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On February 25 2013 13:11 Dienosore wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 12:48 Adam4167 wrote:
You can still change my mind, I am not a tunnel machine. I pull out of shit tunnels all the time, as I did with GoodKarma in Chrono or SacredSystem in a newbie I subbed into with Zarepath months ago.
You are right, we have more than enough time to deliberate, I am making my intentions known now so we can discuss it at depth.
You want to change my mind? Go find scum. I'd like to think Ill know pretty quickly if what you're posting is genuine or piffle.
Good to hear that you are willing to disarm, even if ever so slightly. Unfortunately, I am not the best scum hunter. I rely on my maps a lot, as you probably know, which usually require days of information and copious cross referencing before the incriminating connections really stand out. I'll try to whip up something before I go to bed tonight, though.
oh god i love the map
but ill have to wait until morning.
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On February 25 2013 13:06 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 12:55 Adam4167 wrote:On February 25 2013 12:47 cDgCorazon wrote:On February 25 2013 12:39 Acrofales wrote:On February 25 2013 12:35 iamperfection wrote:On February 25 2013 12:33 Dienosore wrote:
@marv: I've already mentioned that I trust you. If you sincerely believe that he isn't scum, then I will reconsider my hard stance. However, I would be a fool to not remain extremely suspicious until something happens that definitively clears up the situation.
@Hapa: He didn't just make a post about me. He called me out for a duel with his first post based on my first post. To me, this screams scum. why would you think someone being super aggressive is scummy should mean the opposite no? Aggression isn't a scum- or a town-tell. Aggression is simply aggression. Case in point: Mocsta NMM 37. Also, VE is pretty aggressive as either alignment. Just to name some examples. That said, Adam tends to lurk wayyyy too much as scum. His activity and early pressure on Dieno are uncharacteristic for his scum play. Too early to really tell, though. I still think Adam is lurking. Compared to most of the other people so far, he has been picking and choosing his times to talk very sparingly. Making one argument against Dieno and kind of attacking me/kind of not attacking me is really a drop in the ocean compared to the activity level the rest of the town has shown. I dropped my interest in you right about the time you said you wanted the two most abrasive and against-the-grain players to duel each other. That said to me that you are just being an emotional townie who wanted to get rid of people who weren't conforming to how you wanted the game played. I doubt scum would be making an argument like that, hence I have no interest in probing you further. Seriously, I was asked the question based off of 3-4 pages of the thread... If you seriously want to go hung-ho and call all of the shots, go ahead. There's no point in arguing with you, and I doubt my crappy internet can beat you to typing ##Duel once the Night period is over. Let's imagine a gung-ho player decides to duel someone that they have a scum read on, but the rest of the town does not agree with their reasoning. How do you choose between someone playing aggressive and someone you have a town read on? It's either going to result in the gung-ho player getting lynched or making a lynch that you are not happy with. Both are a waste of a Day cycle and are free kills for the scum basically. That's my biggest problem with you and Yamato's approach to the duel system. The fact that Yamato called me scum for it and that you are calling me emotional over it is absolutely ridiculous.
I call you emotional because I just cant see the logic behind wanting the two people causing the most discussion to duel each other. Mafia that sit in the spotlight almost always fry, and as a general rule, try to avoid it. The likelyhood of either of us being scum is not good as a result.
In your hypothetical, Id kill whoever was displaying the least value to the town, as in nomination mafia.
We aren't all going to agree with every lynch, and there will come a time when you may have to choose between two people you have some form of a town read on. If we all unanimously agree on all our reads then either a) our reads are wrong because the scum are agreeing with us, or b) the scum team is so inept that they got clean swept.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
Wow this thread kinda died out lol.
Ok this is what I got after the first day:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i48.tinypic.com/vyl9px.jpg) Nothing really interesting here that I didn't already pick up on from reading the thread. Very few town reads and lots of poop being thrown around. - Marv and Snarf have some sort of connection. - Adam, who is usually lurker supreme, has shown lots of action this game. - A couple lurkers: Alderan, Zarepath - A few unburrowed lurkers: Snarf, Keirathi, Thrawn, Sylencia - Corazon, Marv, and Yamato are at the center of things, with mixed lines from everyone. - Both Adam and Yamato have cleared Corazon as Towny after much argument.
