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On February 26 2011 15:12 LSB wrote:
I knew I could take spain without much opposition from the town considering how Ace was acting. He was just yelling "mass reveal" with no reasoning, so I fabricated a little battle and moved in.
An inactive town, and Nemesis attacking Coag did give me confidence I could pull it off without getting fingered by anyone but Ace, who I could ignore.
:/
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On February 26 2011 15:11 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 15:06 Ace wrote:On February 26 2011 14:49 Qatol wrote:On February 26 2011 14:02 Ace wrote:On February 26 2011 13:39 infinitestory wrote:On February 26 2011 13:26 LSB wrote:
Shame it ended, we were schooling you guys, and would have won
Citi.zen was the coranor. I had a feeling you were red from the start, but I thought you were bussing ace -_- which had me really confused when citi.zen died and ace was confirmed Vig. My suspect list at the end of 1903 was something like Nemesis / you / fishball, but voting off Nemesis would have gotten us owned. ^_^ LSB I had a feeling was Scum but then I was like god damn everyone is inactive - I'd rather play as if LSB is semi-confirmed town and go from there. BC was obvious scum because of some post that pretty much answered nothing. Couldn't decide on Fishball at all :/ LSB was one of the most blatant scum we've had in a long time. Ace roleclaims vigi, which is just about the most easily confirmed role ever, without being under serious pressure, and what does LSB do in response? Take Spain. Then he tries to lead a bandwagon to lynch Ace. When that fails, he makes a fleet so he can take out Portugal before the first time Ace can use his vigi hit. I couldn't understand how anybody could think a townie would do that. Which is why I kept railing with have you ever played a game with no reveal!!!!?Mass Claim was still the best bet to win imo. citizen was right when he said trying to "play diplomacy" and take out 3 scum was a very...ambitious plan ^_^ When LSB took Spain I was somewhat glad. If he offed me under the circumstances I was in (RC Vigi with a chance to shoot) I was hoping the town would just crack him and BC instantly. Indeed it was. A mass claim would have revealed that there were a LOT of blues. The mafia might have mitigated things a little by claiming apprentice (I don't remember if there was another unused blue role), but even then you just lynch people who claimed the latest to grab the mafia who waited until it didn't look like anyone else would claim that role before claiming it.
The many blues helped the mafia in a weird way. Everyone was just trying to stay alive and use their power (plus play diplomacy), instead of doing regular analysis. It's also why many instinctively disliked Ace's plan, I would guess.
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people dont do my plans because they assume I'm always trying to trick them and dont read.
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I thought I sent all my actions in...
Well looking back I don't see a few posts I thought I had posted. I guess PMs didn't either? Ttat sucks.
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On February 26 2011 23:20 Ace wrote:
people dont do my plans because they assume I'm always trying to trick them and dont read.
Tbh I liked your plan! Because it gave us Bum as the medic, guaranteeing our next night hit, and it threw suspicion on Nemesis and Infinitestory.
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The Mafia didn't NEED that info though. It could pretty easily win @ diplomacy given their huge info advantage and option to kill other any player at night. If BC survived the lynch you already had it.
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On February 27 2011 03:48 citi.zen wrote:
The Mafia didn't NEED that info though. It could pretty easily win @ diplomacy given their huge info advantage and option to kill other any player at night. If BC survived the lynch you already had it.
word.
On February 27 2011 02:37 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 23:20 Ace wrote:
people dont do my plans because they assume I'm always trying to trick them and dont read.
Tbh I liked your plan! Because it gave us Bum as the medic, guaranteeing our next night hit, and it threw suspicion on Nemesis and Infinitestory.
Yea, but it also gives the town a chance to win. Doesn't change things too much for you as you already know who isn't Mafia, but for us it's crucial.
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Dunno about how big the advantage is.
The reason why I had that much voting power was because you made the mistake of assuming that I would have attacked you day 1.
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On February 27 2011 03:48 citi.zen wrote:
The Mafia didn't NEED that info though. It could pretty easily win @ diplomacy given their huge info advantage and option to kill other any player at night. If BC survived the lynch you already had it.
So do you think there were too many mafia in this game? Incognito and I tried to balance out having 3 mafia by including a lot of blues, but if there was really no margin for error on any lynch, I'm a bit worried about that if we try to do this again.
