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Agh
United States1108 Posts
Ling roach works as well but isn't anywhere near cost effective as hydras vs gateway units, also hydras or enough roaches with good spine positioning is almost unbreakable. The games just came down to bad scouting/prep from idra and mainly trying to play a little too greedy. The decision to attack with his roaches on kulas cost him the game and facepalm worthy in hindsight. | ||
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Hakker
United States1360 Posts
On November 09 2010 10:13 Hurkyl wrote: What does one transition to after opening with this and fighting back and forth for a long time? Obviously there is expanding and upgrading, but is there any tech that is reasonable to transition into? HT's are very close by | ||
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TypeFake
United States121 Posts
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ZaneZaneZane
United States68 Posts
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Heosat
Australia481 Posts
On November 09 2010 11:02 TypeFake wrote: Didn't Liquid'Tyler do this vs IdrA? Yes. On November 09 2010 11:04 ZaneZaneZane wrote: Wasn't Nazgul one of the players who first started using the four gate and making it popular? Yes. Among many other builds in beta. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
It just seems weird transitioning to HTs from a build that eats all of your gas. Doesn't cutting stalkers for zealot production dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the build? I suppose all will become clear if I ever get a chance to try it. | ||
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Zibitee
United States39 Posts
The 4gate blink stalker build: Advantages: omfg blink stalker micro win!!! Techs to dark templars and high templars, both of which are extremely viable follow-ups Disadvantages: Extremely gas heavy All-in How I countered this build: - First of all, I don't 14-16hatch vs protoss. Therefore, I already have a slight tech advantage. - If playing standard, the 11 food drone stealing gas pushes the 4gate blink stalker build back or reduces initial stalker numbers, which become extremely helpful during the first engagement. I feel like the protoss player would try to aggressively take down the extractor (I cancel and rebuild the extractor as many times as I possibly can) and this aggression could signify a blink stalker all-in. - The 5RR build was designed to shut down 4gate pushes and the the delayed nature of the 4gate blink stalker build is no exception. The 5RR build can usually take out the protoss player right before he starts warping in a nice army and the ONE exception I've seen is if the protoss player blocks off his entrance with a cybernetic core and gateway in CROSS POSITIONS. Therefore, the roaches will not be able to get through without killing one of the two buildings first. - Dimaga's +1 zerglings do extremely well in this. Fifty +1 attack zerglings shut down the blink stalker push like no other. A DT follow-up could be troublesome, but getting an overseer as soon as the DTs start attacking the drones is good enough. Conclusions: This blink stalker all-in play will probably force zerg players to use more "one trick pony" tactics such as +1 attack zergilngs or 5RR. Macro zerg becomes much less viable unless the map allows for other types of defenses (such as spine crawlers). As this tactic becomes more popular, I'm sure zerg players will learn how to adapt to it....granted, some incoming QQ! | ||
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Chaoz
United States507 Posts
I tried this in PvP also, but so far only got it to work on cross maps. This really shines in 2v2 games. I won 5 straight with my Zerg partner. | ||
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mOnion
United States5660 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Moragon
United States355 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
Check games Gerrard games If done on the right maps (Lost Temple, XelNaga, Kulas Ravine, and Metalopolis) it works well against all styles as long as you use the terrain properly. Straight up hydras are not a hard counter to it, if only it was that simple. If the blink build is executed well outright hydras come too late in too few numbers. The reason why hydras beat it so easily in the game on Scrap Station has got nothing to do with hydras specifically but everything to do with the map and how much freedom to power and surround it gives Zerg against this build. Replay that exact same game on any map suited for Blink stalker and the hydras come too late with too few numbers. For this reason blink stalker is pretty terrible on Scrap Station and before the series I had no intention to play blink on Scrap against anyone. During the series however I changed my mind because I felt Idra was dealing with blink pretty badly, and added to that thought I felt it was useful to get some last minute blink practice in in order to win the deciding game on Kulas Ravine. All