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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 26 2011 09:11 Fuzzmosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 09:03 FoeHamr wrote:On August 26 2011 09:01 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:52 -_- wrote:On August 26 2011 08:48 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:39 babjengi wrote:On August 26 2011 08:28 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:24 IVN wrote:On August 26 2011 08:03 Endymion wrote:
Omg, the ramp vision change is going to be massive. However, I can tell terrans are going to be super mad about the reduced hellion strength, they're going to be so bad now.. They are going to be good now, as opposed to over powered. I've never managed to kill 10+ workers with only 2 units, when playing protoss. I'd like to introduce you to your friends, Dark Templar. Well, I'm happier that you apparently don't know about these harassive and defensive powerhouses, but I figure it's my duty to help spread the love of invisible decimation. This comment right here proves you know nothing about the game. Just one spore crawler and one spine crawler at a base, and with just that, I have to have at least 4+ dark templar to take that base (not to mention, drones run faster than dt's). I need even more if the queen has energy for a transfuse. Against a terran with planetary fortress and one missile turret + scans, and 100 dt's couldn't touch that. Hellions? Who cares if you lose them. If each hellion kills 1.5 workers, they've paid for themselves. DT's? Not so much. It's weird, I was murmering about BFH's having friendly fire earlier, and everyone more concentrated on the part about Banelings/Collusi. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Here's a hint: if you're attacking a terran or zerg with 4 DT's and they have a single detector, attack that detector. It goes down in 5 hits. (4 if terran). Huh. That was easy. Are you sure you're playing right? The original question also came down to the worlds most pathetic "I don't have a protoss unit that can get 10 worker kills", and suddenly I'm forced to argue about BFH's. Thanks internet. You're all lovely people. Jesus, Protoss really like martying their units. Blue Flame Hellions are terrible when they get inside. Just like ling runbys, only BFH's only kill workers and not your production and entire base and only really come in 4's most of the time and not 50. So, how did people counter ling runbys? Even with the damaged reduced, Hellions will still be happily roasting workers at a slower rate because it interupts mining. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Stop acting so defensive. Also, for the other guy: So his point was he needs to spend more resources to attack a defended base than a Terran would to attack an undefended base. Gotcha. Maybe he was trying to say that the Sim City to defend against BFH's is much more complex than the sim city to defend against DT's without commenting on any of the other DT's offensive and defensive use deliberately to dry to devaluate them because I had placed value on them in regards to an earlier point and now everyone is in on this? I don't understand. Your saying the DT is the equivalent of hellions or something but if that's your argument, your wrong. Your comparing a cheap and low-investment anti-light unit(workers happen to be light) to an expensive high-investment cloaked unit that you basically suicide in order to trade for workers. edit for clarification Again, from the start: A protoss whined he couldn't kill workers with units. I propsed DT's as harassive and defensive powerhouses that could do that very thing (Hiya Huk Vs. Nada! How's it going? What's that? DT's raped defensively and harassively?). Suddenly, I am now forced to prove my understanding of the game valuating a DT against a blue flame hellion because nerds are nerds and apparently I make fun of one Brotoss who says something terribly stupid, and I make fun of them all.
Riiiiiight, the one game. The difference between hellions and DTs is, that hellions are in fact that good, that even with half a brain, one can do enormous economic damage. Thats why you see in almost every game 2 hellions eradicate half, or even an entire mineral line. Obviously hellions in their current form are too easy to use - since almost every terran gets good results with them = skill is irrelevant - and to powerful. DTs on the other hand require skill to use. To do damage with DTs - since they are slow and costly - you have to prevent scouting (for hellions you dont really have to), and you have to hit a timing.
Huk's game is the best case scenario, Inca vs Nestea is the worst case scenario.
With hellions, there is no worst case scenario.
