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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 12:43 Fig wrote:
I have always thought that infestors were too much of an all-purpose caster. They literally could counter groups of units or single stronger units. Now they can only do the former, which means that you can't just blindly mass them anymore. Much better overall for the game to increase unit diversity.
The day you aren't allowed to have more then 4 massive units on the field at once as terran and toss, is the day this change becomes balanced. :>
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On September 09 2011 12:40 StoLiVe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 12:38 Xequecal wrote:On September 09 2011 12:27 Mjolnir wrote:
Honestly... god forbid they give people time to figure it out, or god forbid people actually... you know... FOCUS THE FUCKING INFESTORS. Focus the infestors.....with what? Your colossi that just got parasited? Your templar? Nope, feedback and NP have same range, you can't stop NP from going off. Void rays? Zerg can easily make enough infestor to mass parasite all of those, too. You going to move your stalkers forward into their roach ball to shoot them down? They'll get annihilated in five seconds. This change is fine and needed vs. Protoss. The real problem is Zerg needs NP against Thors.....what the hell can you do against thor/hellion now? It beats literally everything. Phoenix is awesome to stop infestor's mc if you lift them they lose the mind control
Pick the toss army comp, though.
Stargate openings have all but dissapeared. You can no longer kill anything with a econ stargate opening. A void and 3 rays can't kill a hatch anymore.
So you would have to get a stargate early mid game. So there would be a time when zerg would have infestor roach ling against your sentry stalker stargate. Brutal, brutal destruction.
Or you add the stargate after colli? Or after templar? What if they hit you before you get phoenix? What if they mass drone before you get phoenix. I'm honestly interested in a discussion. I was befuddled with infestors, but because this change might not go through, I'd appreciate any input you have on countering them.
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Wow I doubt this change will go through. This seems overkill.
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On September 09 2011 12:47 Legend` wrote:
About time for the neural change. Now PvZ might actually be possible lol
... it actually became impossible, for Zerg.
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On September 09 2011 12:46 Darclite wrote:
Just want to point out that everyone should keep in mind the infestor change is coupled with the ultra change and ultras (well upgraded I'll admit) are decent units now that they have a much faster build time.
yup because you can save up, survive to and get enough ultras to defend the imminent timing attacks that will occur now......
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On September 09 2011 12:47 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 12:40 StoLiVe wrote:On September 09 2011 12:38 Xequecal wrote:On September 09 2011 12:27 Mjolnir wrote:
Honestly... god forbid they give people time to figure it out, or god forbid people actually... you know... FOCUS THE FUCKING INFESTORS. Focus the infestors.....with what? Your colossi that just got parasited? Your templar? Nope, feedback and NP have same range, you can't stop NP from going off. Void rays? Zerg can easily make enough infestor to mass parasite all of those, too. You going to move your stalkers forward into their roach ball to shoot them down? They'll get annihilated in five seconds. This change is fine and needed vs. Protoss. The real problem is Zerg needs NP against Thors.....what the hell can you do against thor/hellion now? It beats literally everything. Phoenix is awesome to stop infestor's mc if you lift them they lose the mind control Pick the toss army comp, though. Stargate openings have all but dissapeared. You can no longer kill anything with a econ stargate opening. A void and 3 rays can't kill a hatch anymore. So you would have to get a stargate early mid game. So there would be a time when zerg would have infestor roach ling against your sentry stalker stargate. Brutal, brutal destruction. Or you add the stargate after colli? Or after templar? What if they hit you before you get phoenix? What if they mass drone before you get phoenix. I'm honestly interested in a discussion. I was befuddled with infestors, but because this change might not go through, I'd appreciate any input you have on countering them.
I understand but i see some game where pro gamer went phoenix when they saw zerg got a lot of infestor and they done pretty well. But i don't remember witch game 
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honestly it was stupid how infestors counter both high tech units and low hp units with fungle, when you see players make 30 infestors and its not a bad thing then the game is broken, simple as that.
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On September 09 2011 12:48 bluestuff wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 12:46 Darclite wrote:
Just want to point out that everyone should keep in mind the infestor change is coupled with the ultra change and ultras (well upgraded I'll admit) are decent units now that they have a much faster build time. yup because you can save up, survive to and get enough ultras to defend the imminent timing attacks that will occur now......
Not to mention that ultras are still pure shit. Dropping the build time does not actually solve the ultra problem.
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On September 09 2011 12:44 Beardedclam wrote:
What the hell are infestors going to parasite now? They should have made FUNGAL not root massive, not fuck with parasite.
agree 100%
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On September 09 2011 12:46 Darclite wrote:
Just want to point out that everyone should keep in mind the infestor change is coupled with the ultra change and ultras (well upgraded I'll admit) are decent units now that they have a much faster build time.
I can see how they dont want the Infestor to counter the other races T3 units, as its too versatile for a caster....but i think if Z is to use T3 tech it needs to be re-worked a bit.
Pre-broodlord timing will be tough imo and i just dont think Ultras are strong enough to counter the deathball. The buff is a good start tho, i wanna see me some BW-esque Ultra vs Archon battles
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I swear to god, if Blizzard makes it so you can't NP massive units, I will switch to Terran. I just fucking hit #1 Master with Zerg too.
Because of this change, I will also be only playing on the PTR.
NP is the only counter Zerg has to archons until broodlords, which is impossible to get even against 3 base timing pushes. Mass roach is okay, but has it's own problems against immortals and doesn't cut it against archons forever.
