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On January 11 2012 03:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:45 wei2coolman wrote:On January 11 2012 03:43 Requizen wrote:On January 11 2012 03:20 57 Corvette wrote:About a week ago I posted on Reddit asking for people's top ban picks. After about 200 replies, I took the preferred bans from the main posts (none of the reply posts), tallied them up and graphed them. Unsurprisingly, the most banned champion is.. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EQ8BS.png) Not surprising to me either. The top 4 are either champs that require map awareness to counter (Shaco and Rammus), or are banned at a high level, so most people ban them because the pros do (Morg and Kass). Imo I think people ban morgana and kass because they don't know how to lane against them as an AP mid. I think it's more the fact that people don't know how to deal with their ganks. Morg can push a lane well, and then roam around, and her ult is strong. Kassadin is very mobile and his ganks are difficult to survive. Kassadin suffers from pushing his lane hard early on, and I think Morgana is entirely overrated. But that's coming from a Cass main.
I ban morg and kass because people at my elo don't know how to counterpick, and there are picks that lose hard to both of them in lane.
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On January 11 2012 03:52 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:49 Sandster wrote:
Interesting builds from CLG EU:
Riven: Wriggle, Brut, GA, Thornmail
Vayne: Wriggle (to deal with Cait), BC, QSS (for Skarner/LB), PD, Phage
Even if the general team comps are similar, the EU vs NA playstyles and item builds are pretty different and definitely interesting to watch. The only unusual items i don't see used often on NA streams are thornmail for riven and phage for vayne. Though i saw vaynes that got triforce as 6. item. Wicked is probably the only person i saw building thornmail (pretty sure he got it on lee sin in one of the last tourneys as well)
BC was standard on Vayne months ago but not anymore; they get either BT or IE depending on the lane. Very few NA AD's will go Wriggles now, preferring double doran + vamp scep then building their BF item.
And you will almost never see a NA Riven that doesn't build BF sword, although not as many people play her.
Also, Nocturne's tend to prefer Warmog or Aegis over Frozen Mallet (although I really like the mallet).
NA teams tend to build towards "ideal" late game items, but if you look at CLG EU's item setup it's designed to dominate the mid/early-late game and simply end the game there. Probably has to do with NA teams solo queuing so much that they're not used to games ending when items like BC and frozen mallet (pre atma, vs warmog+atma) are at peak power.
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The reason that new jungle has more oddly timed ganks is because the champions who DONT suck in jungle now (skarner, shyvana, udyr, Lee Sin, Maokai, noct) either have shitty ganks pre 6 and it doesnt really matter when they gank, or they can just gank whenever they want because they get their gank spell at level 2.
All the jungle change really did was cement the way people were already moving- towards level 2 ganks and other timings that werent level 4 full clear and back. The blue pull change really started it, and then the new offensive and defensive masteries fully allowed the change (whatever smash may feel about the new masteries, as a jungle I love the changes).
So realistically riot is just getting the benefit of a coincidence. How you jungled was already changing and evolving. Riot nerfed jungle (it was a nerf, dont let anyone tell you differently) but because they did it at the same time that people were evolving as jungles, it makes them seem as though they changed things to make them more interesting.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On January 11 2012 03:56 Craton wrote:
Morg is hugely overrated.
nah man if your good with her she wins games really easily. flash ulti with hourglass 5 man stun is broken whether you want to admit it or not
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On January 11 2012 03:40 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:30 Mogwai wrote:On January 11 2012 03:06 Treadmill wrote:On January 11 2012 02:59 wei2coolman wrote:
Did anyone notice that after the jungle changes that the frequency of ganks have actually gone up?
