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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On November 05 2013 01:11 Glorfindel! wrote:
Posting again since the question ansered in OP is quite vaguely answered:
Lets say I go for a reaper expand as Terran.
My opponent Protoss goes för Expand, into Robo - Fast DP-drop.
If I know this is coming. What is the best way to defend and how do I want to prepare myself.
Obviously I want to save scans. My consideration is more what Unit comp I want to aim at and if I want to do some kind of push afterwards or if I want to take a fast third.
Best way to defend, if you know it's coming, is to get at least a turret in your main mineral line, and one in your nat. I usually put the one in my nat on the non-mineral side of the CC so it covers my bunker and the approach from the nat into the main. Also, a depot in the far corner of the base to spot the prism is nice. You want standard MMM to deal with this; it's easier with concussive shells. A third turret can be placed near production, recommended on Yeonsu because of the size of the main.
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Hey guys who are the good terran streams to watch to keep up with the meta? I mean I love demuslim and watching him but since he's been getting ddosed all the time now idk who to watch.. Iaguz stream? Avilo? Even though he only really mech's and it's not exactly the meta ? Thanks ^.^
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On November 05 2013 02:53 Pirfiktshon wrote:10 Gate MSC Z S Rush is all about crisis management and micro. The reality is that your opponent has sacrificed some eco to get early units out. Minimizing the damage done is all about how you react and don't over react. If your opponent is dumb enough to just wail on your almost finished CC you will have time to get 4-5 rines out and easily repel it with pulling 2-3 scvs and pull a 4th lagging behind that force to finish the CC and start a bunker ASAP while not getting supplied block and constantly making marines. IF they kill the scv at the CC and come directly into your base this is where your metal will get tested. Pull 3-4 scvs have them avoid the zealot yet try to surround the stalker when a scv gets focused pull him away and pull another off the line at the same time making marines focus firing the MSC with splitting as much as possible to avoid getting TW raped while you might have to stutter step a little to minimize zlot damage. NEVER STOP MAKING MARINES AND DON"T GET SUPPLIED BLOCK. When you realize you are repelling this and you are pushing them out slap a bunker down ASAP and finish your CC! Getting a good trade here can be difficult and takes practice i still have a little trouble at higher levels with this push but practice makes perfect 
http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/matches/dear-vs-maru-1/game-2
so i'm assuming Maru is at least a little behind after loosing 7 scvs? but how many do you feel is an even trade? I think he dealt with it well but not perfect, and Dear executed it really well, maybe best i've ever seen.
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It's not just about how many SCV's you lose, it's also about how much time you spend with scvs not mining and what your BO is. CC first with fast 3 rax can recover faster from a 10 gate than reaper FE does.
Maru's definitely quite behind after that trade though. The expo is finished and he can start chronoing probes. Maru tries to counter with marines since he got the MSC so no cannon, but it doesn't work out for him.
Dealing with 10 gate with reaper fe is really fucking hard. I'm not entirely certain if it's a BO loss for terran but you need solid micro to not fall behind. Maru took a lot of damage on his marines before he pulled scvs and fought properly, and was a bit indecisive with how many scvs to pull and when to go in, but no matter what happens a lot of damage is happening to terran.
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What's the best way to hold a blink play? If it's an all-in I don't have much of a problem, but I don't know what to do when protoss does an economic blink play (nexus into blink or blink into fast nexus). I usually open with Bomber's reaper expand into 2 rax, so when I sniff blink play my production is already stifled until I can get a third rax up. Once medivacs are out I'm already so behind economically there's very little I can do.
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Blink pretty good. It feels kind of like heavy econ roach openers. It can go either way depending on execution. If you can hold off till medevacs and stick to the plan, shouldn't you not fall behind. I think there was a recent wcs game on yeonsu with the exact two build you mentioned and terran just kept calm and macroed on.
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On November 05 2013 13:12 Fhiz wrote:
Hey guys who are the good terran streams to watch to keep up with the meta? I mean I love demuslim and watching him but since he's been getting ddosed all the time now idk who to watch.. Iaguz stream? Avilo? Even though he only really mech's and it's not exactly the meta ? Thanks ^.^
Depends what you like. I like Polt's stream a lot but he doesn't stream that often. Sterling has a good stream as well but his stream time has been cut down too - he does/used to? commentate a lot as well.
