|
Here's some more gems from wbg
On August 04 2012 21:14 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 20:48 strongandbig wrote:On August 04 2012 19:56 wherebugsgo wrote:On August 04 2012 18:51 strongandbig wrote:man bugs you can do better than this. what, did you forget that VE and I were in wheel of fortune too? Ace's Scum 101: get town to lynch people for being bad rather than for being scum. I mean, I may be bad but I'm not stupid. On August 04 2012 17:47 wherebugsgo wrote:
also no, obviously I think all the other lynch candidates are inferior.
Why should we resort to trusting a vig to shoot grush? How do we even know if we have a vig? This sort of stuff really pisses me off, because it delays the inevitable. On August 04 2012 09:00 wherebugsgo wrote:
Your basic assumption that outing masons in this game is antitown is flawed. I already pointed that out when...oh, I dunno, I called you bad several times for thinking it.
If you out masons then you pressure them. Zephirdd was 100% correct on why I did it (and if he's scum that was a pretty brilliant play by him). The goal is to distinguish the town masons from the scum masons via their handing of the pressure.
Also it has the side effect of scaring mafia masons into potentially not using their roles if they fear they will instantly be outted and put in a small pool of players for scrutiny. Playing like Ace only works when you're Ace and always play like Ace. On August 03 2012 20:59 wherebugsgo wrote:
1. Being a mason isn't alignment indicative (therefore outting a mason is rather worthless)
Town wbg would realize that this logic is terrible. Town wbg wouldn't give multiple different explanations for outing masons on day 1 without discussing it with them and without participating with the town discussion of whether masons should claim. (for reference, those explanations were "because VE and I are good and this way medics might medic us", and "to pressure the masons") Town wbg wouldn't try to lead a lynch on a bad player just for being bad, without making a case, etc. This isn't town wbg. ##vote: wherebugsgo Number 1: I did not give multiple explanations for outting the masons. I gave one. I don't see how you asserting that I gave multiple explanations is an indication that I did. Yeah you did. First you said it was so mafia would have to wifom over whether to shoot you and VE, then you said it was to pressure VE. These aren't two different explanations. It's ONE explanation with THREE parts (one which you missed, btw.) It would be suspicious if I went back and said "no that's not what I meant, I meant THIS" because then I would be flip flopping. Having multiple reasons for something being good is simply an indication of it being...well, good. You can argue semantics but from a scumhunting perspective it only matters if your target changed his explanation. If the explanation hasn't changed then there's nothing wrong.
There's no reason for bugs to have said "I did not give multiple explanations" if he actually had three different reasons. The only way I could possibly buy that is if he gave all these reasons at the same time instead of spreading them out over multiple posts in response to different pressures.
On August 04 2012 21:14 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 20:48 strongandbig wrote:On August 04 2012 20:48 strongandbig wrote:On August 04 2012 18:51 strongandbig wrote:man bugs you can do better than this. what, did you forget that VE and I were in wheel of fortune too? Ace's Scum 101: get town to lynch people for being bad rather than for being scum. I mean, I may be bad but I'm not stupid. On August 04 2012 17:47 wherebugsgo wrote:
also no, obviously I think all the other lynch candidates are inferior.
Why should we resort to trusting a vig to shoot grush? How do we even know if we have a vig? This sort of stuff really pisses me off, because it delays the inevitable. On August 04 2012 09:00 wherebugsgo wrote:
Your basic assumption that outing masons in this game is antitown is flawed. I already pointed that out when...oh, I dunno, I called you bad several times for thinking it.
If you out masons then you pressure them. Zephirdd was 100% correct on why I did it (and if he's scum that was a pretty brilliant play by him). The goal is to distinguish the town masons from the scum masons via their handing of the pressure.