K, that's about it. Not too much info to go on. Maybe the thread will pick up again tomorrow and we can actually make some forward progress and stop spinning our tires in the mud. Hopefully we will see some participation from Alderan and Zarapath soon.
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11589 Posts
Dieno who are some of your reads right now?
Any will do.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
I've cooled off a bit on Adam. If he still wants to get some, I'm here to call his bluff, but I think our time is better spent looking at a few other people right now. His level of activity is about 10x's what I have seen in past games already.
The connection between Marv and Snarf has me puzzled. I don't know what to make of it. Marv has heat coming in from a few directions, which is understandable considering how he has played so far, but Snarf on the other hand... he started off posting strong, boldly claimed towny, then kind of fell off the planet when people started agreeing with his policies. Seems fishy to just dump out like that after everything started agreeing and the spotlight was moved away.
Secondly, Oatsmaster jumped into the conversation a bit late, but the way he did it has me a little suspicious. He instantly threw doubt on Cora and started attacking Marv. He hasn't said anything super incriminating yet, but he is definitely on my 'To Watch' list.
Overall, there just really isn't enough info yet for me to be 100% about any read. I'm not even going to pretend I'm that good at mafia after two games to where I can call people out like that on day one. I definitely have a few suspicions, though I don't really see a reason to muddy up the waters with my speculation right now.
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
How about yourself, Yamato? Anything worth sharing right now?
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11589 Posts
For reference, I'm going to post my list of reads of the game right now. I don't really care if people think I'm right or wrong, but I'll include most relevant alignment indicative information to go along with it.
TOWN
Town criteria vary from person to person, and a lot of quick town reads I get are based on meta or simple activity in conjunction with meta. For some players, these things don't apply so much, so I judge them based on reads. You guys can figure out which ones of these I get how, because I hate telling people why I have a town read on them, in general.
Marv
Corazon
Adam
Iamp
Dienosore
Oats
NULL
These players either haven't posted enough or are posting things that don't give me an alignment feel of them. Obviously.
Snarfs
Acrofales
Keirathi
Zarepath
Alderan
Sylencia
Lots of lurky fuckers so far this game and one ambiguous dude.
MAFIA
HAPA
On February 25 2013 07:15 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I know we're not agreeing over general policy and whatnot, but just promise me that you'll atleast seek the town's input before you go "IT'S TIME TO D-D-D-D-D-DUEL!" Playing hero can end really really badly.
A lot of his early posting was devoted to arguing with me about the setup, which many people did, but the way he did it bothered me, and it is exemplified in this post. He parroted Marvellosity a lot and generally tried to follow him. Example:
On February 25 2013 06:46 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 06:39 yamato77 wrote:
What you're proposing is a policy, and one that is insanely difficult to enforce.
I understand how having one town looking player duel one mafia looking player might stagnate discussion after the duel. I do think I will be able to extract enough information from the selection period to make a good lynch decision on my own, however, should town fail to implement you guy's plan effectively. Hence the policy I proposed earlier. @ MarvShow nested quote +On February 25 2013 05:03 marvellosity wrote:
yeah I'll talk about it more after dinner. I don't like Corazon already. Can you expand on Cora?
First he makes this post, asking Marv to expand on Cora, and Marv does. What is interesting here is Hapa's next move:
On February 25 2013 06:57 Hapahauli wrote:Ok this is getting nowhere. @ CoraShow nested quote +On February 25 2013 05:17 cDgCorazon wrote:On February 25 2013 05:03 marvellosity wrote:
yeah I'll talk about it more after dinner. I don't like Corazon already. If you've ever seen any of my other games, you'll find that no one ever likes me... Let's not start with the "woe is me" attitude. Why did people not like you in your previous games, and what are you going to do about it this game?
