TL Mafia LVII - Page 21

Maverick32x

United States311 Posts

September 04 2012 04:17 GMT

#401

Hey guys- got a chance to catch up and I have a couple thoughts.

First- Not totally comfortable voting Mattchew at this point.. I understand the potential for lying about the role claim.. and I'm not a big fan of role claiming in general... HOWEVER- I'd like to reiterate BlackMamba's post that said something to the tune of "ITT- Townies arguing with Townies" because I find that people are so quick to blame each other for stupid stuff that we end up wasting the first couple days with literally zero reason for voting someone besides "They drew a picture"....

That being said- I'd like to draw a little bit of attention to the first voter for whom I feel like I can make an actual observation on- Toadesstern.

The reason I want to focus on that is just because of the speed at which he strikes out just makes me wonder why that's beneficial from a town perspective? And I'm just wondering if he just wanted to try to promote chaos right away?? Also- consistently attacking other posters seems to be a trend....

Hopeless1der

United States5836 Posts

September 04 2012 04:18 GMT

#402

Supposing we table the nosy-neighbor discussion(which appears to still be going strong), I would like to point out my take on Forumite:

On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:

Show nested quote +

Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway.

"We're lynching you anyway"

Not cool. First, I disagree with the notion that revealing yourself as a nosy neighbor is scummy. Oh wait, Forumite didn't really say that. He didn't really say much of anything here if you ask me, but back to the point of "lynching you anyways", I don't like the blanket statements from Forumite. Here's another one:

On September 04 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:

Show nested quote +

It sounded weird. It´s common for the voteleader to be lynched unless he claims (convincingly).

As an aside, "It sounded weird" is not a phrase I like to see. Immediately makes me suspicious.

On September 04 2012 09:55 Forumite wrote:

Show nested quote +

Lying to town as a blue is a bad idea. If you fakeclaim nosy neighbor to fool scum, then you risk getting lynched by town. You are still going to draw a few trackers during the first few nights, just to make sure that you are really visiting people at random with no effect, so because of this you might actually be hurting town by distracting blues.

Why are trackers going to be inclined to 'verify' a nosy neighbor claim? Even if Mattchew is scum, he just needs to do something and his claim is still up in the air. Why is Forumite trying to manipulate our blues? There's also the point about lying as a blue. How about lying in general to the town? There isn't any value in this statement.

Town is supposedly harmed because our Trackers have to make sure Mattchew is really visiting random people with no effect. And then they get a confirmed townie out of the exchange. Wait, how does that hurt us again?

On September 04 2012 10:00 Forumite wrote:

Show nested quote +

Let me rephrase: What is your problem with Toades play in this game?

You were reacting very strongly to a random vote coming right at the beginning of the game.

Dat Over-reaction:

On September 04 2012 07:42 slOosh wrote:
Cool ... you wanna talk about something else?

On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote:
Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum?

Toad - How is that useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game? The setup changed and maybe people haven't read the updates. I've asked you once and I'll do it again, what else do you want to talk about?

And then of course slo0sh himself points out:

On September 04 2012 10:17 slOosh wrote:

Show nested quote +

I reacted strongly because there was no grounds for the vote / read. I still have a problem with the fact that he keeps emphasizing the uselessness of the post (it isn't, because as clearly seen that people can miss setup information), which I take as soft discrediting of my posts in general. I'm not claiming my opening post is super useful, but to call it useless is unwarranted. That said I can see this coming from a town perspective, so my problem with his play thus far is a matter of taste rather than alignment.

Show nested quote +

There is a difference in someone discrediting me and someone being deliberately disruptive. Forumite phrased the question in a way that seemingly put words in my mouth as I said the former but not the latter (or never intended to so I checked with my question).

Specifically the last paragraph is what I want noted.
Then again, slo0sh addressed the 'strong reaction' in the first part of that quote, but I don't think slo0sh reacted 'strongly' at all. Forumite is just stirring the pot here and not really being helpful to me. He looks like he's pushing discussion, but slo0sh was taking care of that all on his own. We didn't need Forumite to prompt him.

I see a lot of roundabout advice from Forumite on why claiming self-aware miller is terrible and how our blues are screwed for it. But nowhere does he tell us that Mattchew is scummy, just that he'll still be suspicious no matter what. His prodding at slo0sh dead-ended pretty quickly and he's ducked out of the thread after making this post:

On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers.