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On August 26 2011 09:11 Fuzzmosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 09:03 FoeHamr wrote:On August 26 2011 09:01 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:52 -_- wrote:On August 26 2011 08:48 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:39 babjengi wrote:On August 26 2011 08:28 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:24 IVN wrote:On August 26 2011 08:03 Endymion wrote:
Omg, the ramp vision change is going to be massive. However, I can tell terrans are going to be super mad about the reduced hellion strength, they're going to be so bad now.. They are going to be good now, as opposed to over powered. I've never managed to kill 10+ workers with only 2 units, when playing protoss. I'd like to introduce you to your friends, Dark Templar. Well, I'm happier that you apparently don't know about these harassive and defensive powerhouses, but I figure it's my duty to help spread the love of invisible decimation. This comment right here proves you know nothing about the game. Just one spore crawler and one spine crawler at a base, and with just that, I have to have at least 4+ dark templar to take that base (not to mention, drones run faster than dt's). I need even more if the queen has energy for a transfuse. Against a terran with planetary fortress and one missile turret + scans, and 100 dt's couldn't touch that. Hellions? Who cares if you lose them. If each hellion kills 1.5 workers, they've paid for themselves. DT's? Not so much. It's weird, I was murmering about BFH's having friendly fire earlier, and everyone more concentrated on the part about Banelings/Collusi. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Here's a hint: if you're attacking a terran or zerg with 4 DT's and they have a single detector, attack that detector. It goes down in 5 hits. (4 if terran). Huh. That was easy. Are you sure you're playing right? The original question also came down to the worlds most pathetic "I don't have a protoss unit that can get 10 worker kills", and suddenly I'm forced to argue about BFH's. Thanks internet. You're all lovely people. Jesus, Protoss really like martying their units. Blue Flame Hellions are terrible when they get inside. Just like ling runbys, only BFH's only kill workers and not your production and entire base and only really come in 4's most of the time and not 50. So, how did people counter ling runbys? Even with the damaged reduced, Hellions will still be happily roasting workers at a slower rate because it interupts mining. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Stop acting so defensive. Also, for the other guy: So his point was he needs to spend more resources to attack a defended base than a Terran would to attack an undefended base. Gotcha. Maybe he was trying to say that the Sim City to defend against BFH's is much more complex than the sim city to defend against DT's without commenting on any of the other DT's offensive and defensive use deliberately to dry to devaluate them because I had placed value on them in regards to an earlier point and now everyone is in on this? I don't understand. Your saying the DT is the equivalent of hellions or something but if that's your argument, your wrong. Your comparing a cheap and low-investment anti-light unit(workers happen to be light) to an expensive high-investment cloaked unit that you basically suicide in order to trade for workers. edit for clarification Again, from the start: A protoss whined he couldn't kill workers with units. I propsed DT's as harassive and defensive powerhouses that could do that very thing (Hiya Huk Vs. Nada! How's it going? What's that? DT's raped defensively and harassively?). Suddenly, I am now forced to prove my understanding of the game valuating a DT against a blue flame hellion because nerds are nerds and apparently I make fun of one Brotoss who says something terribly stupid, and I make fun of them all.
Man, I play zerg. I was just asking for clarification.
The thing is when DT's attack, you can get emergency detection(via scan, cannons, or an overseer). You will lose some workers but if you have the right tech in place you can prevent it fairly effectively with minimal economy loss, even if you are out of position. DT's are also a huge investment of time, minerals, and gas, so they HAVE to do damage. Hellions simply don't have to. They are less of a time, mineral, and gas investment, come sooner, and can do arguably more damage. And the rate they do damage is ridiculous. I see the dropship coming, and by the time tell everyone to run and spread out, and rally my lings back to my base, the hellions have killed a shit ton of workers and justified the cost.
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On August 26 2011 07:59 Fuzzmosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:50 Dommk wrote:On August 26 2011 07:43 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 07:35 Dommk wrote:Cast 2 storms on a group of 21 hold position zealots (In shockinlyg perfect formation for this situation) and you kill 21 zealots for 150 energy over 8 seconds.
