EPTTwo queens will handily beat two banshees. I think banshees need buff because they're priced more expensive. Do you see why the previous statement is retarded?
1 Banshee beats 1 Queen with almost 1/2 hp left.
Z v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 23
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monitor
United States2404 Posts
1 Banshee beats 1 Queen with almost 1/2 hp left. | ||
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StarcraftQuebec
Canada95 Posts
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raph
United States204 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:02 GodIsNotHere wrote: Except hydras in a small group will eat a thor alive its just not an effective counter at all and the day someone goes "Oh hes getting mutas... Time to get some ghosts!" instead of just getting marines I'll punch a kitten. so what do you do when someone thor drops you 6 minutes in? and go watch jinro play bio vs zerg, he likes ghosts for infestors and mutas. its no straight counter to it but adding it into your army makes a big difference. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:08 monitor wrote: 1 Banshee beats 1 Queen with almost 1/2 hp left. 2 Queens will transfuse each other... | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:06 GodIsNotHere wrote: See this is a good point!, Zerg loves to complain about mech but terran doesn't have many other options since Bio gets destroyed by any Zerg with half a brain. But then you get answers like: micro better! I don't know what those zergs are smoking but I can't micro my army vs speedlings followed by banelings. Bio is seriously impossible vs zerg, and I'm scared when the time comes that zergs will start dropping everywhere when I'm going mech. By the time I can manage to get my third, the zerg will have 5 bases and he will be shitting ultra's and broodlords like zerglings. | ||
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Tritonus
Denmark125 Posts
On August 16 2010 05:54 Tanatos wrote: Come on, even korean pro zergs are saying terran is imba. But they are still lookign for answer and here are some replays about it. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56713-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56715-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant T player is definetly not a progamer, but Z player also dont really have big name. I am sure Z can find answer without help of new patches. What is your point with these replays? There is absolutely nothing "new" or special about it, besides the fact that both terrans he plays against being really bad. 1st terran has really really bad hellion micro and just keeps sending them to their deaths, blindly makes thors even though he scanned z's roach army multiple times. While the 2nd terran has terrible to almost no scouting at all and really poor micro. | ||
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orangejuice
2 Posts
However it is true that zerg has fewer units and fewer options of play styles as a result. For that matter you do not see many threads which complain about zerg being overpowered... More importantly the razors edge that good zerg players have to take with economy vs army production is inherently unstable. To win later on you must be vulnerable early in the game. It just seems that zerg does not feel like a swarming race right now hence my balance suggestion. Leave all units the way they are which is pretty damn close to being balanced and instead increase the spawn rates of larvae and maybe for fun throw in another larvae on the spawn larvae ability. So what are the upsides to this. A zerg player can balance easier between choosing drones or units. Early game all-in rushes are easier to defend against. You actually feel like you can build an army. At the same time you are still restricted to the resources available to you. Most importantly it is a shadow buff. Zerg will simply feel stronger, no specific unit will get stupidly overpowered and as a result spammed and the renerfed. It is just a subtle boost which could greatly improve the feel and balance of the race. Feel free to flame, comment or counterpoint. It just seemed like a good way to address a very complicated balancing situation. | ||
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raph
United States204 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:07 KissBlade wrote: How does two queens not beat two banshees? And I agree, roach vs thor is awful. i suggest you go test it out. 2 queens lose easily. and on the transfuse, maybe if its late game and youve got spare energy but sorry in the early game you need it for larvae for units to repel attacks and creep so you can actually defend an expo. EDIT: for grammar | ||
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GodIsNotHere
Canada395 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:08 raph wrote: so what do you do when someone thor drops you 6 minutes in? and go watch jinro play bio vs zerg, he likes ghosts for infestors and mutas. its no straight counter to it but adding it into your army makes a big difference. Not saying there isn't s weakness that needs to be addressed for early game Zerg but in the case of that game I'd say the ghost were to deal with the infestors. It not that ghosts don't do well vs mutas but its just not as efficient as marines. | ||
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Nooborghini
Canada136 Posts