this "he should have gone hydras every game" talk is incredibly shortsighted. I have seen a lot of people complaining about the abusiveness of it on Kulas. If done well there is simply no way a Protoss should lose to Zerg on Kulas. Idra made a big strategic mistake downvoting Steppes of War, which may be tough ZvP but is nothing compared to how tough Kulas is. With the map vetoing system I would be crazy not to take advantage of such a strategic error by my opponent. Usually when talking about an 'allin' build we talk about a build that if known to be coming can easily be stopped. This build on the maps where you're supposed to use it doesn't work like that. Your opponent no matter how good they are can know it's coming all they want but it will still come down to micro on who is going to win. I have practiced it over and over against every Liquid Zerg and also a lot on the ladder and nobody has come up with something that will beat it by default, making every game a tense battle all about micro and positioning. The reason why this build hasn't been popularized at all is because I have pretty much gone inactive since the Beta and haven't joined any tournaments until last week when I started my MLG Dallas practice. Tyler's use of it against Idra is as far as I know the first public appearance of it since I used it in the Beta. An interesting note is that the reason why Blizzard patched fungal vs blink is because they know how strong blink stalkers can be. Seeing that patch should have gotten Zergs and Protoss' to think about this build already. | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
I was fortunate enough to watch the series live at MLG and was curious about it. IdrA has had problems with this build going back to beta (youtube drunkbobby vs IdrA). + Show Spoiler + The series with Nazgul vs IdrA though was by far the most blatant abuse of a map/s I think I've ever seen in a tourney. + Show Spoiler + Idra made a big strategic mistake downvoting Steppes of War, which may be tough ZvP but is nothing compared to how tough Kulas is. With the map vetoing system I would be crazy not to take advantage of such a strategic error by my opponent. Guess that sums it up though | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
Usually when talking about an 'allin' build we talk about a build that if known to be coming can easily be stopped. no thats not an all inn, an all inn is a build with no next step such as the marauder hellion + scv allinn. Blink stalker is not an allinn unless you cut ALOT of probes and dont ever plan on transitioning out of it so its hard for zergs to get a sense of the timings. ;/ Naturally there is no "hard counter" to an agressive gateway build other than just having more stuff and beating it before it grows larger than you can handle. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Nevertheless I strongly believe that, especially with fast hydras, it will indeed come down to micro/positioning and could lead to a somewhat even midgame-stance....but then I'd be curious to know how to take it from there (given that you could, in fact, deal enough damage to not get stomped by the following hydra-push any zerg will probably attempt to avoid a colossus-fasttech). Would you cannon up and slow tech to colossi? Would you try high templar? Would you try to stall with DTs? The main reason I've been reluctant to use this build is, that I've never managed to transition smoothely after a midgame-advantage (if I didn't do SO much damage that it didn't really matter what I did afterwards). | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
On November 09 2010 12:21 Hurkyl wrote: It just seems weird transitioning to HTs from a build that eats all of your gas. Doesn't cutting stalkers for zealot production dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the build? I suppose all will become clear if I ever get a chance to try it. Well thats because there is no way to transition out of this without it being awful. You need to expand but that means cutting stalkers and not keeping maximum pressure on. I would keep the all in going and go DTs and try to snipe overseers with the blink stalkers. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
Definitely only transition if you are given a reason to do so, with this strategy you shouldn't be transitioning usually. You can play variations of the build to mess with your opponents mind so instead of 4 gate skipping probes you can 3 gate mass probe and then expand. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On November 09 2010 18:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: There's so much inaccurate information floating around concerning this build. It's not at all constructed to knock out Idra. It's a general PvZ build I first used 5 months ago in the Beta. Nearing the end of the Beta when I was working on developing it I played Check (3-1) and Gerrard (2-3) in the Asia vs Europe tournament series. So the build has been out for a very long time but somehow the strength of it just never caught peoples attention. Ever since these games, most Protoss have been sleeping ignoring stalkers and their blink ability for the most part. Very interesting. There's something to be learnt here about what you think you know about the game. Top Koreans might win a lot and therefore lead the current trends but there's still lots to learn from analysts of the game. The skill of this build is very much in the execution too which makes it even harder to pick up on it's true potential without a lot of planning and thought. This should also reafirm faith in the Blizzard balance team. We're quick to point out mistakes in what they do but rarely do we point out their sucesses. They pre-empted baneling play with the baneling nerf and here they were very much on the ball with this infestor FG change. As you said, executed properly it makes it literally impossible for the Zerg to expand to the cliffed natural on Kulas. IdrA would've perhaps been wiser to break the rocks and take the upper base. One thing I'd like to know Nazgul. If the Zerg goes 14pool and scouts no or 1 Zealot, is it not possible for him to make a large number of lings? In my experience if the Protoss doesn't chrono out the 2nd Zealot they can lose to a heavy ling attack (if scouting is properly denied) and of course your overlord can see the wall-in. You won't necessarily win outright but should be able to cause enough panic to stop the stalker build in it's tracks. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On November 09 2010 18:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: There's so much inaccurate information floating around concerning this build. It's not at all constructed to knock out Idra. It's a general PvZ build I first used 5 months ago in the Beta. Nearing the end of the Beta when I was working on developing it I played Check (3-1) and Gerrard (2-3) in the Asia vs Europe tournament series. So the build has been out for a very long time but somehow the strength of it just never caught peoples attention. Ever since these games, most Protoss have been sleeping ignoring stalkers and their blink ability for the most part. Check: http://livestre.am/1bJR Gerrard: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/news/12085-vods-and-current-standings-in-the-eu-vs-asia-starleague If done on the right maps (Lost Temple, XelNaga, Kulas Ravine, and Metalopolis) it works well against all styles as long as you use the terrain properly. Straight up hydras are not a hard counter to it, if only it was that simple. If the blink build is executed well outright hydras come too late in too few numbers. The reason why hydras beat it so easily in the game on Scrap Station has got nothing to do with hydras specifically but everything to do with the map and how much freedom to power and surround it gives Zerg against this build. Replay that exact same game on any map suited for Blink stalker and the hydras come too late with too few numbers. For this reason blink stalker is pretty terrible on Scrap Station and before the series I had no intention to play blink on Scrap against anyone. During the series however I changed my mind because I felt Idra was dealing with blink pretty badly, and added to that thought I felt it was useful to get some last minute blink practice in in order to win the deciding game on Kulas Ravine. All this "he should have gone hydras every game" talk is incredibly shortsighted. I have seen a lot of people complaining about the abusiveness of it on Kulas. If done well there is simply no way a Protoss should lose to Zerg on Kulas. Idra made a big strategic mistake downvoting Steppes of War, which may be tough ZvP but is nothing compared to how tough Kulas is. With the map vetoing system I would be crazy not to take advantage of such a strategic error by my opponent. Usually when talking about an 'allin' build we talk about a build that if known to be coming can easily be stopped. This build on the maps where you're supposed to use it doesn't work like that. Your opponent no matter how good they are can know it's coming all they want but it will still come down to micro on who is going to win. I have practiced it over and over against every Liquid Zerg and also a lot on the ladder and nobody has come up with something that will beat it by default, making every game a tense battle all about micro and positioning. The reason why this build hasn't been popularized at all is because I have pretty much gone inactive since the Beta and haven't joined any tournaments until last week when I started my MLG Dallas practice. Tyler's use of it against Idra is as far as I know the first public appearance of it since I used it in the Beta. An interesting note is that the reason why Blizzard patched fungal vs blink is because they know how strong blink stalkers can be. Seeing that patch should have gotten Zergs and Protoss' to think about this build already. I think Kiwikaki used similar build vs Dimaga in a showmatch, and mass blink stalkers > hydras :/ | ||
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