Cast 2 Seeker Missles on 21 hold position zealots (also, in startlingly tight and perfect formation) and you kill 5 (And leave 8 undamaged) for 250 energy (and in about 1 second unless you cast right over top the unit, which means friendly fire will nuke a Raven)
How did you work this out 0o? I can't find the damage calculations for Seeker as the unit is further away from the centre of the explosion. And by 8 Zealots being undamaged, you mean they only took shield damage correct? But now lets make a comparison, 2 Storms on a group of Zealots running away and you won't scratch them, 2 Seekers on a group of Zealots running away and you still have the same result. 8 seconds is a really LONG time That came from a day when I 2xHSM'ed an attacking Zealot army that was mobile and did around 400 damage, then decided to go to Yee olde Unite Testere (With Extra E's!) And test just how much damage HSM did. It wasn't pretty. Actually, going off memory, I think I couldn't hit 2 zealots with the storms, so only 19 died. My apologies on that. I actually mean that it didn't do any damage at all. Baneling explosion without fall off has a larger damage range than HSM even at it's 25 damage range. Also, you're wrong. 2 Storms on a group of zealots running away and you'll do maybe 40 shield damage to all of them (Kinda similar to what 2 Emps would do). 2 HSM's on a group of zealots running away and you'll do 0 damage because HSM needs to be cast only when someone isn't paying attention or is moving towards you (And because of friendly fire, is very dangerous to cast a HSM on a 150 hp zealot charging towards 6 55 hp marines. It's pretty awkward to need to kite your own spell) I don't understand how it can do 0 damage when the Spell has a 33% greater AOE than Psi-Storm. If Psi-Storm can hit 19 Zealots, then Seeker should be able to hit 25 Seeker Missile is almost 0.25 Speed faster than a Chargelot (0.75 faster than a regular one). If you Seeker Missile a Zealot in the middle of the pack, there is almost no chance it can be micro'd away. But for all intensive purposes, if it can be hit by Storm then it can be hit by Seeker Missile. But different Spells are different. Psi-Storm can only ever do 20DPS per 1.5radious AOE. Multiple Seekers on the other hand can be chained, which makes the spell significantly stronger when the Raven number increases So... let's see here. I cast a missile that is 9 distance away from an already retreating zealot, moving .75 speed faster. You're saying that in 12 seconds, the zealots cannot be scattered. I'm worried about your opinion of protoss players. Again, if they are charging or not retreating, different story, but this is your example. (IF they have charge, if they are retreating, they can't even be hit if durable materials DOUBLED the length because the missile craps out) For the damage range, I have no idea why. I did the test in a unit tester. Maybe the map maker modified the HSM in that case, but storm was more effective than HSM period for less energy. Even 1 cast. You're free to clump up high HP units (And low HP units) and give it your own test. You may come back and say "Fuzzy, you screwed up, clearly you did it wrong" or "Huh. That's stupid". Either or, but please do try it since your other explanations have worried me.
Oh cool, so you start talking shots at me as well. Guess I see where this is going.
First part is obviously wrong, which is worrying when a Terran player doesn't even know the cast range of their own spells nor the mechanics...
Second part, it makes no sense what so ever that in YOUR example there were MORE Zealots that took NO damage from HS than with Psi Storm. Hunter Seeker has a _33%_ greater AOE. So all it means is your tests were incredibly faulty when something basic as a spell with greater AOE hitting less units standing still than a Spell with smaller AOE. I really can't take your "Tests" very seriously at all, sorry
NInja Edit, like you!
Yes, Psi Storm does have the potential to hit your own zealots. Not going to even try to deny that. But being a cheap, instant cast that can be produced easier than a Raven (Less Gas, less wait, 5 second summon) that does more damage over an area (You keep calling that into question, I keep telling you to test) doing friendly fire or a suicide attack is better than a detector with other useful spells suiciding because of a terrible, terrible spell. In addition, you need to march your own units into the spell. HSM can be led into your own units (Assuming amazing Micro, or amazing luck).
I'm sorry, you may act like I'm being snide by disregarding your "Tests", but they ARE faulty. I mean, a spell with 1.5 AOE hits more units than a spell with 2.0 AOE. I can't understand how when something as basic as that is wrong that you wouldn't somehow think you fucked up your tests in one way or another.
High Tempalrs put a 45second cooldown on warpgates. Protoss does have flexibility with warpgate units, but you just can't create whatever you want whenever you want, you have to juggle cooldowns to create a proper balanced army.