I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far?

I don't think his posts have contributed anything to getting scum lynched, and I think it is because Forumite is scum.

##Vote: Forumite

+ Show Spoiler +

Pregame answer for Rewok, I got curious when going through Forumite's filter:

On September 03 2012 01:49 Forumite wrote:

Show nested quote +

No there isn't! + Show Spoiler +

Eristic

BroodKingEXE

United States829 Posts

September 04 2012 04:42 GMT

#403

Toad:

On September 04 2012 07:54 Toadesstern wrote:

Show nested quote +

you say that and yet we're talking about why I think sloOsh deservers a vote and wether or not you agree with me.
Funny, isn't it?

He comes out of the box suspecting sloosh for posting a discussion starter. This is terrible reasoning, because firstly this is how 50% of all games start and second scum can use this as a cover, but he doesn't provide any reasoning from thinking he is for sure scum.

On September 04 2012 08:01 slOosh wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well BlackMamba's recent post just shows that people can miss information. My post has already proven itself useful, and your opening post which tries to discredit mine has not. Do you think I'm scum by my first post?

On September 04 2012 08:03 Toadesstern wrote:
because of that one post? Of course not.

Wait a minute, you voted for him and from the way you posted to Grush you thought he was scum. You did think he was scum from that first vote.

On September 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think your post resembles someone trying to pretend to add something to the discussion while really only pointing out stuff that everyone else should know about. Like doing votecounts inbetween to "help" people. Yes it can actually help people but you can just help people by doing normal stuff.

Obviously I'm not thinking you're mafia yet. I'm just pointing out that your post was bad without acknowledging that 50% of the posts done within the first 12hours or so are incredible bad to provoke reactions and that's what happened.

Here we are, getting some decent information about how people think about each other and why they post something rather than talking about how the vig-change might influence the game, which is an incredible easy topic to cover for mafia.

This post is very passive to me, if he really was trying to obtain a response from sloosh, by now he should've had more than enough information to say town or mafia (or even come out and say null). What he has drawn from this is that he is "not thinking you're mafia yet", a stance that is pretty misleading. The last part makes something out of nothing tons of games start with some sort of non-alignment indicative conversation, does it really matter that sloosh's way was a slower way to reaching the same result?

On September 04 2012 09:36 Toadesstern wrote:

Show nested quote +

well sloOshs post has done nothing so far. My post was the reason we're having this discussion instead of talk about vigs or the 2KP change, which is, as already pointed out, an incredible easy topic for mafia to cover and blend in while people who are talking about reads, even if they're minor, have to stand their ground at least somewhat.

Yes I totally see how that got to be malicious

Show nested quote +

There never was a vote on him to begin with lol

The bolded part seems really out of place for a townie. It seems like a scum trying to buy cred for his actions. HIs reply to me avoids the question completely and lies about his intent before. Toad is scum. ##Vote: Toadstern

DoYouHas

United States1140 Posts

September 04 2012 05:22 GMT

#404

@Hopeless - Forumite is right, if Mattchew was tracked to a night kill we would lynch him in spite of the claim. The coincidence is too high. Also, assuming we have trackers (which would be the only reliable way to verify the claim) you are spending 1-2 night actions from a valuable info-role confirming a townie (which would then have to somehow be conveyed to the rest of the town) instead of scumhunting.

A self-aware miller role claiming this early serves one function, to get the WIFOM circus rolling and possibly tie up night actions.

I don't see a blue or green role claiming nosy neighbor. It increases the chances the town will lynch you if you are blue. And as a green (whether VT or NN) you wouldn't want to tie up the town's discussion with WIFOM on the unlikely chance that later in the game you will be mis-attributed with a NK (not to mention you could claim NN then).

I'm pretty comfortable getting behind the Mattchew bandwagon.

##Unvote
##Vote: Mattchew

BlackMamba24

United States277 Posts

September 04 2012 05:33 GMT

#405

I see nosy neighbor claiming nosy neighbor, there's no reason to vote for anyone until it can be confirmed that he is lying. Unfortunately, BC's word doesn't cut it.

Rewok

40 Posts

September 04 2012 05:52 GMT

#406

Holy shiet this thread gets going quickly!

Alright, time to say hi :-) My name's Rewok. I haven't played with any of you before, so I'm gonna take this first post to tell you about my strategy for this game. I'll also give my reads, etc. But that's gonna be further down.