On August 16 2010 06:52 KissBlade wrote: You took a very SMALL part of what I wrote on that and tried to quote that alone. I didn't state that the counters don't exist but you don't walk out with your Z army and POOF there's an INSTANT terran counter there already standing in place. I mean, dear god really? If the terran hard counters your army, you wont' win it? I mean DAMN, that's the surprise of a life time. The big problem isn't the hard counter system. The big problem is the fact that terrans can guess wrong and can build up to a hard counter in the mean time. ^^ Double goes for you too. Yes there isn't a INSTANT POOF of random counter for that unit but going back on the MAIN THEORY of my arguement. We are limited to 3 units. Lings, Banes and Roaches. They don't need to scout us early game. They`ll need to scout on mid game due to our T2+ if we're going Hydras, Mutas or what not. We don't have a diverse starting game as other races do. Protoss? Void rays, Colossi + stalkers, Stalkers, Zealots. The list is endless by the time we get our first muta/hydra out, let alone the Lair. Terran? Reaper, 3rax, Tanks, Banshee, Viking. The list is endless. We have 3 units that we can use. Lings + Bane lings, Lings + Roaches, Roaches + Banes. They don't need to think hard about early game, they expect Lings obv ASAP. If we go Roaches? We won't have enough gas for upgrades such as fast swapping to mutas or hydras. They keep us confined in one-two bases. This is all theorycraft but think about it. Why should we assume, voids, pheonix, reaper, 3rax, etc when they can just assume okay. Lings, Roaches or Bane. Blam, done. Our lair opening time is TOO slow. IMO. That's basically all that. Unless they put Hydras in T1.5 like they did in SC2, I really don't see a threat from a zerg player early game. PLEASE don't throw 6-8 pools in my face. Self explainatory. BUT If they did put hydras into T1.5, they will have to nerf hydras or something because they`ll be TOO imba for Tier 1 infantry. EASILY. They just have to fix something, personally Lair time upgrade. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:12 raph wrote: i suggest you go test it out. 2 queens lose easily. and on the transfuse, maybe if its late game and youve got spare energy but sorry in the early game you need it for larvae for units to repel attacks and creep so you can actually defend and expo. ... You are really damn dense to not realize the original argument was set up to show that using cost in a vacuum scenario is stupid. That or you are just trying on purpose to not read now. ^ I never denied that flexibility of the Zerg early game is a problem. Don't know why you're throwing it in my face as if I didn't already know this. | ||
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yB.TeH
Germany414 Posts
just look at"Race distribution by league" http://sc2ranks.com/stats it's more likely for a z to be in diamond then anywhere else for t it's the opposite they will end up in bronze btw you shouldn't value dimaga/idra/artosis too much. dimaga cheated in tsl2 and got banned, idra and artosis are well know for imba crying since they played tvp the first time in bw(carries and dt) | ||
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raph
United States204 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:14 KissBlade wrote: ... You are really damn dense to not realize the original argument was set up to show that using cost in a vacuum scenario is stupid. That or you are just trying on purpose to not read now. ^ I never denied that flexibility of the Zerg early game is a problem. Don't know why you're throwing it in my face as if I didn't already know this. im not saying a higher priced army should always win, but to try and point out the banshee vs queen matchup to make a point just affirms the notion. what im saying is for example 8 lots = 800 minerals 30 lings = 750 minerals, 8 lots can avoid a surround and win easily losing maybe 2 units but if the surround goes off lings can win with 5 or so lings left. vs terran there are so many situations where you can come in from 10 angles and have awesome positioning and still get blown of the water with equivalent or even much higher food counts without putting a dent in the army. | ||
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Xiran
United States50 Posts
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Nooborghini
Canada136 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:14 KissBlade wrote: ... You are really damn dense to not realize the original argument was set up to show that using cost in a vacuum scenario is stupid. That or you are just trying on purpose to not read now. ^ I never denied that flexibility of the Zerg early game is a problem. Don't know why you're throwing it in my face as if I didn't already know this. I'm not throwing it in your face, I'm saying this as a general thing. The counters above are indeed not exaggerated. It would be exaggerating if they had ALL of those units at that time when you had X units. Yes skill > build order. It should be like this but clearly, this isn't the case. If the skills are = with each other. Terran will obviously come on top unless you see your opponent doing their thing and he hasn't even thought about scouting. We will most likely win if he/she will be off in his/her own little world where just mining, build a good army is the #1 priority cause they won't know ANYTHING we're planning mid-late game. | ||
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Nooborghini