A raven costs 50/50 more than a Templar, but the benefits? It provides Detection, most almost twice as fast, it can fly AND has other spells which can greatly benefit the Terran army. Obviously due to the convenience of Tech labs and such compared to Warpgates, a Protoss WILL have more Templars in their army, but there is nothing wrong with that.
Different races will have different units, but at least damage wise, Seeker Missile has the same energy efficiency as a 3second Storm which is pretty goddamn good if you consider that all its damage is BURST as opposed to a 20dps AOE--you would except something that does it's damage over a longer period of time with a smaller AOE in a static location would be more efficient if a unit stands in it for the full duration.
A Hunter Seeker could be lead into your army, but the only Melee unit Terran actually has is an SCV--good luck trying to lead Seeker Missile into ranged Units that move faster than it and have soo much DPS that they can almost instantly snipe whatever that unit is
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On August 26 2011 09:12 h0oTiS wrote:
quote
You didn't even read what I said... -_-;;; I said if they have ONE spore and ONE spine, I need FOUR+ (that means 4 or more) to take it out. And I said moreso if the queen can transfuse. I wonder why that is? Oh, and you kill a turret, that's cute. I'm sure scans have nothing to do with anything, and I'm sure terrans only build 1 turret at a planetary fortress.
why do you need 4 plus spine crawlers are you leaving 16 drones at your nat expand on xel naga i mean wtf its not that hard on any other map and maybe maybe you need 4 on xelnaga but you have plently of time to scout what your opponent is doing because you can send your ovy right away. Also pro tip roaches are good units and lings even will do the job if you have half a brain in your head on how to position them ex DERP I SEE BFLAME what do one get queens on ramp(ie creep spread) to block and leave one spine on low ground to pick hellions as they try(not sucsessful) to come up. Worst case your queens aren't positioned correctly and they get by whooops wait for roaches or just make 20 lings and have them at the top of your ramp and suprise the hellions as soon as they come up killing them instantly with minimal splash dammage taken your 400+ minerals ahead if you even just think about how to take hellions down.
side note you have to have 1 spore 1 spine for dt well you say terran can make planitary fortress but that acutallly costs 6 scvs to make (ie no muel) not if you think about it terran can't just make plantiary foress every unless your willing to be behind although well defended hoping the other player just throws untis at you
You didn't read anything before -_-;;; I meant you need 4+ dt's to take out a zerg base defended by 1 spore, 1 spine, and 1 queen (especially if queen has transfuse). This is generally in reference to the defense laid out usually on every base except the one at the nat (which usually has even more spores and spines).
DERP I see bflame, it just got dropped in my mineral line... my roaches are in my natural... by the time I run them up the ramp... oh look, I lost more than enough drones for the terran to justify the cost of those hellions 10 times. You don't even know what we're arguing... I'm not sure how you even have a point to try and make.
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I might actually use immortals and warp prisms now that they aren't out ranged by pretty much everything but a roach and can take more than 3 stimmed marines for 2 seconds before dying
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On August 26 2011 09:18 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 09:11 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 09:03 FoeHamr wrote:On August 26 2011 09:01 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:52 -_- wrote:On August 26 2011 08:48 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:39 babjengi wrote:On August 26 2011 08:28 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:24 IVN wrote:On August 26 2011 08:03 Endymion wrote:
Omg, the ramp vision change is going to be massive. However, I can tell terrans are going to be super mad about the reduced hellion strength, they're going to be so bad now.. They are going to be good now, as opposed to over powered. I've never managed to kill 10+ workers with only 2 units, when playing protoss. I'd like to introduce you to your friends, Dark Templar. Well, I'm happier that you apparently don't know about these harassive and defensive powerhouses, but I figure it's my duty to help spread the love of invisible decimation. This comment right here proves you know nothing about the game. Just one spore crawler and one spine crawler at a base, and with just that, I have to have at least 4+ dark templar to take that base (not to mention, drones run faster than dt's). I need even more if the queen has energy for a transfuse. Against a terran with planetary fortress and one missile turret + scans, and 100 dt's couldn't touch that. Hellions? Who cares if you lose them. If each hellion kills 1.5 workers, they've paid for themselves. DT's? Not so much. It's weird, I was murmering about BFH's having friendly fire earlier, and everyone more concentrated on the part about Banelings/Collusi. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Here's a hint: if you're attacking a terran or zerg with 4 DT's and they have a single detector, attack that detector. It goes down in 5 hits. (4 if terran). Huh. That was easy. Are you sure you're playing right? The original question also came down to the worlds most pathetic "I don't have a protoss unit that can get 10 worker kills", and suddenly I'm forced to argue about BFH's. Thanks internet. You're all lovely people. Jesus, Protoss really like martying their units. Blue Flame Hellions are terrible when they get inside. Just like ling runbys, only BFH's only kill workers and not your production and entire base and only really come in 4's most of the time and not 50. So, how did people counter ling runbys? Even with the damaged reduced, Hellions will still be happily roasting workers at a slower rate because it interupts mining. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Stop acting so defensive. Also, for the other guy: So his point was he needs to spend more resources to attack a defended base than a Terran would to attack an undefended base. Gotcha. Maybe he was trying to say that the Sim City to defend against BFH's is much more complex than the sim city to defend against DT's without commenting on any of the other DT's offensive and defensive use deliberately to dry to devaluate them because I had placed value on them in regards to an earlier point and now everyone is in on this? I don't understand. Your saying the DT is the equivalent of hellions or something but if that's your argument, your wrong. Your comparing a cheap and low-investment anti-light unit(workers happen to be light) to an expensive high-investment cloaked unit that you basically suicide in order to trade for workers. edit for clarification Again, from the start: A protoss whined he couldn't kill workers with units. I propsed DT's as harassive and defensive powerhouses that could do that very thing (Hiya Huk Vs. Nada! How's it going? What's that? DT's raped defensively and harassively?). Suddenly, I am now forced to prove my understanding of the game valuating a DT against a blue flame hellion because nerds are nerds and apparently I make fun of one Brotoss who says something terribly stupid, and I make fun of them all. Riiiiiight, the one game. The difference between hellions and DTs is, that hellions are in fact that good, that even with half a brain, one can do enormous economic damage. Thats why you see in almost every game 2 hellions eradicate half, or even an entire mineral line. Obviously hellions in their current form are to easy to use - since almost every terran gets good results with them = skill is irrelevant - and to powerful. DTs on the other hand require skill to use. To do damage with DTs - since they are slow and costly - you have to prevent scouting (for hellions you dont really have to), and you have to hit a timing. Huk's game is the best case scenario, Inca vs Nestea is the worst case scenario. With hellions, there is no worst case scenario.
So, when I agree with the valuation of BFH's needing a change, make a note that hellions will still attack mineral lines so some defense or other change is neccesary anyway, and made a point I was drawn into an argument with nerds who are intent on arguing a point I'm not entirely against, you keep talking. Thank you. I love being a nerd for moments like this. After I go and shower, we're going to hug! I guess to be fair, they were in multiple conversations with people, but we gotta hug now.
As a side note, I'm surprised at the lack of zergs celebrating a slightly easier detector against DT's/Banshees, since they often say gas is their limiting factor, and a slightly cheaper scout!
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On August 26 2011 08:43 dudecrush wrote:
I love this patch.
Old infestors: 36 vs. unarmored, 46.8 vs. armored.
New infestors: 30 vs. unarmored, 40 vs. armored.
Not a huge change, but not insignificant either. And I love the mothership speed boost. I'm zerg, but I love the mothership so much.
lol wanna play I use one every game if I'm allowed to get that far vs Z. By far my favorite Protoss unit. Never understood the hate.
My strat is FFE followed by 2 stargate building VRs. At about 4-6 VR I try and snipe a hatch. By 10 min I have a MS on the way. She sits in expo and recalls my ever growing VR hit squad. She then moves to third and sits over that and cannons doing same recall role. Fun fun.
Can't wait to try recall with these buffed WPs. I have so many minerals anyway.
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The P.T.R is up!. Go test it out everyone.