I remember a few weeks back, everyone was ridiculing how the new jungle was going to be a farm fest, (I even said this myself). Damn was I wrong. I'm gonna be impressed how all the "riot are morons who are ruining their own game" crowd are gonna contort themselves to neither admit they were wrong nor give riot any credit. I'm not going to admit that I was wrong or give riot any credit because the game is so much worse now than it was 3 months ago that it's not even fucking funny. new masteries and new jungle were both huge net changes for the worse. so sure, the jungle changes ended up not playing out how some of us expected them to, but that doesn't mean I enjoy getting camped top lane for the first 5 minutes of the game with essentially no consequence. Sorry, I don't want to start a fight here but I'm genuinely confused. When all the changes came through I though the main complaint people had was passivity, especially in the early game. And riot acknowledged that and said their changes were aimed at resolving that. And the response of the community was that the changes would just make the game more passive not less (and thes complaints accomanied by much bitching and name-calling directed at riot). Only that turns out to be wrong and the game is less passive. You seem (to me) to be complaining that you can't just passively free-farm like you could before - but I though that was exactly what the changes were supposed to do. MAYBE you could turn around and say "hey the GOAL of the changes is bad" but isn't that the fault of the community for bitching at riot about a problem that wasn't really a problem?
I'm complaining that I can't play an aggressive laner top because I will just get camped. You know what the net impact on my character selection is due to the new changes? no more pantheon top, no more jarman top. now I only pick assholes who have absurd sustain or can play completely passively in lane and still manage to succeed. I'm not even trying to play 1v1 matchups anymore because you'll get burnt for that more often than not. It's more worthwhile to only make plays with your jungler now because chances are the opposing jungler is camping you too, because seriously, what the fuck else is he going to do?
Look, they saw a passivity problem and they approached it the wrong way. Here are the real passivity problems:
1. High sustain and/or high difficulty gank targets @ top lane who scale well with farm into late game (Yorrick, Nidalee, Trynd, Riven, GP)
2. Blue buff on APs who can clear creep waves quickly (zzzzz, instafarming every wave in the shortest lane, so exciting...)
3. No way to gank bot lane vs. a good support
FFS, the part of the game that needed the least work in terms of active play was the jungle, and it's where they put all their effort. Before the change, golems -> level 2 gank a lane was a viable and popular strategy. Early ganks were all over the place and they were strong, but back then they had an oppurtunity cost in terms of how they set you back compared to someone who was actually farming the jungle and possibly counterjungling your jungle. Fast 6 routes and early dragon threats were legitimate threats from a jungler who chose not to do early gank, it introduced an interesting gameplay decision, but now if you don't gank early and often, you're still lucky to get a level on someone who doesn't even succeed with their jungle ganks and even without kills, the level of lane presence they provide to their lanes while you farm the jungle will typically at worse break even in terms of the free cs they give their team vs. the cs you get from jungling.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On January 11 2012 03:29 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:18 Brees wrote:
the jungle changes are really bad imo, I feel like im playing support now so I pretty much refuse to jungle anymore unless I get something ridic like skarner/rammus.
the farm you get is so little all they did was change it from 1 hurpdurp 0 cs position to 2 hurpdurp 0 cs positions. All the popular junglers now are the ones you get philo/hog and spam ganks afterwards except lee sin, but i find him really weak right now in the jungle so thats another story.
Jungling went from my favorite role to my 2nd least favorite role, if that isnt a testament to how shitty the changes were i dont know what is. You don't like spam ganking? I think jungle is pretty much the old school roaming meta, except w/ buffs. tbh they need to tweak a lot of champions for jungling. Pretty much for me it's been, skarner, lee sin, or shaco jungle the entire time. with the occasional trolling jungle singed. they need to either buff other junglers or nerf those 3 that I mentioned.
nope I liked the choice of being able to gank a lot or farm jungle all day so if your opponent was ganking a lot you could get way ahead in farm if you were smart by counterjungling him when he goes to gank. Now its just gank a lot or lose in the jungle, which isnt always possible if you have durp solos pushing. Now its just pray your solos are good when you are jungling instead of I can gank for my good teammates or try to carry bad ones by farming.
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On January 11 2012 04:08 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:29 wei2coolman wrote:On January 11 2012 03:18 Brees wrote:
the jungle changes are really bad imo, I feel like im playing support now so I pretty much refuse to jungle anymore unless I get something ridic like skarner/rammus.
the farm you get is so little all they did was change it from 1 hurpdurp 0 cs position to 2 hurpdurp 0 cs positions. All the popular junglers now are the ones you get philo/hog and spam ganks afterwards except lee sin, but i find him really weak right now in the jungle so thats another story.