He begins a line of questioning with Cora, presumably with a negative attitude toward him. How does he follow up?
On February 25 2013 08:57 Hapahauli wrote:
Corazon, I get the impression that you're more concerned with calling Sylencia a dick rather than anything else. It's fine if you don't get along with him, but it does nothing for town objectives.
Meekly. So far a lot of his posting is this kind of thing, where he mildly scolds a player (myself, Corazon, etc) for doing something vaguely anti-town. He doesn't seem particularly interested in finding mafia, just with appearing to do so with vague questions that he never really pushes, such as this:
On February 25 2013 11:11 Hapahauli wrote:@ OatsShow nested quote +On February 25 2013 10:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
Hey guys,
Cora is scummy for wanting to lynch rouge players and not actually scum, and in no way linking rouge play to playing like scum.
Marv is also kinda suspicious. He seems too polite and that policy post had pregame written all over it. Two things about this post: 1) It sounds a lot like you're jumping on Cora by taking his one statement about "rouge players" out of context. He's been pretty vocal about Yamato, and I think it's pretty clear that he links Yamato's behavior to scummy behavior. 2) That Marv read makes no sense. If you actually read his filter, I don't know how you could come to the conclusion that he's been over-polite. Example: Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 06:46 marvellosity wrote:
It's not insanely difficult to enforce. It should be not too hard to find at least the group of people we want to lynch into, and then give a deadline/ultimatum for 2 of them to duel, or if there's 1 clear frontrunner, give a couple of people the choice of whether they want to duel with the frontrunner.
Actually the information you'll get from how people deal with this while under suspicion is probably far greater than any information you'll get from just having one clear townie dueling with someone suspicious. Whether ppl duel like they're asked, or go afk, how the suspects deal with the whole dueling situation - there's a whole mine of good shit there.
Further, I overwhelmingly back my judgement on who mafia are and are not over yours, yamato, so the last thing I need is you running off playing the hero.
He comments on things in people's play, but I haven't seen him make a real comment about alignment aside from iamperfection yet this game, and I'm not at all sold on that idea. I don't believe Hapahauli is concerned with finding mafia, but I do think he's doing a particularly good job blending in by asking a lot of questions and being mildly active. His mafia meta is somewhat close to this, if I remember Dessert correctly, so I'm interested to see how it develops. So far, he's been different from the town-leader Hapahauli that I am used to seeing.
THRAWN
Mostly a meta read, to be honest. In Normal Mini IV, iamperfection accurately categorized thrawn's mafia play as lurky, and successfully lynched him on that idea. So far he's been fairly lurky, and what he has posted doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me with the idea that he's town. His biggest interaction is with Oats, and I don't see where he reaches any sort of conclusion about Oats in it.
Also of note is his "scum read" on iamp, which he has wholly failed to justify beyond:
On February 25 2013 10:06 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 09:58 Acrofales wrote:On February 25 2013 09:53 thrawn2112 wrote:
I don't think much policy related thought needs to go into dueling. The more arbitrary rules and policies we try to enforce, the more rules and policies scum have available to hide their actions behind. Let the game flow naturally as to counteract unnatural reads brought on by unnatural/arbitrary policies.
lol, clearly this town ain't big enough. that much is already apparent
Those first posts are a bitch to write, aren't they? Way to say nothing! What do you think of yamato and cora? I'm not willing to commit to a read on cora yet. Nothing he's posted so far is all that alignment indicative, coming from him. As for yamato... maybe slighty town? I disagree with the logic behind nearly all of what he's said so far but he's acting in a townish manner. Iamp could be scum. All he's done is drop off a town read and comment on how useless the thread is.
and
On February 25 2013 11:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
Yeah I think iamp's scum. I can't feel the townie thought process behind his posts and his explanations are short and dismissive.
To me, that's not exactly evidence of strong scumhunting. Perhaps time will flesh this out, but right now I'm not impressed.