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On August 26 2011 09:28 Garnet wrote:
The P.T.R is up!. Go test it out everyone.
haha whont to say it 1st to ppl  but ok nice
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The ramp change is such that almost exactly the top half of the ramp is hidden from view. Vision mechanics for ramps as far as I can tell haven't changed. For PvP purposes you always want to FF the bottom of the ramp because now they cannot warp over the FF. Makes quite a bit worse now though because there is no way to brute force the sentries away from the ramp now if you are paying attention.
There are 3 forcefield placements that block enemies from going up a ramp. 2 of them now completely deny warpins and vision so 4gate should officially be dead against any build that incorporates sentries and can stop pylons from going up inside the main base. Doesn't fix tal'darim, but every other map is pretty good.
EDIT: added pics.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cfbbv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uqahl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HviUX.jpg)
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Sotg rants work!
But I'm satisfied. hopefully the non terran fare better now
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Canada13427 Posts
On August 26 2011 09:44 Amui wrote:
The ramp change is such that almost exactly the top half of the ramp is hidden from view. Vision mechanics for ramps as far as I can tell haven't changed. For PvP purposes you always want to FF the bottom of the ramp because now they cannot warp over the FF. Makes quite a bit worse now though because there is no way to brute force the sentries away from the ramp now if you are paying attention.
imo making it so low to high ground attacks lose one range would make for a much more dynamic game. Or you know just reintroduce the accuracy drop low to high ground attacks.
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Out of interest, how long does the period usually take between the PTR going up and the patch being implemented?
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My two favorite changes have to be the vision change and the Immortal range upgrade.
I recall in an interview Blizzard saying they intended the Immortal to be a meat shield, but admitted that it didn't turn out that way. I'm glad that they're acting upon their observations. The Immortal is best when able to continue to deal its damage to armored units. When it's at the front line and gets easily focus-fired, it doesn't really pay for itself. The +1 range will help address this issue.
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On August 26 2011 09:11 Fuzzmosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 09:03 FoeHamr wrote:On August 26 2011 09:01 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:52 -_- wrote:On August 26 2011 08:48 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:39 babjengi wrote:On August 26 2011 08:28 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 08:24 IVN wrote:On August 26 2011 08:03 Endymion wrote:
Omg, the ramp vision change is going to be massive. However, I can tell terrans are going to be super mad about the reduced hellion strength, they're going to be so bad now.. They are going to be good now, as opposed to over powered. I've never managed to kill 10+ workers with only 2 units, when playing protoss. I'd like to introduce you to your friends, Dark Templar. Well, I'm happier that you apparently don't know about these harassive and defensive powerhouses, but I figure it's my duty to help spread the love of invisible decimation. This comment right here proves you know nothing about the game. Just one spore crawler and one spine crawler at a base, and with just that, I have to have at least 4+ dark templar to take that base (not to mention, drones run faster than dt's). I need even more if the queen has energy for a transfuse. Against a terran with planetary fortress and one missile turret + scans, and 100 dt's couldn't touch that. Hellions? Who cares if you lose them. If each hellion kills 1.5 workers, they've paid for themselves. DT's? Not so much. It's weird, I was murmering about BFH's having friendly fire earlier, and everyone more concentrated on the part about Banelings/Collusi. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Here's a hint: if you're attacking a terran or zerg with 4 DT's and they have a single detector, attack that detector. It goes down in 5 hits. (4 if terran). Huh. That was easy. Are you sure you're playing right? The original question also came down to the worlds most pathetic "I don't have a protoss unit that can get 10 worker kills", and suddenly I'm forced to argue about BFH's. Thanks internet. You're all lovely people. Jesus, Protoss really like martying their units. Blue Flame Hellions are terrible when they get inside. Just like ling runbys, only BFH's only kill workers and not your production and entire base and only really come in 4's most of the time and not 50. So, how did people counter ling runbys? Even with the damaged reduced, Hellions will still be happily roasting workers at a slower rate because it interupts mining. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Stop acting so defensive. Also, for the other guy: So his point was he needs to spend more resources to attack a defended base than a Terran would to attack an undefended base. Gotcha. Maybe he was trying to say that the Sim City to defend against BFH's is much more complex than the sim city to defend against DT's without commenting on any of the other DT's offensive and defensive use deliberately to dry to devaluate them because I had placed value on them in regards to an earlier point and now everyone is in on this? I don't understand. Your saying the DT is the equivalent of hellions or something but if that's your argument, your wrong. Your comparing a cheap and low-investment anti-light unit(workers happen to be light) to an expensive high-investment cloaked unit that you basically suicide in order to trade for workers. edit for clarification Again, from the start: A protoss whined he couldn't kill workers with units. I propsed DT's as harassive and defensive powerhouses that could do that very thing (Hiya Huk Vs. Nada! How's it going? What's that? DT's raped defensively and harassively?). Suddenly, I am now forced to prove my understanding of the game valuating a DT against a blue flame hellion because nerds are nerds and apparently I make fun of one Brotoss who says something terribly stupid, and I make fun of them all.