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On November 05 2013 13:12 Fhiz wrote:
Hey guys who are the good terran streams to watch to keep up with the meta? I mean I love demuslim and watching him but since he's been getting ddosed all the time now idk who to watch.. Iaguz stream? Avilo? Even though he only really mech's and it's not exactly the meta ? Thanks ^.^
If you want to keep up with the meta, I think its better to watch the tourney vods than the streams. sc2casts is really great for that, they are updated daily with new pro tourney vods, and ultimately its what the pros do int he tourneys that defines the meta more than the streams.
Painuser streams a lot, hes not bad, if you wanted to watch the streams.
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Hey guys... Can one still learn something from playing Brood War?
What i mean is, i never played Broodwar but i got the game from a friend just to have some fun. The question is can Broodwar teach me something to add to my play in SC2? Mechanics wise?
Thanks
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On November 05 2013 23:57 noSec wrote:
Hey guys... Can one still learn something from playing Brood War?
What i mean is, i never played Broodwar but i got the game from a friend just to have some fun. The question is can Broodwar teach me something to add to my play in SC2? Mechanics wise?
Thanks
Broodwar will teach you coordination and speed, though you'll find the transition back to multiple-building-selection and the timing patterns jarring. Broodwar will actively punish you for not jumping around with the screen frequently to make sure that your SCVs are mining, units are moving around, and the AI isn't in general giving you a big "fuck you". If you are having trouble bringing yourself up to speed with mechanics, Broodwar is certainly more grueling practice than SC2 is. If you can macro your economy correctly in Broodwar, you can probably do it in SC2.
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On November 05 2013 02:09 Doc Brawler wrote:
What is the best response to 10 gate msc pressure
I still see pros and gms take massive damage when a protoss does a proper 10 gate msc zealot stalker rush.
When dear did it to maru on derelict his stalker, zealot and msc reached the natural at 4:53. Every replay i have seen where a terran goes reaper, reactor the first two marines can not be ready until after 5:00 giving protoss a few seconds to just walk past the bunker on the low ground.
Is it safer to just build the cc on high ground and skip the bunker? or still build the bunker but hold the high ground?
Maru scouted very late (he saw the Zealot coming at 3'37, i. e. after he had committed to expanding on the spot) and could have defended better; he didn't coordinate well enough the sandwich between the few units he had at natural and his SCVs/Marines coming from the main. Trying to hold lowground is also detrimental; with an earlier SCV scout, you can recognize the gate 10 and build both your CC and your Bunker in the main, making it much easier to sustain less damage.
You have to send your Reaper on the Zealot so he retreats to the oncoming Stalker and the MSC. With a crisp execution of the build, your 2 first Marines are out at 4'47, and the next round at 5'12. Even if you stay on the high ground, Protoss will ignore your Bunker and try to walk by, but then his units will get damaged (focus the MSC if he's in range) and he will meet your ~10 SCVs + Marines 3-4.
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When playing mech, what is a good number of production facilities when on 2 bases? 3 bases? 4+ bases? It took me a long time to find out how many rax/fac/port for bio or biomech but I have no idea how many I should have at each of those stages for mech play.
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So in the order of 2/3/4 base + you get 3/5/
5or 7 factories at this point. It depends on the Mu and what your trying to do I think, as in TvT you want to get Starport production up. If I go up to 7 factories its usually only to reactor them to spam widow mines or hellbats in a remax situation, one thing I like to do is send a round of hellbats into a far away base and then attack at a different point with my army. Mech will nearly always aim for Skyterran if its super late game so instead of more factories go Starport after 5 factories.
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On November 06 2013 01:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 02:09 Doc Brawler wrote:
What is the best response to 10 gate msc pressure
I still see pros and gms take massive damage when a protoss does a proper 10 gate msc zealot stalker rush.
When dear did it to maru on derelict his stalker, zealot and msc reached the natural at 4:53. Every replay i have seen where a terran goes reaper, reactor the first two marines can not be ready until after 5:00 giving protoss a few seconds to just walk past the bunker on the low ground.
Is it safer to just build the cc on high ground and skip the bunker? or still build the bunker but hold the high ground? Maru scouted very late (he saw the Zealot coming at 3'37, i. e. after he had committed to expanding on the spot) and could have defended better; he didn't coordinate well enough the sandwich between the few units he had at natural and his SCVs/Marines coming from the main. Trying to hold lowground is also detrimental; with an earlier SCV scout, you can recognize the gate 10 and build both your CC and your Bunker in the main, making it much easier to sustain less damage. You have to send your Reaper on the Zealot so he retreats to the oncoming Stalker and the MSC. With a crisp execution of the build, your 2 first Marines are out at 4'47, and the next round at 5'12. Even if you stay on the high ground, Protoss will ignore your Bunker and try to walk by, but then his units will get damaged (focus the MSC if he's in range) and he will meet your ~10 SCVs + Marines 3-4.