Jungling went from my favorite role to my 2nd least favorite role, if that isnt a testament to how shitty the changes were i dont know what is. You don't like spam ganking? I think jungle is pretty much the old school roaming meta, except w/ buffs. tbh they need to tweak a lot of champions for jungling. Pretty much for me it's been, skarner, lee sin, or shaco jungle the entire time. with the occasional trolling jungle singed. they need to either buff other junglers or nerf those 3 that I mentioned. nope I liked the choice of being able to gank a lot or farm jungle all day so if your opponent was ganking a lot you could get way ahead in farm if you were smart by counterjungling him when he goes to gank. Now its just gank a lot or lose in the jungle, which isnt always possible if you have durp solos pushing. Now its just pray your solos are good when you are jungling instead of I can gank for my good teammates or try to carry bad ones by farming.
brees and i are on exactly the same page.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 11 2012 03:59 Two_DoWn wrote:
So realistically riot is just getting the benefit of a coincidence. How you jungled was already changing and evolving. Riot nerfed jungle (it was a nerf, dont let anyone tell you differently) but because they did it at the same time that people were evolving as jungles, it makes them seem as though they changed things to make them more interesting.
I don't even think they TRIED to tell anyone differently. IIRC Morello and Guinsoo just came out and said it was a nerf all along.
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Hey guys,
Apologies in advance for long post.
Got to level 30 yesterday and I'm wondering which characters I should try to focus on for ranked play.
I have no intentions to become a pro, but I enjoy playing with a good team and good opponents, and I enjoy pushing myself and improving (as much as I have time for). I greatly prefer draft over blind, and I'd like to start playing ranked.
My problem is: I enjoy trying a variety of champs, and I haven't stuck to any for very long, so far. (If I have any most-played ones, it'd be Lee Sin and Karma.)
Can you guys give me any tips on whether the following are decent choices to stick to when starting to play ranked games?
The two questions I need help with:
- Are these champs decent enough (at low skill level) to make them viable picks?
- Is this selection of champs well-rounded enough for draft games, or am I missing any important role?
Characters I was thinking of sticking to for now:
AP: Cassiopeia, Fiddlesticks, maybe also Ezrael (yes, AP, not AD)
AD, off-tank: Dr. Mundo, Lee Sin
Jungler: Lee Sin, Nocturne
Support: Karma
I have a bunch of other characters unlocked, so I can swap choices.
I was also thinking of trying Urgot/Talon/Akali because they look like I'd enjoy playing them; Urgot also because I don't have a lot of strong late-game carries. (I have Vayne and usually do well, just find her boring to play.)
Any comments appreciated!
Also, what should the first pick in draft pick usually be? The carry? Does it matter?
Does strategic counter-picking matter at low ELOs and in placement, or should I just try to pick whatever I am best at and what works well with our team?
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On January 11 2012 04:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:59 Two_DoWn wrote:
So realistically riot is just getting the benefit of a coincidence. How you jungled was already changing and evolving. Riot nerfed jungle (it was a nerf, dont let anyone tell you differently) but because they did it at the same time that people were evolving as jungles, it makes them seem as though they changed things to make them more interesting. I don't even think they TRIED to tell anyone differently. IIRC Morello and Guinsoo just came out and said it was a nerf all along.
Classick: day of jungle change release in an in game message to SV:
"We thought the changes would be a buff"
So ya.
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On January 11 2012 04:07 Mogwai wrote:
FFS, the part of the game that needed the least work in terms of active play was the jungle, and it's where they put all their effort. Before the change, golems -> level 2 gank a lane was a viable and popular strategy. Early ganks were all over the place and they were strong, but back then they had an oppurtunity cost in terms of how they set you back compared to someone who was actually farming the jungle and possibly counterjungling your jungle. Fast 6 routes and early dragon threats were legitimate threats from a jungler who chose not to do early gank, it introduced an interesting gameplay decision, but now if you don't gank early and often, you're still lucky to get a level on someone who doesn't even succeed with their jungle ganks and even without kills, the level of lane presence they provide to their lanes while you farm the jungle will typically at worse break even in terms of the free cs they give their team vs. the cs you get from jungling.