Aww NM :D
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4gating wont work in PVP anymore because of the reduced vision up ramps. You can't place pylons next to the ramp, and warp in zealots at the top of the ramp despite being forcefielded anymore. That's really all you needed to fix PvP, forcefields are enough as long as the aggressive 4gater cant warp in zealots despite being forcefielded
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best addition is that they fixed drone melee attacks being dodge-able
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On August 26 2011 09:22 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:59 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 07:50 Dommk wrote:On August 26 2011 07:43 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 07:35 Dommk wrote:Cast 2 storms on a group of 21 hold position zealots (In shockinlyg perfect formation for this situation) and you kill 21 zealots for 150 energy over 8 seconds.
Cast 2 Seeker Missles on 21 hold position zealots (also, in startlingly tight and perfect formation) and you kill 5 (And leave 8 undamaged) for 250 energy (and in about 1 second unless you cast right over top the unit, which means friendly fire will nuke a Raven)
How did you work this out 0o? I can't find the damage calculations for Seeker as the unit is further away from the centre of the explosion. And by 8 Zealots being undamaged, you mean they only took shield damage correct? But now lets make a comparison, 2 Storms on a group of Zealots running away and you won't scratch them, 2 Seekers on a group of Zealots running away and you still have the same result. 8 seconds is a really LONG time That came from a day when I 2xHSM'ed an attacking Zealot army that was mobile and did around 400 damage, then decided to go to Yee olde Unite Testere (With Extra E's!) And test just how much damage HSM did. It wasn't pretty. Actually, going off memory, I think I couldn't hit 2 zealots with the storms, so only 19 died. My apologies on that. I actually mean that it didn't do any damage at all. Baneling explosion without fall off has a larger damage range than HSM even at it's 25 damage range. Also, you're wrong. 2 Storms on a group of zealots running away and you'll do maybe 40 shield damage to all of them (Kinda similar to what 2 Emps would do). 2 HSM's on a group of zealots running away and you'll do 0 damage because HSM needs to be cast only when someone isn't paying attention or is moving towards you (And because of friendly fire, is very dangerous to cast a HSM on a 150 hp zealot charging towards 6 55 hp marines. It's pretty awkward to need to kite your own spell) I don't understand how it can do 0 damage when the Spell has a 33% greater AOE than Psi-Storm. If Psi-Storm can hit 19 Zealots, then Seeker should be able to hit 25 Seeker Missile is almost 0.25 Speed faster than a Chargelot (0.75 faster than a regular one). If you Seeker Missile a Zealot in the middle of the pack, there is almost no chance it can be micro'd away. But for all intensive purposes, if it can be hit by Storm then it can be hit by Seeker Missile. But different Spells are different. Psi-Storm can only ever do 20DPS per 1.5radious AOE. Multiple Seekers on the other hand can be chained, which makes the spell significantly stronger when the Raven number increases So... let's see here. I cast a missile that is 9 distance away from an already retreating zealot, moving .75 speed faster. You're saying that in 12 seconds, the zealots cannot be scattered. I'm worried about your opinion of protoss players. Again, if they are charging or not retreating, different story, but this is your example. (IF they have charge, if they are retreating, they can't even be hit if durable materials DOUBLED the length because the missile craps out) For the damage range, I have no idea why. I did the test in a unit tester. Maybe the map maker modified the HSM in that case, but storm was more effective than HSM period for less energy. Even 1 cast. You're free to clump up high HP units (And low HP units) and give it your own test. You may come back and say "Fuzzy, you screwed up, clearly you did it wrong" or "Huh. That's stupid". Either or, but please do try it since your other explanations have worried me. Oh cool, so you start talking shots at me as well. Guess I see where this is going. First part is obviously wrong, which is worrying when a Terran player doesn't even know the cast range of their own spells nor the mechanics... Second part, it makes no sense what so ever that in YOUR example there were MORE Zealots that took NO damage from HS than with Psi Storm. Hunter Seeker has a _33%_ greater AOE. So all it means is your tests were incredibly faulty when something basic as a spell with greater AOE hitting less units standing still than a Spell with smaller AOE. I really can't take your "Tests" very seriously at all, sorry Show nested quote +NInja Edit, like you!
