EPTActually, I'm wondering this as well, specifically, why is marv your choice?
I Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia - Page 22
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Actually, I'm wondering this as well, specifically, why is marv your choice? | ||
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Vivax
21954 Posts
I'll start with an exquisite collection of quotes from various filters: Starting with My top scumread, Risen + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. Written in 8th page of the game, when there was a fair bit of discussion already going on. He just tried to not attack gonzaw after trying to discredit gonz's previous post, enemies are bad for scum players. + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. More apologies for not doing anything in the 9th page of the game. + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. He wrote this about....Drooopbear.When? After writing this: + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. We have a scumslip, gentlemen. It's obviously normal that you first list the scum options for a player when your actual opinion of him is that he's town. This is an argument-intention inconsistency I spoke about before. It wouldn't happen to a townie intending to conclude with his belief that the player is actually town. He actually noticed it too late, adding the town option in the following post. ##Unvote ##Vote Risen | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 13 2012 04:47 gonzaw wrote: About Vivax: (Fuck I need to use these tags again >_>) Marv, I don't agree with your read on Vivax either I don't see a "relatively noob" scum posting like this as soon as the game starts. He "jokingly" accused 3 people by that point, and seemed cheerful about it. That's not how noob scum play (why would they try to "joke" accuse people if it puts them more in the spotlight as SOON as the game starts?), hell they even rarely post at the very beginning of the game at all, and they never appear cheerful or anything. Why? Because they are scum that's why, they have to check their scum QT, check their buddies, talk to them, think how they are going to proceed, etc. Someone more experienced could pull this off, but I even doubt that. That's what made me think Radfield wasn't scum on iGrok's game and I was right, basically no scum jumps right into the action at the very start of the game and start joking around and posting without hesitating at all. I also don't see him posting like this as scum. His vote+unvote on S&B wouldn't make much sense to do it as scum. Why would he do that as scum? Why would he vote someone when almost nobody else had voted at all, and then unvote him immediately after when that guy posts and never speak of him again? It doesn't seem to cause any confusion or push any scum agenda, since if he wanted to cast doubt on S&B he could have continued to do so after his post. That's not entirely definitive to think he's town, but for me it's VERY definitive for not lynching him on D1. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On July 14 2012 03:10 austinmcc wrote: Actually, I'm wondering this as well, specifically, why is marv your choice? town read and he's smart gonz is town too imo but his day 1 reads are usually meh at best no offense | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:49 gonzaw wrote: Scum don't usually defend other guys and accuse people....? Could you be a little bit more specific? What about the rest of his posts? Scum don't usually defend people with good reasoning, like i think drop did. Also, he is aggressive and willing to take on the loudest person here (you) which means he's not afraid of the attention, another thing scum is unlikely to do | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
I'm happy with this direction right now though. As I said I think Risen has a decent chance at flipping scum. ##unvote ##vote Risen | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
Also, does anybody else not like how Vivax went from 0 to 60 on Risen just as the bandwaggon on Risen was gathering steam? I'm really not sure if I find Vivax or Keirathi more suspicious right now. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
Townie points for DropBear: - He has a clear, concise posting style. - He is forward with the few reads he has. Quick aside. These are very easy behaviors to imitate. I think DropBear is a good player and it's possible that he is manufacturing this style of play. Scummy points for Dropbear: I'll defend Milton for you  He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM Vivax talismania He defends me. Unlike Mattchew, I find defending a player can be a strong strategy for scum. It makes a player look forthright with their reads in the short term, and, if DropBear ever flips red, I immediately get flak for the fact that he defended me. I don't think I've done enough to move beyond a null read for most players. DropBear's town read of me seems manufactured. Also, please note the section I've bolded in the post. In my experience scum will put up a false mask of confidence in hopes of getting townies to sheep their viewpoints. Statements like "you should be less obvious in defending your buddy" and "this because Vivax is scum (this quote is from a later post)" reek of putting up a false sense of confidence. I don't think any town player can be that confident in their reads at this point. I'd also like to point people's attention to DropBear's "defense." WOLOLOLOLOL nice OMGUS tali! So I'm aggressive? Did you forget Bastard 2 already? When I shouted and screamed to kill only 2 players the entire time I was alive? Plus the examples you give of me being disruptive and aggressive are just firm statements. How is strongly disagreeing being disruptive and trollish? And narrow focused? It's better to focus on a couple of people than splurge shit on EVERYONE like you have done wouldn't you say? Your case on me positively REEKS of being manufactured. Nope, I think DropBear's defense reeks of being manufactured. Labeling something OMGUS is a great way of defending something without actually defending the content of it or giving it credence. It's the same concept of defending oneself by labeling something WIFOM. I think DropBear has a really good chance of flipping scum based on these reasons. Please look into his play a bit more. ##UnVote: talismania ##Vote: DropBear I see the points being made in talismania's defense and I think I was guilty of a case of tunnel vision. By no means is he a town read to me, but I think DropBear is more likely to flip scum. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