Anyway, it's early and a bunch of people have yet to post but that's where I sit right now. I'm going to bed. I'll be sporadically active the next couple of days, but I'll have enough time to catch some mafia for sure.
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Acro, how is having reads a scumtell?
And how is attacking vets a scumtell?
He instantly threw doubt on Cora and started attacking Marv.
Dieno dont sheep Acro,
Why is this scummy?
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oats plz stop removing the names in your quotes. you've done it the whole game so far. thx
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Is it not obvious who I am talking to because I refer to their name after I quote?
Really thrawn?
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pretty please? 
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On February 25 2013 12:05 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 11:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
Yeah I think iamp's scum. I can't feel the townie thought process behind his posts and his explanations are short and dismissive. You seem to know him quite a bit better than I do. Please explain to me how this is different from when he's town?
His town is similar to this game (i'm not familiar with his scum meta) but in this game, he doesn't really seem to be trying to contribute. He seems uncooperative. Also, I don't like how liberally he's been throwing out town reads, especially when those town reads are backed up by extremely simplistic explanations.
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He did it in themed too thrawn, what makes this game different?
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idk i didn't read themed.
*****
I just read the first few pages of his filter in themed and he is helpful in that game despite not always explaining reads. In this game, I get a "fuck off don't question me" vibe from his posts.
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I dont agree with you necessarily, in themed no one questioned him or thought he was scum, here, he got called scummy, so he was like wtf guys Im so town, so screw you.
I would like to see content from him though :D
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Oats what;s the status of your marv read? And do you have any alternate scumreads?
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Its on hold cause there is no way Marv is getting lynched now,
Again he hasnt really done anything this game, like Iamp
Acro is also somewhat scummy, cant really pin down what it is though :/
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hmm I actually agree with you about acro
He's been playing something like a peaceable negotiator.. he's entered several conversations but he takes very neutral sounding positions. "Peaceable" meaning not willing to take stances and call people scummy. He's been mostly arguing logic and the scum reads he gives are pretty weak.
For example this post:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 25 2013 12:35 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 12:25 Hapahauli wrote:On February 25 2013 12:22 Acrofales wrote:On February 25 2013 12:18 Hapahauli wrote:On February 25 2013 12:14 iamperfection wrote:On February 25 2013 12:13 Hapahauli wrote:On February 25 2013 12:11 iamperfection wrote:On February 25 2013 12:03 Hapahauli wrote:On February 25 2013 11:56 marvellosity wrote:no idea how i fucked that one up On February 25 2013 11:52 Hapahauli wrote:
[quote]
Oh come on Marv. I miss shit like that all the time as town and you know it. the fact remains that you basically haven't done anything this game except attack iamp, and you've done so under false pretenses. I have no real reason to think of you as town right now False pretenses? That's just one of the several reasons I'm suspicious of him right now. I think he's scummy due to his his nonsensical Thrawn read, as well has him name-dropping Dieno. On February 25 2013 10:28 iamperfection wrote:
the answer is snarfs or dino man corazon. Also, this post in general is really scummy in context. Why on earth is he answering a question for Corazon? In fact his posts right after that suggests that he's suspicious of Cora at point: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398360¤tpage=12#221http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398360¤tpage=12#222The thought-process makes no sense. He's suspicious of Cora, yet he's willing to answer questions for him? Nope. for someone that has played a ton of games with me it seems like you are puzzled by my actions. dont get it hapa and this is still the only thing you are doing is commenting on me. If this is what you plan on doing all cycle i think you have to be scum. your tunneling of me for no reason other than you dont like some of my reads. explain how any of my actions are scummy am i afraid of the spotlight? am i interested in lynching scum? you havent done any of that and wont comment on anything else despite saying you have more material. maybe your just bad at scum hapa I'll admit you're getting better with the "spotlight" and "activity" thing. Though answer what I posted above: why were you answering questions for Corazon? because i felt like it. Fuck it that a town iamp response if I've ever seen one. Time to look into some other peeps. Iamp's last scumgame was GSL 3, about 4 months ago. Since then he's played quite a bit of town. Do you really think this one easy sentence is enough to proclaim him town? That "I'll do whatever the fuck I want" mentality is town-iamp in a nutshell. Also, his activity is vastly-improved from when I started off on him. So it's a combination of the attitude that sentence purveys and his increased activity. But he's had that attitude all game. Thrawn thought he was scum for it, you think he's town for it. I have no clue, I'd say he's playing pretty similar to the start of CT, where he was town, but I thought he could be scum. He is aggressive and doesn't give a shit. However, the reasons I doubt him are still the same: he gives no reasons, isn't forceful about his reads and has this post: Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 07:04 iamperfection wrote:On February 25 2013 07:02 yamato77 wrote:On February 25 2013 06:59 marvellosity wrote:
Why do you think town will? As far as I can see you're the one in the thread being retarded so far, so if it does it'll be because of people like you.