Basically, I see the game like this. The goal for mafia is to stay alive. The goal for Town is to get rid of people. Knowing this, Town tends to be more bloodthirsty from the front. While Mafia's best strategy is to target specific people.

Town strategy tends to lean towards "getting blood" right away. Because each person gone could kill a mafia. Worst case scenario, you know one person isn't a mafia. And you can get a better read from the filters.

Mafia tends to want specific people dead, right away. They have better information. So they tend to skew towards "let's kill THIS PERSON. Otherwise, let's pass on the ban this round."

(A little about me: I like to be careful about my scumreads. I'll only give a scumread if I've got a VERY strong hunch. My goal isn't to lynch townies. It's to make sure we use each lynch to nail a mafia and get this game over with quickly. Also - with every townie left alive.)

Now that I've revealed this, the meta is gonna change. However, using the current filters from before I posted this, here's what I got:

- - - - - -
READS
<< ps. holy filters, batman!! >>
- - - - - -

GRUSH - Pretty noncommital, right now. Thing is, there's not much to comment on, yet. There's a LOT of posting... but mostly just initial posturing. I can't give him anything other than a null read right now. I'll watch him, but it doesn't look like grush is going to be involved in my vote either way in D1.

DOYOUHAS - His first few posts feel pretty town to me. (We don't have enough info for his meta, or to see if he changes face based on the first lynching.) Thing is, he's let another player under his skin already, haha. So by the end of N1, we're gonna know whether he's town or mafia. null read for now. But I don't see this guy surviving to N2 - simply because of lynchings or night killings.

HAPAHAULI - Hap's got a cool filter. He starts out with a good town feel. I like that he's out to get lynchers. You get some pretty safe blood there. You get blood on D1 (which is what Townies want to do) and you're mitigating risk on your Townie bros. Good minmaxing. But then he's got a couple anti-blood posts, later on. On their own, I would never view anti-blood posts as anti-town. It's the inconsistencies which has me wondering right now. So far, Hap is the first guy I'm watching for my D1 vote. No FOS. No vote. Just a more than casual interest. null read on Hap.

FORUMITE - We already get along well

He hasn't gotten started yet, though. He's just gathering info and getting reads. Not gonna be on my radar for D1 unless things get hot and heated during voting. null read on Forumite.

sloOsh - Super aggressive. A dissenter. I can't see this being good Town behavior, except to disguise the fact he's Town. Lynching him D1 would give us a more peaceful game, for sure. I can't really see a downside to it, right now, unless he's a blue and holding back about it. Especially if he's already throwing around votes without a FOS, null read on Sloosh, but I'd be OK with a D1 vote on him. (It looks like TL MAFIA meta says "Don't vote the noisy townie"... I don't always agree with that. I'm simply going with my own reads and strategy.)

GRAVAN - Lurker. Nothing to see here. Also a good D1 lynch. null vote on Gravan.

Z-BOSON - I like going for quick blood. I like that he's targeting Sloosh, for reasons I gave on his filter. Even with the unvote, I like the psychology behind the initial vote. I'm cool with Boson right now. I'm probably not going to pay much attention to him D1 unless something big happens and I get a good read. null read on Boson.

LVDR - No post since his intiial flurry. He's working, sleeping or scum. Not much else to say. null vote on LVDR until 4 or 5 hrs before D1 vote. If he doesn't have a vote, he's Mafia.

BLACK MAMBA - Really smart move, bringing over previous meta. Makes it impossible for you to get a base read on him. But this dude it out for blood, haha. He's gonna be really defensive. If you vote for him, or mention him, you're getting FOSd or voted. In fact, I'd be amazed if he doesn't vote for me based on this post. The thing is, based on my current strategy, he feels pretty Townie to me. null read on Black Mamba.

BROODKINGEXE - Feels like a smart player to me. I like the rationale behind his vote, as well. This just means I'm not gonna have anything to say about him until I've got a lot more material to go on. null vote BK.

TOADE - Intent on getting people to play his game, through force. He's either a pain in the ass Townie or Mafia. But you can't tell until he gets a few more posts under his belt. Gonna ignore his filter until voting - because it looks like he's a lynch candidate already. null read Toade.

BLOODY - I like the rationale behind fakeclaiming. Whether he's Mafia or not is gonna depend on how he acts when his vote turns south. (Cuz it's looking like that's what's gonna happen.) null vote Bloody.

