weapon B Hits] - [Wait .5s] - [Weapon A Hits] - [Wait 1s] - ....
Note that I've simplified this a bit, in that depending on how attack animations are coded and such, the "hit" should actually occur somewhere in the middle of the "Wait" time. What is displayed is exactly what happens, in the sense that while "active" each weapon attacks at it's own rate, it's just that while the other weapon is swinging, the unused weapon is not "active", and so has no effect on the current attack.
On April 28 2012 10:19 HardlyNever wrote: I feel like you guys aren't watching the video. Are you watching the video? Watch the video (at like the 2:44 mark). The club speed goes up to 1.38(1.2 +15%). He swings it. Then the character sheet goes to the offhand speed, which is like 1.72 (15% faster than 1.5). That is what is displayed.
Again, I'm willing to accept that what is displayed isn't what is actually going on, but that isn't how the information is presented. It is presented as BOTH weapons have an INDEPENDENT attack speed, and that INDEPENDENT attack speed is INCREASED by 15% EACH. He basically says as much (please, watch that part of the video).
What I'm getting at is something isn't working quite how it is displayed, but I'm not sure what it is.
It's working fine, I've watched the video and while he doesn't do a great job explaining it, it's there. You just don't seem to be understanding, not sure what more I can say
EPT