Also it has the side effect of scaring mafia masons into potentially not using their roles if they fear they will instantly be outted and put in a small pool of players for scrutiny. Playing like Ace only works when you're Ace and always play like Ace. On August 03 2012 20:59 wherebugsgo wrote:
1. Being a mason isn't alignment indicative (therefore outting a mason is rather worthless)
Town wbg would realize that this logic is terrible. Town wbg wouldn't give multiple different explanations for outing masons on day 1 without discussing it with them and without participating with the town discussion of whether masons should claim. (for reference, those explanations were "because VE and I are good and this way medics might medic us", and "to pressure the masons") Town wbg wouldn't try to lead a lynch on a bad player just for being bad, without making a case, etc. This isn't town wbg. ##vote: wherebugsgo Third, how is being a mason not being alignment indicative (a fucking fact of the setup) "terrible logic"? That's not the part that's wrong. The part that's wrong is "therefore outting a mason is rather worthless." This is probably just you not understanding what I was saying because of my carelessness with the sentence. Possessing the role of mason in this game says nothing about your alignment. Therefore, if I out someone as a mason it doesn't tell anyone anything about whether they are town or mafia (therefore the act itself is worthless in terms of determining their alignment.)
So this still ignores the same point as bugs ignored originally - the mason role has uses beyond giving information about the alignment of the person with the power. If you out someone as mason it clearly doesn't tell us anything about their alignment but it does change the way they can use their role, and if they're town it can hurt town. When bugs was masoned, for him to essentially go "the guy who masoned me could be scum, I'ma reveal them to town so I can find out" was the lazy way. If bugs was town I would think he would have some confidence in his own ability to read people who are masoned with him, and would realize that if he gets a town read on the person then it's advantageous to not reveal them as the mason.
|
On August 05 2012 00:55 Erandorr wrote:@ Strongandbig Show nested quote +Erandorr just masoned me. Dunno if he's scum or just dumb though.
Also I didn't ask either of them before outting them.
I would like your opinion. From a town POV, why would wbg call me scum or dumb if I mason him? He assumes a town Mason must be dumb to mason him, because he instantly outs them. He said later that outing town masons is also pro town, because it forces Scum to shoot suboptimally. And obviously because a town mason has nothing to fear from pressure. So there is absolutely no reason to call a town mason dumb for masoning him, unless he knows that his move fucks town masons over.
lol
I don't agree with this entirely. His thought process could be "Erandorr says he wants to remain secret; Erandorr masoned me after I just revealed the last guy who masoned me; therefore, either Eranorr is lying about wanting to remain secret (because he's scum and thinks he can gain town cred here) or he is stupid."
Frankly I agree that you masoning him didn't make any sense. Tha
|
t doesn't really matter now though so let's not focus too much on it.
|
On August 04 2012 22:56 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 22:52 Lazermonkey wrote:
Wbg: grush scum meta isn't to troll. His meta overall just doesn't make any sense. I played with him in Newbie XVI(where you actually coached me a bit so you maybe remember that as well). He made posts like this all the time and even claimed detective. Guess what? He was VT.
Lynching grush today is essentially a coinflip. I will not lynch into him today. So what exactly do you intend to do. Do you agree about WBG?
If you mean agree with lynching him, then yes. His play really havn't made alot of sense to me and in some cases been directly anti-town imo. This is especially suspicious because of the fact that he is s veteran.
|
On August 05 2012 01:08 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 22:56 Erandorr wrote:On August 04 2012 22:52 Lazermonkey wrote:
Wbg: grush scum meta isn't to troll. His meta overall just doesn't make any sense. I played with him in Newbie XVI(where you actually coached me a bit so you maybe remember that as well). He made posts like this all the time and even claimed detective. Guess what? He was VT.
Lynching grush today is essentially a coinflip. I will not lynch into him today. So what exactly do you intend to do. Do you agree about WBG? If you mean agree with lynching him, then yes. His play really havn't made alot of sense to me and in some cases been directly anti-town imo. This is especially suspicious because of the fact that he is s veteran.
Then write that down in the voting thread 
|
In regards to Grush vs WBG, I did find this back fro LVI
Man, scum Grush isn't based on him having opinions. It's based on him not activating his starsenses. He was dumb and trolly but mildly helpful in listing people somewhere, enough so that maju mentioned his starsenses in LV, and Grush then posted a list of suspects, although in Grush fashion. This time, NO STARSENSE.
KURUMI RULE + NO STARSENSE REFERENCE = SCUM.
from: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/hmrAdwKTNFm
Dead obs thread for LVI
Grush did mention starsenses in this thread, so this may be his way of tipping us off that he is town with us. However he's seems so trollish that this could mean nothing. I wouldn't go as far as to discredit this though.
