On February 10 2014 21:05 labbe wrote: Have you guys thought about buffing SCV hp a little bit? I mean, since this game is closer to brood war than sc2 - and SCVs in brood war have 60(!)hp, wouldn't it make sense at least to give the Starbow SCV 50, 55 hp or something. It would certaintly help agains muta harrass / ling runbys.
That would pose a big problem, for terrans to abuse pulling SCVs for all-ins/bunker rushes.
At 45 HP, SCVs are still capable of dealing with 6pools and with call down SCV, losing some to muta harass isn't as critical.
I remember hearing Beastyqt testing out CC first against 6pool and with 45 HP SCVs you can hold it off.
On February 10 2014 21:05 labbe wrote: Have you guys thought about buffing SCV hp a little bit? I mean, since this game is closer to brood war than sc2 - and SCVs in brood war have 60(!)hp, wouldn't it make sense at least to give the Starbow SCV 50, 55 hp or something. It would certaintly help agains muta harrass / ling runbys.
That would pose a big problem, for terrans to abuse pulling SCVs for all-ins/bunker rushes.
At 45 HP, SCVs are still capable of dealing with 6pools and with call down SCV, losing some to muta harass isn't as critical.
I remember hearing Beastyqt testing out CC first against 6pool and with 45 HP SCVs you can hold it off.
I don't think pulling SCV's is nearly as viable in Starbow as it is in SC2. However, it was just a thought, since it's different from BW in that respect.
The new Spider mine is a buff for Terran, and will enable Vultures to be more offensive when they plant mines vs Dragoons and other slow-shooting units. The cooldown is kept to represent the time Vultures "fizzled out" while planting a mine in BW. Maybe will a better solution come in the future. As we have mentioned earlier, Vultures are one of the units who benefit most from the SC2 engine, compared to BW. The range reduction intends to balance out the strength of the new mines.
The new Spider mine is a buff for Terran, and will enable Vultures to be more offensive when they plant mines vs Dragoons and other slow-shooting units. The cooldown is kept to represent the time Vultures "fizzled out" while planting a mine in BW. Maybe will a better solution come in the future. As we have mentioned earlier, Vultures are one of the units who benefit most from the SC2 engine, compared to BW. The range reduction intends to balance out the strength of the new mines.
Widowmine Would it be cool with a widowmine in starbow? The positive thing here is) 0) Imo, i think its cool with bio + widowmines play. I like that unit composition 1) It will encourage terran to be able to be agressive in tvz(?), i guess so atleast. 2) Can attack units through darkswarm(if its a spell type). Will be an tension between lurkers and widowmines: They look at eachother, look for a good opportunity to attack etc..
3) Since tanks, is effective the more you have it and therefore kinda hard to "utilise" in tvz until late midgame/lategame. Widowmine here, helps in that regard. 4) In broodwar: If zerg went macro mode early(delaying tech etc). It was hard for terran to move out and not be crushed, instead terran camped to big armee and moved out.
Not as strong as in sc2 hots. Maybe not even one-shot things like mutas, or lings etc.
Range 5: So lurkers can outrange them(they get advantage) Damage: This one is harder. Needs more thought. But just to get it going: 40explosive damage. Or maybe even 120Primary dmg and then 40explosive dmg in splash. So it will one-shot lings,mutas with their primaryand still deal good dmg versus guardians,ultralisks. Still deal well with darkswarm(still low range but can still do dmg) if its a spell type.
And their aoe will not kill lings.
Some negative things with a widowmine: 1) If it becomes a great unit for mechplay, imo this would not be good. For this to work i guess zerg and toss needs something in particular against mech(robo unit for toss. Good ground unit for zerg) Not talking hardcounter unit btw, so dont think that. All in all, to much work for a single widowmine if this becomes a problem(since there are very few unit models in the editor, kinda hard to make new units)
(Widowmine is another bomb. Terran have: Spidermines, and reapers bombs. Bombs in general fit terran imo. And it still behave a bit different, maybe its to much tho idk)
Just some loose thoughts on my part. Maybe a dicussion can bring something good in here
Banelings Some thoughts why they are so hard to deal with in starbow: Correct me if u feel iam wrong etc + Show Spoiler +
They have the same cost as one lurker.