Like I said, the last thing town needs is someone like you playing the hero. The last thing town needs is a bunch of people yelling at each other to duel someone else. But whatever, do what you want. I'm only going to duel someone if things go bad, which I think they will. If they go your way, good, but I doubt it. Town is rarely that cooperative. meh you just haven't experienced many good towns im gonna guess mafia will be under pressure from this setup im gonna guess since time is on our side. And looking at the player list some of the better players will likely be town so we will be able to sweat the mafia i would say This post is pointless, but a suspicious mind might think why even bother bringing it up? How does Iamp know that good players are likely town, rather than scum? I don't say anything of it is very conclusive, but given that you and thrawn reach different conclusions based on the same meta, one of you must be wrong and getting some more info on why you think the meta makes him town is important.
That's a lot of words/thoughts to write without coming to any real conclusions.
He's got an inconclusive read on iamp, and says one of hapa or thrawn might have extra information they're using to make differing meta reads on iamp. Since hapa is calling iamp town, thrawn is calling him scum, that means that the only scenarios where that original statement makes sense is either if hapa is mafia and iamp is town, or if thrawn and iamp are both scum. But Acro doesn't mention any of this....... I suspect because he hasn't actually thought through it to realize how silly it is. It doesn't seem like a real read that a townie would have.
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the only likely outcome of his (false) dichotomy is that hapa is scum. but if that is the logical conclusion of the reasoning he's using I think he'd be acting more accusatory of hapa.
the point is that it's a really strange argument to present, it leads to a (likely) singular conclusion that he doesn't mention, and the whole pretense (1 of hapa/thrawn is town and the other is scum) isn't based on anything. He's assuming that one of us is wrong because we're town, and the other one is right because they're scum.. why would he use this assumption as his starting point?
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On February 25 2013 16:24 Dienosore wrote:
I've cooled off a bit on Adam. If he still wants to get some, I'm here to call his bluff, but I think our time is better spent looking at a few other people right now. His level of activity is about 10x's what I have seen in past games already.
The connection between Marv and Snarf has me puzzled. I don't know what to make of it. Marv has heat coming in from a few directions, which is understandable considering how he has played so far, but Snarf on the other hand... he started off posting strong, boldly claimed towny, then kind of fell off the planet when people started agreeing with his policies. Seems fishy to just dump out like that after everything started agreeing and the spotlight was moved away.
Secondly, Oatsmaster jumped into the conversation a bit late, but the way he did it has me a little suspicious. He instantly threw doubt on Cora and started attacking Marv. He hasn't said anything super incriminating yet, but he is definitely on my 'To Watch' list.
Overall, there just really isn't enough info yet for me to be 100% about any read. I'm not even going to pretend I'm that good at mafia after two games to where I can call people out like that on day one. I definitely have a few suspicions, though I don't really see a reason to muddy up the waters with my speculation right now.
Its not a bluff, I will call someone out for a duel when i'm satisfied that its the right call.
In regards to your point on Oats - what is the likely-hood that a scum-Oats would come into this game and choose to attack a town-marv directly on day 1?
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EPT