I'm still not a fan at all of WBG's idea to out masons this early. Whatever he says, it is a completely anti-town move and gives Mafia easy targets. WBG is also messing with our Vig's head on who to shoot. He may be directing the heat off of himself and onto the masons as targets, causing possible misfire.
I believe Erandorr and VE are both town and WBG's play is to fuck with the Vig's head and get a misfire on either, while the Mafia target the other.
|
On August 04 2012 13:59 grush57 wrote:
HOOK LINE SINKER WBG, MY TOWN META IS STARSENSES
EBWOP: Grush post in question
|
On August 05 2012 01:03 Hassybaby wrote:
The way I see it about bugs right now, two things come to mind:
1. Bugs is getting annoyed for a genuine reason in the mason.
2. Bugs is getting annoyed for the sake of getting annoyed.
I'm leaning towards the latter right now, but I'd like to see the logs to see if there's a real reason for him being annoyed, but it still doesn't explain his mason play.
That's pretty much it.
Bugs IS insulting and he IS pissed as town when someone gets on his nerves.
As mafia he's not but he's trying to look as though he is, so he has to fake it.
If bugs is mad for no reason he is faking it and therefore mafia.
If there is a genuine reason to be frustrated / mad he could be both town or mafia.
From what I saw in the thread his frustration looks awfully faked because there's no reason to freak out like that.
Which means he either fakes it or something is happening in PM-land.
I'd rather know about that kind of thing BEFORE we lynch so eran or WBG pretty please post the logs?
|
toad and hassy - I really don't think that whether or not he's faking getting pissed off is the center of the case. He would get just as pissed as scum if he thought he was getting lynched for bad reasons as he would get pissed about being mislynched as town. The key here is whether his behavior makes you think he's scum.
|
On August 05 2012 00:33 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 00:23 BioSC wrote:Yeaaaaaah, I'm not buying a WBG lynch today. You really want to lynch someone who, even if you don't agree with his play, has reasons for his actions and explains himself, over this? On August 04 2012 07:50 grush57 wrote:On August 04 2012 07:49 BioSC wrote:On August 04 2012 07:48 grush57 wrote:
NONONONO MAFIA REFLECTED THE HEAT FROM WBG TO ZEPH
##Vote: Wherebugsgo Pretty bold first post there, care to state your findings? THE STARSENSES, THEY ARE COOOOMMING TOO MEEE Yeah, not buying it. No, you are not getting away with piece of shit posting like this. Explain to us where you stand on wbg. And no, saying "he is explaining himself" does not cut it. Read everything we have written about him and give us your opinion on why you think he deserves to live. Then read strongandbigs points about grush earlier. Then come back and explain your choice
Keep your insults to yourself please.
My stance on him is about him being less scummy than Grush. I don't really care about meta, never have, probably never will. What I care about is THIS game.
Let me throw the question right back at you. Why does Grush deserve to live over WBG? There is literally nothing in your filter regarding him at all.
I mean hell, look at his reason for voting Zeph:
On August 04 2012 07:48 grush57 wrote:
NONONONO MAFIA REFLECTED THE HEAT FROM WBG TO ZEPH
##Vote: Wherebugsgo
There were 2 people on zeph at the time, one of which was a modkill a few hours later. Why is he allowed to basically throw a vote up with no good reason? I'm just not seeing a good reason to ignore that.
Do I like the way WBG handled the mason discussion? No, not particularly. My point with him "explaining himself" is that we can hold WBG accountable by his posts. What can we gather from Grush, exactly? Nothing, and if he continues to post like that, more nothing.
If you are a mason with him, as he claims, and there is something in PM land that has convinced you so thoroughly that he's scum, go ahead and post it. I would like to read it myself.
|
Yo toad still waiting for why you think zephirdd is scum. he's moved up from rainbow to full color now I see. And you've yet to make a post on him. Also how did ghost403 get on your list?
|
On August 05 2012 02:32 talismania wrote:
Yo toad still waiting for why you think zephirdd is scum. he's moved up from rainbow to full color now I see. And you've yet to make a post on him. Also how did ghost403 get on your list?
yo talis still waiting for you to post something that has something to do with what we're talking about.