Do you honestly pull 10 scvs? I just think one good TW would ruin your day at that point..... Do you have a rep of you doing this?
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Could anyone recommend me the best TvT all in they can think of? Preferably with a professional game as a reference, thanks.
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On November 06 2013 01:58 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 01:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2013 02:09 Doc Brawler wrote:
What is the best response to 10 gate msc pressure
I still see pros and gms take massive damage when a protoss does a proper 10 gate msc zealot stalker rush.
When dear did it to maru on derelict his stalker, zealot and msc reached the natural at 4:53. Every replay i have seen where a terran goes reaper, reactor the first two marines can not be ready until after 5:00 giving protoss a few seconds to just walk past the bunker on the low ground.
Is it safer to just build the cc on high ground and skip the bunker? or still build the bunker but hold the high ground? Maru scouted very late (he saw the Zealot coming at 3'37, i. e. after he had committed to expanding on the spot) and could have defended better; he didn't coordinate well enough the sandwich between the few units he had at natural and his SCVs/Marines coming from the main. Trying to hold lowground is also detrimental; with an earlier SCV scout, you can recognize the gate 10 and build both your CC and your Bunker in the main, making it much easier to sustain less damage. You have to send your Reaper on the Zealot so he retreats to the oncoming Stalker and the MSC. With a crisp execution of the build, your 2 first Marines are out at 4'47, and the next round at 5'12. Even if you stay on the high ground, Protoss will ignore your Bunker and try to walk by, but then his units will get damaged (focus the MSC if he's in range) and he will meet your ~10 SCVs + Marines 3-4. Do you honestly pull 10 scvs? I just think one good TW would ruin your day at that point..... Do you have a rep of you doing this?
Didn't have to pull that many from memory, but: http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/wcs/2013season2_challenger_qualifier4/download/26625256/
If you don't pull enough SCVs, Stalkers will have too much room to ignore your SCVs and escape surrounds while focusing your Marines.
On November 06 2013 02:04 mau5mat wrote:
Could anyone recommend me the best TvT all in they can think of? Preferably with a professional game as a reference, thanks.
There are not really viable all-ins in TvT. Out of one base, the strongest attacks are things like gas first Cloak Banshee into Marines/Tanks/Banshees (e. g. jjakji vs Maru, Frost, Code S RO8) or gas first Marines/Hellions elevators with a proxy Starport (e. g. Maru vs Bogus, Bel'shir Vestige, OSL RO4). They're not all-ins stricto sensu since you're supposed to build a delayed expand as a transition, but you do need to do some damage to have an even game afterwards.
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yea i get that I've defended it with 3-4 scvs but you are the Expert  as I climb the ladder even higher I'm probably going to fight people with better micro so it will probably be necessary lol
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On November 06 2013 01:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 02:09 Doc Brawler wrote:
What is the best response to 10 gate msc pressure
I still see pros and gms take massive damage when a protoss does a proper 10 gate msc zealot stalker rush.
When dear did it to maru on derelict his stalker, zealot and msc reached the natural at 4:53. Every replay i have seen where a terran goes reaper, reactor the first two marines can not be ready until after 5:00 giving protoss a few seconds to just walk past the bunker on the low ground.
Is it safer to just build the cc on high ground and skip the bunker? or still build the bunker but hold the high ground? Maru scouted very late (he saw the Zealot coming at 3'37, i. e. after he had committed to expanding on the spot) and could have defended better; he didn't coordinate well enough the sandwich between the few units he had at natural and his SCVs/Marines coming from the main. Trying to hold lowground is also detrimental; with an earlier SCV scout, you can recognize the gate 10 and build both your CC and your Bunker in the main, making it much easier to sustain less damage. You have to send your Reaper on the Zealot so he retreats to the oncoming Stalker and the MSC. With a crisp execution of the build, your 2 first Marines are out at 4'47, and the next round at 5'12. Even if you stay on the high ground, Protoss will ignore your Bunker and try to walk by, but then his units will get damaged (focus the MSC if he's in range) and he will meet your ~10 SCVs + Marines 3-4.
ok so i have 3 more questions, but the last might be better answered by a protoss
-If you want to scout this before the cc is ploped down on low ground, when should you leave on a two player map? It looks like it would have to be much sooner than when the rax finishes, which hurts an already very tight build resource wise.