I think this is the most annoying part. If you farm your jungle (and even counterjungle) with a fast clearer, and their jungler camps a lane and gets even one kill (and then shoves lane to the tower), you're not really ahead.
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I like the early to mid control morg gives being able to 1button afk farm a whole wave giving you all the time in the world to go ganking
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On January 11 2012 03:40 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:30 Mogwai wrote:On January 11 2012 03:06 Treadmill wrote:On January 11 2012 02:59 wei2coolman wrote:
Did anyone notice that after the jungle changes that the frequency of ganks have actually gone up?
I remember a few weeks back, everyone was ridiculing how the new jungle was going to be a farm fest, (I even said this myself). Damn was I wrong. I'm gonna be impressed how all the "riot are morons who are ruining their own game" crowd are gonna contort themselves to neither admit they were wrong nor give riot any credit. I'm not going to admit that I was wrong or give riot any credit because the game is so much worse now than it was 3 months ago that it's not even fucking funny. new masteries and new jungle were both huge net changes for the worse. so sure, the jungle changes ended up not playing out how some of us expected them to, but that doesn't mean I enjoy getting camped top lane for the first 5 minutes of the game with essentially no consequence. Sorry, I don't want to start a fight here but I'm genuinely confused. When all the changes came through I though the main complaint people had was passivity, especially in the early game. And riot acknowledged that and said their changes were aimed at resolving that. And the response of the community was that the changes would just make the game more passive not less (and thes complaints accomanied by much bitching and name-calling directed at riot). Only that turns out to be wrong and the game is less passive. You seem (to me) to be complaining that you can't just passively free-farm like you could before - but I though that was exactly what the changes were supposed to do. MAYBE you could turn around and say "hey the GOAL of the changes is bad" but isn't that the fault of the community for bitching at riot about a problem that wasn't really a problem?
You're confusing two separate complaints. The pre-remake complaint about passivity was directed at laning as it was essentially impossible to play aggressively without the enemy jungler punishing you for it and lane sustain was at a peak. The post-remake complaint about passivity was directed at jungling, as the initial remake made ganking so prohibitive as to be inadvisable in all but the most absolute certain circumstances.
You're also misconstruing Mogwai's complaint. His complaint isn't that he doesn't get to passively freefarm, it's that he doesn't get to lane because the enemy jungler is camping his lane. Mogwai is actually a very aggressive laner.
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On January 11 2012 04:12 bmn wrote:
Hey guys,
Apologies in advance for long post.
Got to level 30 yesterday and I'm wondering which characters I should try to focus on for ranked play.
I have no intentions to become a pro, but I enjoy playing with a good team and good opponents, and I enjoy pushing myself and improving (as much as I have time for). I greatly prefer draft over blind, and I'd like to start playing ranked.
My problem is: I enjoy trying a variety of champs, and I haven't stuck to any for very long, so far. (If I have any most-played ones, it'd be Lee Sin and Karma.)
Can you guys give me any tips on whether the following are decent choices to stick to when starting to play ranked games?
The two questions I need help with:
- Are these champs decent enough (at low skill level) to make them viable picks?
- Is this selection of champs well-rounded enough for draft games, or am I missing any important role?
Characters I was thinking of sticking to for now:
AP: Cassiopeia, Fiddlesticks, maybe also Ezrael (yes, AP, not AD)
AD, off-tank: Dr. Mundo, Lee Sin
Jungler: Lee Sin, Nocturne
Support: Karma
I have a bunch of other characters unlocked, so I can swap choices.
I was also thinking of trying Urgot/Talon/Akali because they look like I'd enjoy playing them; Urgot also because I don't have a lot of strong late-game carries. (I have Vayne and usually do well, just find her boring to play.)
Any comments appreciated!
Also, what should the first pick in draft pick usually be? The carry? Does it matter?
Does strategic counter-picking matter at low ELOs and in placement, or should I just try to pick whatever I am best at and what works well with our team?