I still haven't posted something about Zeph because he started out as one of the minor reads and if the latest issue of my list turns out to be wrong he's the I could be wrong about, or Ghost for that matter.
Zephirdd is not going to get lynched and I don't think it would be wise to lynch him right now although I think he's probably mafia. I'm just way more sure on WBG and Prplhz.
Posting a case on Zeph would just distract everything right now so stop asking everyone (me) about everyone else and my opinion on them and instead do something yourself.
I get that you like asking questions and that's usually a towntreat but doing nothing but asking questions at all really isn't.
I still want to see the log between Eran and WBG.
If at least one of you two guys is town (I highly think so) there is no reason not to post it and it would maybe help us figure things out no matter of WBGs alignment.
And I'd rather have it posted before one of you is dead so that we can confirm it's the real thing.
|
just a random mention:
It's 20:00 my time, that's CEST and there's a shitton of people who haven't voted yet. Get in here and vote.
The guys from Europe won't be around at the deadline. Probably not even close to the deadline.
So if you're waiting for something because it's still "so much time" until deadline: Stop it and get in here asap. The deadlines are horrible for europeans.
Oh and @Talis: Keep cool about Zeph. I can actually prove I had him on my radar way before I even mentioned him the first time. WBG's not the only one who got masoned.
|
OK Talis just claimed scum with that last post. Ignore him please.
As for WBG, I don't really care about the mason thing at all. This is what I care about.
On August 04 2012 17:47 wherebugsgo wrote:
also no, obviously I think all the other lynch candidates are inferior.
Why should we resort to trusting a vig to shoot grush? How do we even know if we have a vig? This sort of stuff really pisses me off, because it delays the inevitable. On August 04 2012 21:14 wherebugsgo wrote:
For the record both grush and prplhz are 95% scum to me.
First is that no one has really talked about prplhz between these two posts, and I doubt it can be a reading oversight because the first quote is a reply to my post which ends with On August 04 2012 12:05 slOosh wrote:
I also want some current thoughts on prplhz - talk on him ended up getting buried and I have no interest in cutting him slack when he hasn't shown anything worth cutting slack for.
How does prplhz the inferior become prplhz the 95% scum (btw a number that is totally arbitrary and means nothing)? I don't think his is a filter that drastically changes with a some rereads. Nor do I think anyone can seriously find grush so much scummier than say, talis, who is completely oblivious to the happenings in the thread. Furthermore he is flinging mud on names rather than arguments as Erandorr points out, which is something independent of the validity of his mason case.
And for everyone else who is using the argument "I would rather lynch someone like grush57 than someone like WBG", well that's some blatant favoritism over the other no-presence lurkers and it just shows how little you care about figuring stuff out now since the same problem will be here tomorrow. If you are town, get off your bum and put some effort in.
##Vote: Wherebugsgo
|
I really think the most important issue for us right now is getting people active. Were giving mafia too much space to hide.
Nevertheless, I'm voting wbg right now though that can change.
For sure watching zeph though, but I need a better case.
|
|
|
It's 7 on WBG (self votes don't count), and I'm thinking it's plurality voting since that's the only place you would resolve ties. SO just gotta make sure he has the highest vote count.
|
yeah yeah yeah I should actually analyze stuff =/ Toad, you could post a couple sentences stating your reasons for being suspicious of zephirdd/ghost403 in a spoiler tag or something. Sloosh will yell at you but who cares. I mean you've gotta have SOME sort of reason.
I honestly don't know why the logs between wbg and ve and between wbg and eran haven't been made public yet. Hell if I were mason I would invite all my masonees to a qt and then post the link in the thread if I got outed or outed myself.
______________
My thoughts:
zephirdd I don't think is as scummy as I once thought he was. Think I already said this but fine to reiterate I suppose. I remember that his meta as town is actually to be scummy. Like in PickYourPoison I genuinely thought he was scum, and I was scum and knew he was town he was that scummy. In this game, the thing that made me suspicious was the way he leaped at opportunities to point out all the littlest inconsistencies in people's posts, even if they were plausibly inconsequential. I also didn't like how he hopped onto a wagon on me in a semi-desperate way. People were pressuring him and he's all "uh btw I made a case on talis!". On the other hand, what makes me think he's less scummy now is the way the wagon formed on him. In particular the post by count dropula raised all sorts of red flags with me.
toad I think is maybe a little more scummy than I thought. Originally I thought he was scummy because of how he latched on to me without like really latching on to me. I mean I was all red letters before anyone else is and reading back, as I said before, it never really felt like it. I dunno it's strange. I also think it's funny how he accuses me of being scum because my first post wasn't like my normal first posts as town, and then he cites a first post I made as scum.