And Zerg has no counter to fucking colossi, it was hard enough trying to make NP work. Corruptors just don't kill Colossi fast enough, they are weaker, just as slow, lower range, and more expensive than Vikings, yet Zerg ground units die much faster than marauders. Baneling rain is lol against stalkers or air play.
And then BC's and Carriers (as rare as they show up) are ridiculously hard to deal with without NP. And motherships are a huge pain too without NP.
I don't think NP is that great against mech, you're better off with mass muta (especially if siege tank count is high, which any decent mech will do, and mass roach is better against mass thor), since BL is a better investment in gas than infestors, but it's still obnoxious.
And in ZvZ is was necessary to NP broodlords, as an option to making Corruptors, instead of games being a stupid fucking mass spine wall to broodlord/roach on 3 base.
I'm not even kidding. I will switch to terran if this change goes through.
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On September 09 2011 12:50 Knutzi wrote:
honestly it was stupid how infestors counter both high tech units and low hp units with fungle, when you see players make 30 infestors and its not a bad thing then the game is broken, simple as that.
![[image loading]](http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVUF-pzLcX9AIIEpOh-6YHVoXcNtsi-fLr1bGDyiJYyRNyLTbd86wsWRUbmA)
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Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units.
Oh wow. What do Zergs think of this?
The only thing I found stupid of Neural Parasite was neural parasiting Motherships and huge capital ships like Battlecruisers and Carriers.
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On September 09 2011 12:47 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 12:40 StoLiVe wrote:On September 09 2011 12:38 Xequecal wrote:On September 09 2011 12:27 Mjolnir wrote:
Honestly... god forbid they give people time to figure it out, or god forbid people actually... you know... FOCUS THE FUCKING INFESTORS. Focus the infestors.....with what? Your colossi that just got parasited? Your templar? Nope, feedback and NP have same range, you can't stop NP from going off. Void rays? Zerg can easily make enough infestor to mass parasite all of those, too. You going to move your stalkers forward into their roach ball to shoot them down? They'll get annihilated in five seconds. This change is fine and needed vs. Protoss. The real problem is Zerg needs NP against Thors.....what the hell can you do against thor/hellion now? It beats literally everything. Phoenix is awesome to stop infestor's mc if you lift them they lose the mind control Pick the toss army comp, though. Stargate openings have all but dissapeared. You can no longer kill anything with a econ stargate opening. A void and 3 rays can't kill a hatch anymore. So you would have to get a stargate early mid game. So there would be a time when zerg would have infestor roach ling against your sentry stalker stargate. Brutal, brutal destruction. Or you add the stargate after colli? Or after templar? What if they hit you before you get phoenix? What if they mass drone before you get phoenix. I'm honestly interested in a discussion. I was befuddled with infestors, but because this change might not go through, I'd appreciate any input you have on countering them.
Stargate openings have disappeared? I see stargate in 95% of the zvp's I play. So I have no idea what you are talking about there.
Templar are a great counter to infestors in just experience feedback hits before fungel + neural. The infestor just disappears instantly. 4+ colossi with a lot of ground support is good vs infestors as long as you are paying attention. If he's going ling/infestor zealot/templar does amazing and FF's to keep infestors back out of range so they can't fungel is good to.
I face protosses who use the phoenixes just to lift up infestors (as most zergs don't get corruptors/hydra's when going infestors) and sure you can fungel the phoenix's but you just wait till the fighting actually starts before using them. I mean infestors were strong but with this change imo zvp is going to be near impossible to win as roach/infestor will lose to colossi still. I mean guess we'll have to see if this change goes through I can just see a hell of a time playing zvp (even though now I still hate the mu  ).
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On September 09 2011 12:48 Empirimancer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 12:47 Legend` wrote:
About time for the neural change. Now PvZ might actually be possible lol ... it actually became impossible, for Zerg.
?!?
As a Protoss player, if this change goes ahead.. all I have to worry about is how to deal with early game zerg (runaway economy that zergs can get right now) and not worry about that and how the hell I'm going to deal with infesters. Both issues together has given us a pvz match-up where the protoss is fighting an uphill battle the entire game, and it sucks.
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It's obviously a huge nerf, but seriously, just making infestors was kind of ridiculous. There has to be more than one unit they don't counter. Without neural on massive units, they still have the ability to lock units in place and are still the best harasser of all the casters.
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Oh man colossus based P armies are going to be rough, my only hope against that was to get infestors + np to hold it off. Corrupters are hard to work with imo, if you over make them just in the slightest the real threat becomes the blink stalkers, if you under produce them the colo stay alive and roll your ground. It's tough to find a good balance, infestors are so much more reliable.
Will be very interesting to see if this goes through, the damage reduction on fungal is totally warranted but I'm not sure if the neural change is.
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like what fucking reason would there be for not allowing NP on massive. wtf.
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On September 09 2011 12:50 Knutzi wrote:
honestly it was stupid how infestors counter both high tech units and low hp units with fungle, when you see players make 30 infestors and its not a bad thing then the game is broken, simple as that.
This is true but the problem is zerg is shit right now. But most of ppl didn't realize because infestor was op and they balance a little bit. I'm ok with the nerf if blizzard buff some unit. I don't know maybe... eh... HYDRA ???
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Neural not being able to target Massive units equals to remove NP from the game. You won't use it on a stalker or a zelot.
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EPT