Cassiopeia is a solid AP. Fiddlesticks as an AP solo is pretty iffy; he has terrible laning until he gets a good amount of levels at which point he becomes a monster 1v1. Getting to that point against good players will be extremely hard, but at lower levels it works just fine. AP Ezrael is a waste. Mundo is bad. Lee sin is good in lane; he's still okay in jungle but because of changes you gotta get lots of good ganks off or you will fall behind very hard. Nocturne is a great jungler. Karma is not a support; if you want to play Karma play her AP mid. She has terrible base values and supports need somewhat high base values. A good support to pick up would be from the following: Soraka, Sona, Janna, Leona, Nunu, Alistar, Taric.
Talon/Akali are fun, but have a decently high skill cap. If you want a strong late-game carry, Urgot's not the best choice. He's a lane dominator that's also really strong mid-game. Urgot falls off late game compared to other AD carries. The strongest late-game AD carries are probably Vayne, Tristana, Kog'maw (but he fell out of favor).
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On January 11 2012 04:07 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:40 Treadmill wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 Mogwai wrote:On January 11 2012 03:06 Treadmill wrote:On January 11 2012 02:59 wei2coolman wrote:
Did anyone notice that after the jungle changes that the frequency of ganks have actually gone up?
I remember a few weeks back, everyone was ridiculing how the new jungle was going to be a farm fest, (I even said this myself). Damn was I wrong. I'm gonna be impressed how all the "riot are morons who are ruining their own game" crowd are gonna contort themselves to neither admit they were wrong nor give riot any credit. I'm not going to admit that I was wrong or give riot any credit because the game is so much worse now than it was 3 months ago that it's not even fucking funny. new masteries and new jungle were both huge net changes for the worse. so sure, the jungle changes ended up not playing out how some of us expected them to, but that doesn't mean I enjoy getting camped top lane for the first 5 minutes of the game with essentially no consequence. Sorry, I don't want to start a fight here but I'm genuinely confused. When all the changes came through I though the main complaint people had was passivity, especially in the early game. And riot acknowledged that and said their changes were aimed at resolving that. And the response of the community was that the changes would just make the game more passive not less (and thes complaints accomanied by much bitching and name-calling directed at riot). Only that turns out to be wrong and the game is less passive. You seem (to me) to be complaining that you can't just passively free-farm like you could before - but I though that was exactly what the changes were supposed to do. MAYBE you could turn around and say "hey the GOAL of the changes is bad" but isn't that the fault of the community for bitching at riot about a problem that wasn't really a problem? I'm complaining that I can't play an aggressive laner top because I will just get camped. You know what the net impact on my character selection is due to the new changes? no more pantheon top, no more jarman top. now I only pick assholes who have absurd sustain or can play completely passively in lane and still manage to succeed. I'm not even trying to play 1v1 matchups anymore because you'll get burnt for that more often than not. It's more worthwhile to only make plays with your jungler now because chances are the opposing jungler is camping you too, because seriously, what the fuck else is he going to do? Look, they saw a passivity problem and they approached it the wrong way. Here are the real passivity problems: 1. High sustain and/or high difficulty gank targets @ top lane who scale well with farm into late game (Yorrick, Nidalee, Trynd, Riven, GP) 2. Blue buff on APs who can clear creep waves quickly (zzzzz, instafarming every wave in the shortest lane, so exciting...) 3. No way to gank bot lane vs. a good support FFS, the part of the game that needed the least work in terms of active play was the jungle, and it's where they put all their effort. Before the change, golems -> level 2 gank a lane was a viable and popular strategy. Early ganks were all over the place and they were strong, but back then they had an oppurtunity cost in terms of how they set you back compared to someone who was actually farming the jungle and possibly counterjungling your jungle. Fast 6 routes and early dragon threats were legitimate threats from a jungler who chose not to do early gank, it introduced an interesting gameplay decision, but now if you don't gank early and often, you're still lucky to get a level on someone who doesn't even succeed with their jungle ganks and even without kills, the level of lane presence they provide to their lanes while you farm the jungle will typically at worse break even in terms of the free cs they give their team vs. the cs you get from jungling.
so you suggest what to punish people more for failing ganks? more jungle xp in general? less of it on the buff mobs? less xp but even easier / faster packs?
since its not going to go back to how it was before so even if you hate the current version asking for the old version is just wasting your own time :D
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Certain in-Game activity on your account has been found to be in violation of the Summoner’s Code by the Tribunal.