I've played with toad before as mafia and the way he thinks about the game can be summed up in the QT here: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/2qFy6VgjSnW
He's very opportunistic when it comes to lynches. He goes for low-hanging fruit. He will switch his top targets without much explanation (HiroPro - Navillus D1 PYP, Talis - WBG D1 here). He will push vet lynches (from the QT: "I'm trying to get people lynch into vets or into hiro.") with references to team balance. Here's an apropos quote from that thread on the topic:
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet
Another thing I have in mind right now is balance. Do you really think a team like Rad proposed (Toad + Risk + Zephirdd?) is likely? Against Town-WBG, against Town-Rad, against Town-Prplhz, against Town-Kurumi?
Those are all here playing mafia way longer than I am, especially Rad and WBG. WBG already flipped town. Do you honestly believe someone would make a team like that? That's btw the only reason I question Rad right now. Balancewise it would make a lot of sense if he's mafia but I can't find a thing that brings me to that conclusion except for this very thought.
Old Post
So he's my strongest scum read but it's still only like 65%. Usually I read setups completely different than he does and therefore we don't understand the other's opinions there. So that stuff is genuine enough. I'm also somewhat conflicted by the wbg thing because wbg doesn't look like a boyscout either.
wbg
uhhhh I dunno what happened there. strongandbig I still think is town (if you're not well done) and I respect his analysis alot, particularly the game theory post that he brought up that wbg himself made.
also the part where wbg rehashed that "why would I out the masons when I could just tell my scum team" argument smelled wrong. That argument in general doesn't really fly for me. Scum team doesn't really gain anything from knowing who the masons are in private and therefore fucking with the thread by outing them doesn't make a difference for them. In fact it may give them an easier time taking shooting them because they don't have to worry about VE posting the logs at the last minute, revealing who he talked to and thus who would know he's mason or something like that. By the same token, outing them as town is understandable as well. Although I don't think I would have done so immediately but maybe that's just me.
also also wbg voted for himself which is odd as hell.
and whoever asked him what date his finals were might be on to something too. although it is the middle of summer so maybe that was a joke/reference.
grush is worthless and if we're in a game together ever again and I'm vig I will policy shoot him. That said there's also like a hundred other lurkers in this game that would be fine for a policy lynch. Not to mention wbg himself as a policy lynch for voting himself I suppose.
Other random thoughts:
-Hassybaby is underperforming in my opinion. For some reason I expected more activity although I admit I don't know his meta. Somewhat suspicious though.
-Countdropula seemed highly suspicious in the post he made about zephirdd as I mentioned before. felt like a bandwagon. Also I don't like inactive smurfs.
-This game feels like a 12 person game yet supposedly there's 24 of you. The inactivity in general means this one is going to be pretty easy for scum.
|
On August 05 2012 03:27 slOosh wrote:
It's 7 on WBG (self votes don't count), and I'm thinking it's plurality voting since that's the only place you would resolve ties. SO just gotta make sure he has the highest vote count.
yeah I forgot about the plurality. It looks like plurality or simple majority but who knows, that kind of stuff is wrong quite often in OP's because people forget to change it.
|
On August 05 2012 02:58 Toadesstern wrote:
just a random mention:
It's 20:00 my time, that's CEST and there's a shitton of people who haven't voted yet. Get in here and vote.
The guys from Europe won't be around at the deadline. Probably not even close to the deadline.
So if you're waiting for something because it's still "so much time" until deadline: Stop it and get in here asap. The deadlines are horrible for europeans.
Oh and @Talis: Keep cool about Zeph. I can actually prove I had him on my radar way before I even mentioned him the first time. WBG's not the only one who got masoned.
actually I knew you were masoned the instant you said you thought you had said something before about zephirdd when you hadn't done so in the thread =P
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