@ sciberbia I would be interested in hearing your opinion of DropBear. @ s0Lstice Are you still in the thread? What are your opinions on DropBear? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 14 2012 03:14 Vivax wrote: Thanks for reminding me, gonzaw. I'll start with an exquisite collection of quotes from various filters: Starting with My top scumread, Risen + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. Written in 8th page of the game, when there was a fair bit of discussion already going on. He just tried to not attack gonzaw after trying to discredit gonz's previous post, enemies are bad for scum players. + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. More apologies for not doing anything in the 9th page of the game. + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. He wrote this about....Drooopbear.When? After writing this: + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. We have a scumslip, gentlemen. It's obviously normal that you first list the scum options for a player when your actual opinion of him is that he's town. This is an argument-intention inconsistency I spoke about before. It wouldn't happen to a townie intending to conclude with his belief that the player is actually town. He actually noticed it too late, adding the town option in the following post. ##Unvote ##Vote Risen What about Dropbear and Keirathi? On July 14 2012 03:49 sciberbia wrote: I find the cases against Risen unconvincing. Sure he hasn't posted all that much, but is that really alignment indicative? I see it as much more of a busytell than a scumtell. Also, does anybody else not like how Vivax went from 0 to 60 on Risen just as the bandwaggon on Risen was gathering steam? I'm really not sure if I find Vivax or Keirathi more suspicious right now. This raised some alarms to me as well. I'm not that sure about Vivax being town (even though I said he wasn't likely scum because of him being too cheerful early on :/). I'm not that sure about talis either since I'd expect him to be more invested in discussions instead of accusing Dropbear and disappearing. I still think Keirathi is scummy...although some stuff (like that last post where he urges Dropbear to reconsider Vivax being scum) made me doubt that. Well, I'm going away and I'll be back 1 hour before the deadline, hopefully I can make up my mind by then. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
Looks like my vote will be staying on Vivax. I really thought austin's case on me that concluded with a town read was just scummy b/c seriously who goes into that much detail just to end up buddying me? (Goes to the whole, he knows I'm town and therefor just found some stuff in my past games to support his "town-read" case) I'll be gathering everything on Vivax into a single post, but I really don't think we should be lynching anyone else. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
On July 13 2012 21:51 Vivax wrote: Ok Milton, your defense is quite good. I suspected you for going with towns' sentiment regarding talis and getting an easy lynch target, and to be honest I still feel that the arguments against him aren't very strong. He's in a bad corner cause of his proposition, in page 2 of his filter he stopped talking about the plan, then started calling out people before he got forced into a defensive position again. + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 05:49 talismania wrote: Time to poke the hornet's nest again dropbear what's your response to this (below)? The way I see it, you made a post asking vivax some questions with some implied suspicion maybe. Then marv votes vivax and you eagerly hop on the wagon. When called out, you say you called him out for being suspicious the page earlier, but the only post you made in reference to him was just the one where you asked him questions. You never actually called him out for being suspicious as you said. If there is something I detest, is when someone gets accused for defending himself, like you did, Milton. Defending yourself is playing to win, from each alignments perspective. It's only logical that a guy who has to counter endless arguments can't be actively scumhunting, but Talis posted his reads already on page 1 before people started accusing him so heavily: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) + Show Spoiler + marvellosity On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzaw On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote: So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. Mattchew On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solstice On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Keirathi On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote: Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBear On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote: This is silly. This isn't going to happen and would just waste time. On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbig On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice I sure see the effort to post reads and clear stances here. The responses to his plan have quite some potential. Cause I think your arguments made against talis are inflated and not good, I can't believe you to be town yet. In fact, I may not be able to debunk your case against talis, but I still have an overall bad impression of you, Milton. Another thing in your disfavor: Your defense from s0lstices points is actually an attack. You don't seem to have pushed back his arguments regarding you, you rather tried to discredit him for inconsistence regarding meta, that's a pretty OMGUS/scummy type of defense imo. I'll post more about Keirathi and Dropbear soon, they offer quite interesting connections. Gonna try to interprete Dropbears mistake and draw conclusions. Also Vivax, I'd like you to talk about this some. You start out by (I assume) clearing Milton of suspicion. Suspected is past tense. Then you go on about how bad Milton's case was against Talis, add another point against him in how he attacked me after being accused. You conclude in the middle that you can't say he's town yet, but you have a bad impression of him. This meandering is strange. You cleared him at the start of the post, and then tip-toe back to near where you were before on him. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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Vivax
21954 Posts
On July 14 2012 03:49 sciberbia wrote: I find the cases against Risen unconvincing. Sure he hasn't posted all that much, but is that really alignment indicative? I see it as much more of a busytell than a scumtell. Also, does anybody else not like how Vivax went from 0 to 60 on Risen just as the bandwaggon on Risen was gathering steam? I'm really not sure if I find Vivax or Keirathi more suspicious right now. LOL sciberbia, I am bandwagoning? Tell me then, who was the first to vote for Risen? Here you are defending him not by attacking the arguments against him, but his attacker. That's the type of defense one can employ for scumbuddies with less risk. I really hope we lynch Risen today, cause if he's scum this slip by yours will mean you're next, I'll take care of it in that case. And fyi, I have a townread on Keirathi. His posts look pro-town to me, the only thing that bugs me is that he only posted reads about a few people, along with calling out some to specify things, but he says his schedule doesn't allow much time. He also criticizes the use of meta by some people, which I think is also ok cause meta shouldn't be the way to get your top reads. I won't vote Keirathi today. DropBear made a possible slip, which even Keirathi pointed out. This is important cause that slip might have turned out to be in Keirathis favor and yet he pointed it out. That action reads town to me. + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 17:02 DropBear wrote: Oh whoops that was a mistake, i meant to say Milton. I'm unsure on you. Tbh, I don't know what to think of DropBear from this slip. Right now I have a null read on him, also looking at his other posts. Doesn't look like he fears exposion, so I'll assume he is town for now. Maybe he made that slip cause he knew Keirathi is town, but ignore this since it's super speculative  | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On July 14 2012 04:09 Risen wrote: Guess what? There aren't any sheeple townies in this game. On July 14 2012 02:18 Mattchew wrote: I am going to sheep marv, on solistice most likely lol sorry just couldn't resist pointing this out | ||
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