MATTCHEW - He's got his troll face on haha. If he's Town, a lynch will get us a cooler Town. If he's Mafia, he's not doing too good with that, either. Good candidate for a D1 vote unless some real info surfaces. null vote Mattchew.

AUSTIN - Got that lurker. Vote him out - no loss. null vote Austin.

OTTOXOL - Lurker. Nuke him. null read Otto.

... so many gdang filters...

BILL MURRAY - I agree man. If this wasn't my first game on TL, I'd be doing the exact same thing. You guys get the skulls cracking very, very quickly... null vote Bill Murray.

DARTHPUNK - Defending a policy vote is def stupid. But you're letting them suck you into the cyclone, too. You're either a pretty decent Mafia or you're getting hosed as a Town. null vote Darth.

MAVERICK - Need more posts. The first one is pretty noncomital, which doesn't mean much. It all depends on how he plays his "let's look at Toade" position. Cuz that was the hot train for the minute. If it turns out he hitches his wagon to the hot train every time, I'll feel he's Town - but kinda worthless. null vote Maverick.

GOODKARMA - Nothin much. I'm starting to fade after this many filters. :/ But I've read his filter through the other filters. He's a good dude to watch, but not enough info to lynch yet. null vote

SHAOIPI - Nada. He's going to get wrapped in the drama super quick. Not a bad mafia tell, but it doesn't make him non-town. null vote Shao.

IMALLISON - We miss this dude? null vote

SHADY SANDS - Nothing to see here. null vote

STRONG AND BIG - Happy Birthday man! :-) null read

MILTONKRAM - I like transparency, but I'm not gonna watch your meta. Transparency is a good Town or good Mafia play. I believe it's just a good play to make in general. (Hence my post.) Which means there's nothing to read on you until your next post. null read.

HOPELESS - Super early vote on very little. Just out for blood. This feels Town for me. null read.

- - - - - -
- - - - - -

The thing is, now that I've made this post, I'm changing my strategy because this post changes the meta. Welcome to posts that lead strategy instead of the other way around ;-)

Also, since we're new to gaming together, I'm going to let you know: I don't have a massive amount of spread out free time during the day, I work as a freelance writer and business owner. So my free time is only in chunks.

I WILL stay caught up on this post and the filters. I WILL make sure to post my reads, votes, etc on time.

But I will also do less posting, bigger posts. Like this one. (Although from here on out, I'll only update filters which I change from null or if I change my feeling on them.)

Hopefully we can lynch some mafia out, round one ;-)

PS. I don't want to get caught up in the BS so I'm gonna stick most arguments out. However, if you've got any questions or direct talk about my posts, I'll def answer it.

TL;DR:
I only posted twice this thread. Suck it up and read it.

ShiaoPi

TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts

September 04 2012 06:17 GMT

#407

No disrespect meant to you rewok, but what the fuck is a list full of null-reads supposed to do? It is on the first hand piling up the the thread like crazy and secondly it gives us 0 information...you are simply rehashing what happened in the thread so far.
That entire post can be summarized into: "I have no clue about you guys, mind helping to lynch scum?"

Seriously.....dafuq

BlackMamba24

United States277 Posts

September 04 2012 06:47 GMT

#408

congrats rewok you just madet he most useless post ive ever seen

no one needs to know your "reads". no one cares or should care.

BlackMamba24

United States277 Posts

September 04 2012 06:50 GMT

#409

I'm not sure the mafia would be stupid enough to let you post something that bad and scummy so I'm going to assume you're brand new. Basically, lists of reads are useless because it reveals nothing about you because you're not weighing in on anything pertinent to current town arguments/bandwagons and it doesn't pressure anybody. You actually posted so much Ic an bet almost everyone isn't going to read your whole post so you can say basically whatever you want and pretend you're contributing. You also make a lot of predictions/plans about your own play that are completely irrelevant, no one needs to know any of that shit except you, it makes you look like a scared scum trying to look useful.

But usually players that come out of newbie games seem to always do this same thing so idrk i'm just waiting until this mattchew/bc gets some objectivity on my end. anyway don't post anymore unless you have an actual argument or some pressure to apply. can you explain how a giant list of empty reads and summaries is helpful to anyone

BlackMamba24

United States277 Posts

September 04 2012 06:52 GMT

#410

also you simultaneously call me probably town but then say that's a null read?

some vigilante hit this dude tonight

BroodKingEXE

United States829 Posts

September 04 2012 06:56 GMT

#411

@Rewok: I know you're trying to be helpful, but I count 10 null votes (I assume are scummy). You need to take a stance on a couple, and FYI town lists are bad for town.