Yes, Psi Storm does have the potential to hit your own zealots. Not going to even try to deny that. But being a cheap, instant cast that can be produced easier than a Raven (Less Gas, less wait, 5 second summon) that does more damage over an area (You keep calling that into question, I keep telling you to test) doing friendly fire or a suicide attack is better than a detector with other useful spells suiciding because of a terrible, terrible spell. In addition, you need to march your own units into the spell. HSM can be led into your own units (Assuming amazing Micro, or amazing luck). I'm sorry, you may act like I'm being snide by disregarding your "Tests", but they ARE faulty. I mean, a spell with 1.5 AOE hits more units than a spell with 2.0 AOE. I can't understand how when something as basic as that is wrong that you wouldn't somehow think you fucked up your tests in one way or another. High Tempalrs put a 45second cooldown on warpgates. Protoss does have flexibility with warpgate units, but you just can't create whatever you want whenever you want, you have to juggle cooldowns to create a proper balanced army. A raven costs 50/50 more than a Templar, but the benefits? It provides Detection, most almost twice as fast, it can fly AND has other spells which can greatly benefit the Terran army. Obviously due to the convenience of Tech labs and such compared to Warpgates, a Protoss WILL have more Templars in their army, but there is nothing wrong with that. Different races will have different units, but at least damage wise, Seeker Missile has the same energy efficiency as a 3second Storm which is pretty goddamn good if you consider that all its damage is BURST as opposed to a 20dps AOE--you would except something that does it's damage over a longer period of time with a smaller AOE in a static location would be more efficient if a unit stands in it for the full duration. A Hunter Seeker could be lead into your army, but the only Melee unit Terran actually has is an SCV--good luck trying to lead Seeker Missile into ranged Units that move faster than it and have soo much DPS that they can almost instantly snipe whatever that unit is
Guess what I did? I tested. You are correct, and the raven does have a larger splash radius. For instance, If a group of 35 zerglings are clumped up, 22 will survive but all take damage, whereas for a storm, 16 will survive but not take any damage (Unless they, you know, run through the storm, seeing as they only lasted 2 seconds). I apologize for that inconsistancy, you are entirely correct that the range is larger. I suppose I remembered wrong. Now, try it out for yourself. Do it. (Note, clumped up means a perfect circle, not like a wave which is how zerglings/zealots will be clumped up.
So, now we've come to these conclusions:
A 3 second AOE spell that costs 75 energy will do more damage than a 125 energy spell that has a higher cost to cast it/build. It will also be more likely fatal units who don't move. A Raven can only cast a HSM and one other spell (after waiting for 125-150 energy from spawn). A templar can cast 2 storms and one feedback, then merge from more safe distances assuming he's not alone. (Generally, merging is unsafe but provides a damage soaker if combat is initiated).
As I said before, I would love to Ape someone who's using HSM's well, but their cost to potential ratio is extremely sad.
Just a random note: That sudden burst of speed is at very close range. Like, 1. You're given 6 in game seconds if you're running to do some form of reaction, which is far more than you get from a storm (You instantly react, or take 50-100% damage). You argue in a strange fashion how good HSM is by pointing out how weak it is.
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PTR is live folks time to put this stuf finto practice.
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Russian Federation899 Posts
this patch will hurt meching terran vs protoss a tone D:
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EPT