Imagine if zerg send 10lings+1lurker against marines. 1) Now terran can targetfire the lurker, and then deal with zerglings. 2) terran just dodge the lurker and while he have dodged it he is now free to stand still and do damage.
Same scenario, but instead of 1lurker, he send 5banelings. 1) Terran will need to targetfire it 5times instead of 1(which is 5times as hard, maybe more since baneling is even smaller than a lurker). 2) If he wanna dodge the banelings, he will need to dodge it all the time till the threat is removed(dead). Therefore, terran cant rly stand still and do dmg like he do vs lurker play.
--- Other problems with the baneling: Irradiate is not good vs banelings. And against lurkers irradiate is great. So SV play lose value here(Alot imo).
Tanks: Not fully tested here but i feel they are kind of weak against it. Tanks doesnt supplement bio here good, so therefore it slows terran down alot and doesnt function very well either in direct fights(early,midgame) Now i havent tried MASSTANKS against it yet, but i am guessing tanks will be good in that area but thats late midgame/lategame and zerg already have hive and shit(And if terran commits to tanks early, he have not many SVs)
So i have tried vultures, and i feel they are kinda good here but the problem is terran are not meant to do techswitches(they are not designed that way rly), so its very hard to keep up with zerg since he is designed as a techswitcher: 1) You scout the banelingnest, you see baneling morphed. Thats good and all, but zerg doesnt have to commit to the banes at all. He can techswitch to lurkers whenever he want because zerg goes melee upgrades anyway(usually). So there isnt 100% reliable if terran scouts it.
2) As terran, you still wanna scout since there are more strategies zerg can do: In general if terran wanna be agressive against banelings/lings, he need his scan upgrade pretty fast. And if he scouts/reads zergs strategy-> He will delay his tech, add in way more baracks and go agressive mode. Even add in vults as soon as he plants his fac(if he want to, its kind of good)
But this way: Since zerg doesnt have to commit to banes etc. He can add lurkers. Ultras(Since he tech to hive pretty fast even with mapcontrol) And still the threat of guardians since terr doesnt wanna add many SVs against banes
Are there viable terran defensive strategies out there against banelings? Yes, probably. Are mechswitch good against it? Yes, it is most likely (if tank get fixed vs darkswarm,and bw mine got added today)
But i dont like if terran is forced to these things.
Yeah, almost forget. If this works, baneling can most likely stay(But needs testing ofcourse, so needs time). Maybe even do a cool ability for baneling(which i would personally like but i know its kinda un-ínutitive)
I still feel zerg can do this, even after the firebat buff and stim buildtime buff.
Therefore, i think a widowmine can be good here(if its tweaked right and doesnt BUFF mech to much). But maybe its a dreamscenario that cant be made to work. Please discuss if u have anything u wanna say.
Some more edits about the WM: It doesnt have to be stealthed 100%, can be visible after it have fired its shot till his cooldown is back. So no need for detection against it for enemy.(Even have it visible on minimap even when its stealthed)
Also, his attack can be none-cooldown, and therefore make his dmg very low but very like once every 1sec, 2sec or 3sec. Maybe even longer. But there are many things to do here.
So lets say he shoots every 2sec. Now he function a bit like the firebat against zerglings. But its a "static" when burrowed and if it doesnt require detection, its some "fancy" micro here for lings.
Just some other loose thoughts to get things going. (There are tons of possibilities to do)
On February 11 2014 12:16 Foxxan wrote: Widowmine Would it be cool with a widowmine in starbow? The positive thing here is) 1) It will encourage terran to be able to be agressive(?), i guess so atleast. 2) Can attack units through darkswarm(if its a spell type). Will be an tension between lurkers and widowmines: They look at eachother, look for a good opportunity to attack etc..