BroodKingEXE

United States829 Posts

September 04 2012 07:20 GMT

#412

About Mattchew (who I think is town):
Here's my breakdown of the situation : Matt's roleclaimed and given two reasons he claimed to avoid mislynch and/or draw a mafia shot. At first glance the roleclaim seemed like a great idea, but as I thought about it there were just too many holes. My initial thought was that it was a good idea and that could have been Matt's (based on the reasoning too). Another problem I find with lynching him is that what he has done (roleclaim) isn't verifiable until he is lynched. Right now its a coinflip and I haven't seen anything else that suggests he is scum. Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy.

Z-BosoN

Brazil2590 Posts

September 04 2012 07:21 GMT

#413

All right, regarding the BC/Mattchew situation:

First of all, this post is wrong:

You are right, his fakeclaim doesn't prove he is mafia on its own. However, HIM ASKING FOR CLAIMS DOES. Why would a townie fakeclaim and attempt to get all blues to claim ? No townie day 1 should ever be this fuckign stupid. Even if he gets caught as mafia (as I have caught him) had anyone or if anyone proceeds to claim and a bunch of retard blues out themselves mafia is instantly ahead.

IIRC, he asked for people with the same role - noisy neighbor - to claim, not blues.

BC is making this main assumption:

No miller/neighbor is self aware in any game ever except odd pyp/ptp like setups as it defeats the purpose of the role. This game holds true to the same rule as normal games for the mechanic.

To put it simply, this is the main argument going on: how can he know he is a noisy neighbor if they are unaware?. Am I correct?

You have made it clear that you are 100% sure that this game does not include self-aware millers.
As a normal person, one could not make this assumption, as it would be statistical. Say 90% of games don't include self-aware millers. I have read the OP, and nowhere does it say that millers aren't self-aware, so you must have other reasons to know this, because no matter what, you say it is not an assumption.

The fact that you keep insisting would be ridiculous if you weren't indeed 100% certain, because, like sloosh said, you would most likely be lynched if he showed up town, making it a double town loss.

Did I get anything wrong here?

If not, ##Vote Mattchew

Bill Murray

United States9292 Posts

September 04 2012 07:28 GMT

#414

yo, ill be putting in work this game
hold on though
my little cousin isn't doin' up to par. i gotta help her out. i got some advice to give.

Bill Murray

United States9292 Posts

September 04 2012 07:35 GMT

#415

##Vote: DoYouHas
blatant omgus
been scummily skimming

Bill Murray

United States9292 Posts

September 04 2012 07:38 GMT

#416

the quote's from the voting thread. Apologies to the mod

i'd like to add to the newer players that there is a seperate thread for voting
and you should go ahead and vote if you're town

oh, the scum unvoted, and voted someone else, bandwagonning?

cute

Bill Murray

United States9292 Posts

September 04 2012 07:39 GMT

#417

what i mean to say with "you should go ahead and vote if you're town" is "i don't want you to be modkilled if you're on my side, because i am very competitive, and i want to win".
period.
not my period's period?
good.

Bill Murray

United States9292 Posts

September 04 2012 07:40 GMT

#418

On September 04 2012 08:06 Shady Sands wrote:
Since no one's brought it up yet, I think we should lynch lurkers and posters that don't contribute D1. Again, this is not because lurking is a scumtell, but if we let people get away with it then scum have a place to hide.

Drawing from my experience in XXIV, I'm going to say that it's a little early for cases. I'll be watching the thread though.

why lurkers? we modkill lurkers
don't lynch lurkers, lynch people who slip up

Bill Murray

United States9292 Posts

September 04 2012 07:50 GMT

#419

FoS Rewok ->
He says "mafia like to lynch good players"
then he's weaseling a vote onto mattchew being justified
i haven't read mattchew's filter. let me get onto that. i might be changing my vote.

Bill Murray

United States9292 Posts

September 04 2012 07:51 GMT

#420

On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote:
I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.

The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.

That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.

ok
you're getting my vote
you wouldn't know you were a nosy neighbor
nice slip.

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