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Think about this in terms of total votes. Each time a townie takes a center from someone else the town vote total might go up or stay the same: if it's taken from another townie votes are merely transfered, not gained. For the mafia this is not a problem - all provinces won in diplo are net gains. Add to this the ability of a mafia player to ally a townie in diplo without a shred of evidence about their alignment and things get even worse: a townie might well help a red player take votes away from town! As an example:
On February 25 2011 06:17 Coagulation wrote:
im green town like i have said all game. me and LSB have a kind of mutual unspoken agreement/understanding where we generally work together as town and leave each other alone (for the most part) when we are of separate alignments. (metagame ftw)
##Vote: Nemesis
Edit: that was to LSB.
@ Qatol: yes, two mafia would have a more interesting task and migh need to choose between "domination" or "survival" victory. A town "12 province" win might also be happen.
Edit 2: before I forget, Ace's "diplomacy" mistake is important too. Mafia can discuss moves and obvious mistakes will be caught before they happen, but the chances that some townie makes a mistake is pretty high.
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On February 27 2011 04:38 LSB wrote:
Dunno about how big the advantage is.
The reason why I had that much voting power was because you made the mistake of assuming that I would have attacked you day 1.
no I didn't assume you would have attacked me Day 1. Show me where I acted out on that assumption.
On February 27 2011 04:46 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 03:48 citi.zen wrote:
The Mafia didn't NEED that info though. It could pretty easily win @ diplomacy given their huge info advantage and option to kill other any player at night. If BC survived the lynch you already had it. So do you think there were too many mafia in this game? Incognito and I tried to balance out having 3 mafia by including a lot of blues, but if there was really no margin for error on any lynch, I'm a bit worried about that if we try to do this again.
Hard to say because too many mafia wasn't the issue here - lazy players were.
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I think it seemed a fair set-up. I think we had an equal chance, because BC was a high priority lynch target, and LSB would have had to kill off Ace to avoid an incoming vig hit to his face. That would have made an easy second lynch. In that time I think town would have a nice edge even without the coroner.
Im still a little confused on everyones role though, did we have an apprentice and a lawyer?
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On February 27 2011 06:08 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 04:38 LSB wrote:
Dunno about how big the advantage is.
The reason why I had that much voting power was because you made the mistake of assuming that I would have attacked you day 1. no I didn't assume you would have attacked me Day 1. Show me where I acted out on that assumption.
So then why did you move into Spain Fall 1901?
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Because it's one of my SCs and it's the only one with a border to the rest of the map. Why wouldn't I move there?
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Mafia
LSB
Fishball
BC
DT
ShoCkeyy
Medic
Bumatlarge
Vigilante
Ace
Lawyer
Beneather
Coroner
citi.zen
Townies
Nemesis
Coagulation
Infinitestory
Although I'm disappointed that this setup didn't work out, a few performances were good. Props to citi.zen and Ace for putting in an effort, even though the game was eventually doomed. citi.zen's reads were spot on, and Ace's mass roleclaim strategy was an excellent way to get information out there. Really there is no reason to wait for people to start dying off in order to roleclaim.
A couple notes: Ace was obviously town the instant he roleclaimed vig. If you look at the context, the game is pretty much dead when Ace makes this claim. He doesn't claim off some pre-arranged plan, and he certainly doesn't claim in order to derail town discussion (there was no town discussion). Ace's claim was basically to try to get the game going. Why would mafia want the game to get going? If everyone's inactive, theres no reason to put yourself out like that. Ace was under no pressure whatsoever, so the only possible motive for him is that he is town trying to get town off in a good direction. Nevermind if you thought the plan was bad or not (it wasn't), but still, when a player pops their head up like that when there is no activity whatsoever, you should get an instant town read right there.
LSB was obviously mafia from the first year or so. Both his posts and movements on the board point to scum. In fact, his thread behavior almost exactly fits his TMMM 2 profile. His Spring 1901 attitude is somewhat aggressive, but not very indicative. However, once Fall 1901 comes around and Ace announces his roleclaim plan, LSB immediately opposes it...and fails to provide a superior alternative (his alternative is basically - play this game like normal! which, if you look at the inactivity in the game, clearly isn't going to get town anywhere). This is classic red LSB, criticizing plans without giving alternatives, and generally doing nothing positively productive for the town. Furthermore, the movements should make it even more clear that LSB is mafia. Because of Ace's 1901 mistake, 1902 LSB makes massively aggressive moves against A CLAIMED VIG with no counterclaim. Given the circumstances I outlined in the previous paragraph about how Ace is clearly town, this should be raising flags for everyone. As Qatol said, taking spain then trying to get Ace lynched is an extremely blatant anti-town play.