The most common cause for this warning is either harassment or disruption of gameplay (intentional feeding, etc.). Bear in mind that the definition of harassment can range from direct, overt verbal harassment, to intentionally creating an unpleasant gameplay environment.
Brees I'd like to notify you that I am disappointed in your failure to adhere to the Summoner's Code. Since you have such a clean history I will let it pass. .. jk im proud of u buddy
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
if only they banned the 20+ people that called me a filthy dumb korean
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Its only slander if its false.
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your team deserves to lose when you dont get help while enemy jungler camps lane constantly. things like this make the game much more interesting to watch and to play imo. the more active the junglers the better.
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On January 11 2012 04:12 bmn wrote:
Hey guys,
Apologies in advance for long post.
Got to level 30 yesterday and I'm wondering which characters I should try to focus on for ranked play.
I have no intentions to become a pro, but I enjoy playing with a good team and good opponents, and I enjoy pushing myself and improving (as much as I have time for). I greatly prefer draft over blind, and I'd like to start playing ranked.
My problem is: I enjoy trying a variety of champs, and I haven't stuck to any for very long, so far. (If I have any most-played ones, it'd be Lee Sin and Karma.)
Can you guys give me any tips on whether the following are decent choices to stick to when starting to play ranked games?
The two questions I need help with:
- Are these champs decent enough (at low skill level) to make them viable picks?
- Is this selection of champs well-rounded enough for draft games, or am I missing any important role?
Characters I was thinking of sticking to for now:
AP: Cassiopeia, Fiddlesticks, maybe also Ezrael (yes, AP, not AD)
AD, off-tank: Dr. Mundo, Lee Sin
Jungler: Lee Sin, Nocturne
Support: Karma
I have a bunch of other characters unlocked, so I can swap choices.
I was also thinking of trying Urgot/Talon/Akali because they look like I'd enjoy playing them; Urgot also because I don't have a lot of strong late-game carries. (I have Vayne and usually do well, just find her boring to play.)
Any comments appreciated!
Also, what should the first pick in draft pick usually be? The carry? Does it matter?
Does strategic counter-picking matter at low ELOs and in placement, or should I just try to pick whatever I am best at and what works well with our team?
Congratulations! Also, no need to apologize for a long post. Makes it easier to offer advice.
If your main goal is to win games and increase ELO (which might not be a bad strategy for your placement matches) you'll want to learn some champs considered to be Pubstompers. Tryn, Shaco, Sion, Xin, ect... and take them whenever you can. A good rule of thumb would be, whenever you see a champ that is always banned, not get banned, you want that champ on your team.
As for your specific roles:
Cass is a great AP. Fiddle can be really strong. I'd suggest you also learn Ryze. His Sustained damage is similar to Cass. You'll also want to learn a strong burst caster. I'd suggest Brand or Xerath. Knowing those champs will give you more flexibility with your picks.
AD Off Tank- Lee can be good here, but is better in jungle. While I think Mundo is viable, its just really rare to see a good Mundo so people tend to think of this as a troll pick. Try to pick up GP. He's very strong in this roll. Irelia and Nasus are great as well. And Jax. Jax is a sentimental pick for me. One of my first and favorite champs.
Jungler: No reason to not own Rammus. If you get him in a draft game, (rare, but it happens) you can completely wreck enemy teams. Udyr would be another great champ to learn. He can also be played as a strong top laner. Very viable. Lee and Nocturne are good picks as well. Both have great gank potential.
Support: Karma is not the most traditional, but is a good pick. If you like non traditional, try Blitz. However, I think this role is one where the common picks are the best. Soraka/Sona God Tier. Alistar is also very strong and a lot of fun. Headbutting fools with a huge Minotaur is very satisfying.
For ranged AD: Learn Urgot over Vayne. There are already plenty of Vaynes around. I'd also suggest Twitch. He's a lot of fun... and simply wrecks people that are unprepared.
As for counterpicking, I would say do what you are strongest at first, or what you are trying to learn. The advantage you gain by a solid counterpick probably won't outweigh the disadvantage of playing a champ you are less familiar with. When this changes, you know it is time to counterpick.
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EPT