-If its a 4 player map (like whirlwind, where dear did this again in the set) and you can not always confirm it is coming, what is the best practice if you still want to do this build? Is it just safer to blindly build cc on high ground? Or is solid micro just the best answer?
Also, from replays it looks like a protoss can do all this with only being down only 2-4 probes from a normal expansion build, but their nexus is delayed a significant amount. Why not do this build more often? The reward feels much greater than the risk unless I'm missing something.
I remembering WOL Antiga shipyard, when every zerg built a few roaches because every terran was opening reactor hellion. It always did damage to pay for itself and if the terran was too greedy or had bad micro they got ahead. Feels like a similar situation to me.
Is there a safer, better macro opening? reactor without reaper? 1 rax fe?
thanks for all the help guys, I'm looking for a new agressive build after going cc first for months
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On November 06 2013 02:04 mau5mat wrote:
Could anyone recommend me the best TvT all in they can think of? Preferably with a professional game as a reference, thanks.
In wol i always felt a proxy thor rush with +1 armor (without a medevac) was the best all-in if the opponent did not open multiple rax (rauders shut it down hard). pull scvs to repair and bring a handful of marines to help out. I think widowmines and cheaper cloak have changed this a bit.
reactor-rax + reactor-factory + sp allow for a very aggressive hellion marine rush with medevac support.
All these work best in lower leagues below maser, but Im assuming thats what you want them for
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On November 06 2013 03:13 Doc Brawler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 01:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 05 2013 02:09 Doc Brawler wrote:
What is the best response to 10 gate msc pressure
I still see pros and gms take massive damage when a protoss does a proper 10 gate msc zealot stalker rush.
When dear did it to maru on derelict his stalker, zealot and msc reached the natural at 4:53. Every replay i have seen where a terran goes reaper, reactor the first two marines can not be ready until after 5:00 giving protoss a few seconds to just walk past the bunker on the low ground.
Is it safer to just build the cc on high ground and skip the bunker? or still build the bunker but hold the high ground? Maru scouted very late (he saw the Zealot coming at 3'37, i. e. after he had committed to expanding on the spot) and could have defended better; he didn't coordinate well enough the sandwich between the few units he had at natural and his SCVs/Marines coming from the main. Trying to hold lowground is also detrimental; with an earlier SCV scout, you can recognize the gate 10 and build both your CC and your Bunker in the main, making it much easier to sustain less damage. You have to send your Reaper on the Zealot so he retreats to the oncoming Stalker and the MSC. With a crisp execution of the build, your 2 first Marines are out at 4'47, and the next round at 5'12. Even if you stay on the high ground, Protoss will ignore your Bunker and try to walk by, but then his units will get damaged (focus the MSC if he's in range) and he will meet your ~10 SCVs + Marines 3-4. ok so i have 3 more questions, but the last might be better answered by a protoss -If you want to scout this before the cc is ploped down on low ground, when should you leave on a two player map? It looks like it would have to be much sooner than when the rax finishes, which hurts an already very tight build resource wise. -If its a 4 player map (like whirlwind, where dear did this again in the set) and you can not always confirm it is coming, what is the best practice if you still want to do this build? Is it just safer to blindly build cc on high ground? Or is solid micro just the best answer? Also, from replays it looks like a protoss can do all this with only being down only 2-4 probes from a normal expansion build, but their nexus is delayed a significant amount. Why not do this build more often? The reward feels much greater than the risk unless I'm missing something. I remembering WOL Antiga shipyard, when every zerg built a few roaches because every terran was opening reactor hellion. It always did damage to pay for itself and if the terran was too greedy or had bad micro they got ahead. Feels like a similar situation to me. Is there a safer, better macro opening? reactor without reaper? 1 rax fe? thanks for all the help guys, I'm looking for a new agressive build after going cc first for months
You should rally your cc on 14 supply to scout with reaper FE. On a 2 player map you should arrive in time to see his gateway/lack thereof right about when you have 400 minerals to plant a lowground CC, so you can decide whether to put it down or not or if you should send an scv to build a bunker.
I don't CC first much on whirlwind so can't answer that, though I would definitely favor CC first over reaper expand on that map.
Is there a safer opening? Not really. If you add another depot before CC your marines still come out at the same time after the reactor, if you go 15 gas reactor expand you're kinda safe but you lack the scouting of the reaper.
You can go reaper expand into reactor->factory, staying on gas like maru did on belshir vestige and that's quite good versus allins but transitions into bio much later and you then kinda need to do damage versus a greedy toss.
If you want to go aggressive on 4 player maps gas first widow mine/marine drop with hellions at the front is a very good build.
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