Off to balance issues, I don't think there was a huge balance problem here. Yes, mafia controlled 1/3 of the vote near the end of the lynch. But I think this was a product of A) lack of town organization, B) lack of accountability in everyones board moves, and C) general inactivity. Simply put, town did not have a plan. Everyone made moves without thinking about who was being aggressive, and why. Without accountability, mafia was able to gain many votes without being challenged AT ALL, which is a huge mistake. Once you let mafia get comfortable with lots of votes, town power decreases dramatically. The fighting between townies didn't help either, not to mention the multiple townies who didn't turn in valid orders/turned in suboptimal orders). Mafia played well and didn't make any significant order mistakes (except for maybe Fishball trying to take Moscow without potential support in 1902). Even the multiple blues this game weren't used properly. ShoCkeyy's role check on Ace was suboptimal, and should have been used to check one of the inactives, or one of BC/LSB. Only 3 people sent in Lawyer diaries, although only one did so before 1902. Lawyer never bothered to share the results (which would have let town know that the coroner was dead). Nobody talked about any of the mechanics such as Lawyer/GF/Thief and how they could be used, which could have benefited town immensely. So while I might change this setup if it is ever used again (doubtful), I don't think we can make any certian conclusions on balance, as town played a really suboptimal game (both on the board and in the thread). The only people who turned in optimal movement orders were mafia.
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Sorry incog  hope to be more active the next time you run one. Thanks though 
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On February 27 2011 06:25 Ace wrote:
Because it's one of my SCs and it's the only one with a border to the rest of the map. Why wouldn't I move there?
Because that gave up your control of portugal and would leave you with only 1 supply center come 1902, which guaranteed your death.
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As I like to say, there is a reason why I have never won a game as mafia!
This game would have been the first, but thankfully it got ended before I could claim victory.
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On February 27 2011 04:46 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 03:48 citi.zen wrote:
The Mafia didn't NEED that info though. It could pretty easily win @ diplomacy given their huge info advantage and option to kill other any player at night. If BC survived the lynch you already had it. So do you think there were too many mafia in this game? Incognito and I tried to balance out having 3 mafia by including a lot of blues, but if there was really no margin for error on any lynch, I'm a bit worried about that if we try to do this again.
Balancing with 3 Mafia is fine. It's just that Town never got their shit together, and we just tried to exploit that to the max. If Town had missed their first lynch in this game, they would never be able to have majority of votes for second lynch and so on, which means they cannot win at that point anymore.
My first pick was Theif, which I got. Granted my insights and Incognito's are different, but I've talked to him on MSN a week or two ago that I foresee inactivity playing a huge part, especially in games like this. Based on that and along with additional information, going Mafia gives me a huge advantage. Also, I didn't have to deal with Town. It was a no-brainer for me.
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On February 27 2011 06:32 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 06:25 Ace wrote:
Because it's one of my SCs and it's the only one with a border to the rest of the map. Why wouldn't I move there? Because that gave up your control of portugal and would leave you with only 1 supply center come 1902, which guaranteed your death.
and yours ^_^
@Fishball: I told Incognito if I don't get Vigilante I want to be Scum.
Original Message From Incognito: Ah ok. So survival purposes sounds good. Show nested quote +Original Message From Ace: Well having 3 of us spread out in the corners allows us to evade being linked by army movements. Also having a Spain + Russia/Turkey, or Spain + England team is good for applying pressure to the middle of the map. Original Message From Incognito: Ah ok sounds fair, although it might be difficult for mafia to cooperate if they are all spread out on the corners. Original Message From Ace: well if I was Scum I was hoping that getting Spain, my allies got any of the other corner countries. Something like Spain-England-Turkey, or Russia if we got lucky. That way our entire plan would hinge around just staying alive long enough to break the town and not push any lynches unless it was a guaranteed Town screw up. If we control the corner countries it would have been A.) difficult to stop a 2 on 1 attack and B.) difficult to be invaded. The worst case would have been getting any of the middle countries or neighboring countries. If 2 Mafia players (who are supposed to be town and have no communication) start building away from each other going after their other neighbors that should raise eyebrows if anyone is paying attention. But oh well time to Scum hunt ^_^ Original Message From Incognito: You did request vigilante, right? And just for curiosity, what is this plan? Original Message From Ace: ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo fucking hell v_v Guess I have to play for real and put my Scum plan on hold. Original Message From Incognito: Welcome to Mini Mafia VI: Diplomacy! Your role is: VigilanteYour nation is: Spain PM Incognito if you have any questions about your role.
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EPT