3) Since tanks, is effective the more you have it and therefore kinda hard to "utilise" in tvz until late midgame/lategame. Widowmine here, helps in that regard.
Just some things on top of my head. Not as strong as in sc2 hots. Maybe not even one-shot things like mutas, or lings etc.
Range 5: So lurkers can outrange them(they get advantage) Damage: This one is harder. Needs more thought. But just to get it going: 40explosive damage. Or maybe even 120Primary dmg and then 40explosive dmg in splash. So it will one-shot lings,mutas and deal good dmg versus guardians,ultralisks. Still deal well with darkswarm(if terr micro them and such). And if it will be considdered a spell(Which i think is better if it is)
And their aoe will not kill lings. Now, what i would dislike is if this unit is just Good as hell in tvp since if terran gets a new unit in mech vs toss(or mech vs zerg to btw). What about toss, and zerg.... (Redesign roach is something for zerg, but its probably to much)
(Widowmine is another bomb. Terran have: Spidermines, and reapers bombs. Bombs in general fit terran imo. And it still behave a bit different, maybe its to much tho idk)
Just some loose thoughts on my part. Maybe a dicussion can bring something good in here
I really just don't like the design of the Widow Mine.
Its also not really a mine, and the name doesn't make a lot of sense, its probably derived from "Widow Maker", but Widow Mine makes no sense, it has no characteristics of a Widow, nor does Widow refer to the function.
e.g Proximity Mine. Implies that the mine explodes in proximity. Spider Mine. Behaves like a spider Widow Mine. It... what?
I'm guess that it wanted to imply that it causes men to die, thus resulting in a Widow. Then Widow Maker would probably be a more suitable name and is a term that was used in WWII for the Corsair.
Name rant aside, there's nothing about it that I really think is necessary in SC2. Its basically a smaller siege-tank that becomes invisible when "sieged".
On February 11 2014 12:16 Foxxan wrote: Widowmine Would it be cool with a widowmine in starbow? The positive thing here is) 1) It will encourage terran to be able to be agressive(?), i guess so atleast. 2) Can attack units through darkswarm(if its a spell type). Will be an tension between lurkers and widowmines: They look at eachother, look for a good opportunity to attack etc..
3) Since tanks, is effective the more you have it and therefore kinda hard to "utilise" in tvz until late midgame/lategame. Widowmine here, helps in that regard.
Just some things on top of my head. Not as strong as in sc2 hots. Maybe not even one-shot things like mutas, or lings etc.
Range 5: So lurkers can outrange them(they get advantage) Damage: This one is harder. Needs more thought. But just to get it going: 40explosive damage. Or maybe even 120Primary dmg and then 40explosive dmg in splash. So it will one-shot lings,mutas and deal good dmg versus guardians,ultralisks. Still deal well with darkswarm(if terr micro them and such). And if it will be considdered a spell(Which i think is better if it is)
And their aoe will not kill lings. Now, what i would dislike is if this unit is just Good as hell in tvp since if terran gets a new unit in mech vs toss(or mech vs zerg to btw). What about toss, and zerg.... (Redesign roach is something for zerg, but its probably to much)
(Widowmine is another bomb. Terran have: Spidermines, and reapers bombs. Bombs in general fit terran imo. And it still behave a bit different, maybe its to much tho idk)
Just some loose thoughts on my part. Maybe a dicussion can bring something good in here
I really just don't like the design of the Widow Mine.
Its also not really a mine, and the name doesn't make a lot of sense, its probably derived from "Widow Maker", but Widow Mine makes no sense, it has no characteristics of a Widow, nor does Widow refer to the function.
e.g Proximity Mine. Implies that the mine explodes in proximity. Spider Mine. Behaves like a spider Widow Mine. It... what?
I'm guess that it wanted to imply that it causes men to die, thus resulting in a Widow. Then Widow Maker would probably be a more suitable name and is a term that was used in WWII for the Corsair.