Canada136 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:20 raph wrote: im not saying a higher priced army should always win, but to try and point out the banshee vs queen matchup to make a point just affirms the notion. Agreed, back to SC1. Scourge. | ||
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hizBALLIN
United States163 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:11 orangejuice wrote: I think many people whine too much about the overall weakness of zerg. I play zerg (lower level diamond) and for the most part things feel ok, if you want to choose a race which revolves around containment, reaction and flexibility zerg is probably for you. However it is true that zerg has fewer units and fewer options of play styles as a result. For that matter you do not see many threads which complain about zerg being overpowered... More importantly the razors edge that good zerg players have to take with economy vs army production is inherently unstable. To win later on you must be vulnerable early in the game. It just seems that zerg does not feel like a swarming race right now hence my balance suggestion. Leave all units the way they are which is pretty damn close to being balanced and instead increase the spawn rates of larvae and maybe for fun throw in another larvae on the spawn larvae ability. So what are the upsides to this. A zerg player can balance easier between choosing drones or units. Early game all-in rushes are easier to defend against. You actually feel like you can build an army. At the same time you are still restricted to the resources available to you. Most importantly it is a shadow buff. Zerg will simply feel stronger, no specific unit will get stupidly overpowered and as a result spammed and the renerfed. It is just a subtle boost which could greatly improve the feel and balance of the race. Feel free to flame, comment or counterpoint. It just seemed like a good way to address a very complicated balancing situation. This doesn't really deal with Zerg's teching issues, which are require a decent amount of time and scouting to do unless you plan on wasting larva and resources making potentially unnecessary stuff "just in case." Even with extra larva, you're still spending money on things that don't necessarily help you win the game, simply help reduce the chance of you losing it. Zerg simply needs a more robust unit lineup. A small tweak here and there would help it; nerfing terran can potentially upset the TvP game (of which I'm not terribly informed), buffing zerg seems like the most natural answer. The buffs probably ought not be sweeping and huge, but with a map pool that favours cliffs overlooking bases (which should change with time, since it will be largely user driven), zerg lacks avenues to get large concaves with their armies. Since they cannot do that, their units do not scale well due to their melee/short range nature. A cliff-walking harass unit would be an interesting addition, and putting it fairly low in the tech tree would actually allow for more than the very few potential openings for zerg. I'm not necessarily suggesting that it's completely necessarily, but with the current awful map pools, it is definitely an option. | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
It's fine that blizz wants the creep to buff the speed of zerg units to make sure people want to actually spread creep, but every damn Z unit is so fucking slow off creep, they cant even outrun shit. Oh, and stimmed marauders are way too fast while we're on the subject of unit speed. | ||
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Bubbadub
United States156 Posts
I have always been frustrated about going 1 base roach vs hellion / marine -> fast expo build and NOT being able to do any damage (other than delaying their 2nd which they lift into their base). Even though roach is "supposed" to counter both marines AND hellions. They can be caught completely off-guard and have their wall busted, lose some scv's and recover like nothing happened. | ||
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raph
United States204 Posts
On August 16 2010 07:26 hizBALLIN wrote: This doesn't really deal with Zerg's teching issues, which are require a decent amount of time and scouting to do unless you plan on wasting larva and resources making potentially unnecessary stuff "just in case." Even with extra larva, you're still spending money on things that don't necessarily help you win the game, simply help reduce the chance of you losing it. Zerg simply needs a more robust unit lineup. A small tweak here and there would help it; because nerfing terran can potentially upset the TvP game (of which I'm not terribly informed), buffing zerg seems like the most natural answer. The buffs probably ought not be sweeping and huge, but with a map pool that favours cliffs overlooking bases (which should change with time, since it will be largely user driven), zerg lacks avenues to get large concaves with their armies. Since they cannot do that, their units do not scale well do to their melee/short range nature. A cliff-walking harass unit would be an interesting addition, and putting it fairly low in the tech tree would actually allow for more than the very few potential openings for zerg. I'm not necessarily suggesting that it's completely necessarily, but with the current awful map pools, it is definitely an option. exactly. as zerg you're playing not to lose, instead of to win... | ||
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