Name rant aside, there's nothing about it that I really think is necessary in SC2. Its basically a smaller siege-tank that becomes invisible when "sieged".
just a thought.
The mines in Starcraft 1 are called Spider Mines, the new bigger mines in Starcraft 2 are called Widow Mines probably in reference to the Black Widow Spider.
Thus Widow Mines are more deadly Spider Mines.
Which is accurate if you look at what Widow Mines and Spider Mines do on a 1 to 1 comparison.
Name rant aside, there's nothing about it that I really think is necessary in SC2. Its basically a smaller siege-tank that becomes invisible when "sieged".
Everything I hate about the Widow Mine, summed in one nice post.
The Widow Mine is simply a replacement for the Siege Tank. That all it is. Terran builds them to kill Banelings, because they do it just as well as Siege Tanks and can hit air units. Too bad Siege Tanks take more skill to use, are more predictable, and are just plain more fun to watch.
On February 11 2014 14:10 IntoTheheart wrote: I'm gonna play this instead of other games, I think. I liked the original BW.
What's the playerbase for this like? :O
I don't think it's too hard to find a game right now, but when the official ladder comes out (hopefully soon) it will be much, much easier. There's a lot of people waiting for that
Great job on finally getting the BW mine to work. Out of curiosity, what was wrong with the SB mine? From what I saw, Terrans were starting to really utilize the micro tricks and getting some results. I kind of dug it.
Sorry if this has already been asked/explained. ^^
On February 11 2014 12:16 Foxxan wrote: Widowmine Would it be cool with a widowmine in starbow? The positive thing here is) 1) It will encourage terran to be able to be agressive(?), i guess so atleast. 2) Can attack units through darkswarm(if its a spell type). Will be an tension between lurkers and widowmines: They look at eachother, look for a good opportunity to attack etc..
3) Since tanks, is effective the more you have it and therefore kinda hard to "utilise" in tvz until late midgame/lategame. Widowmine here, helps in that regard.
Just some things on top of my head. Not as strong as in sc2 hots. Maybe not even one-shot things like mutas, or lings etc.
Range 5: So lurkers can outrange them(they get advantage) Damage: This one is harder. Needs more thought. But just to get it going: 40explosive damage. Or maybe even 120Primary dmg and then 40explosive dmg in splash. So it will one-shot lings,mutas and deal good dmg versus guardians,ultralisks. Still deal well with darkswarm(if terr micro them and such). And if it will be considdered a spell(Which i think is better if it is)
And their aoe will not kill lings. Now, what i would dislike is if this unit is just Good as hell in tvp since if terran gets a new unit in mech vs toss(or mech vs zerg to btw). What about toss, and zerg.... (Redesign roach is something for zerg, but its probably to much)
(Widowmine is another bomb. Terran have: Spidermines, and reapers bombs. Bombs in general fit terran imo. And it still behave a bit different, maybe its to much tho idk)
Just some loose thoughts on my part. Maybe a dicussion can bring something good in here
I really just don't like the design of the Widow Mine.
Its also not really a mine, and the name doesn't make a lot of sense, its probably derived from "Widow Maker", but Widow Mine makes no sense, it has no characteristics of a Widow, nor does Widow refer to the function.
e.g Proximity Mine. Implies that the mine explodes in proximity. Spider Mine. Behaves like a spider Widow Mine. It... what?
I'm guess that it wanted to imply that it causes men to die, thus resulting in a Widow. Then Widow Maker would probably be a more suitable name and is a term that was used in WWII for the Corsair.
Name rant aside, there's nothing about it that I really think is necessary in SC2. Its basically a smaller siege-tank that becomes invisible when "sieged".
just a thought.
The mines in Starcraft 1 are called Spider Mines, the new bigger mines in Starcraft 2 are called Widow Mines probably in reference to the Black Widow Spider.
Thus Widow Mines are more deadly Spider Mines.
Which is accurate if you look at what Widow Mines and Spider Mines do on a 1 to 1 comparison.
EPT
