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On February 18 2012 02:06 jaj22 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 01:22 blae000 wrote:
Either way, to tell who is lying or not from a click in the poll isnt the best way to go.
I'm not sure you're reading this properly. After being caught out, Gumshoe has admitted to substantial dishonesty through his early posts, including one that he doublespaced for EchelonTee. If what you're looking for is liars, we have a confirmed one already. The only reason I haven't voted him is that players who make this sort of ridiculous and dishonest plan in newbie games have a nasty habit of flipping town.
I thought this was the liar game!( manga reference for the win!) I know it wasn't right to admit I lied, if i lie its better to just stick with it considering you didn't really have any proof that i didn't vote townie just your word, and i could just say I voted late by accident , the reason the told the truth is because I felt that I had to own up the big blunder I caused. I felt that by clearing it all up I could help us move on from this discussion.
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@blae000: It's about time you posted some reads. Your main post was just wishy-washy stuff on ET and Sloosh and a dismissal of Gumshoe's poll. Who's looking scummy to you so far?
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I know I said I didn't want us to get sucked into this poll nonsense but these are all quotes from gumshoe's filter....
Seriously though the purpose of the random ass poll was just to see if the mafia made one big decision or not
clarify the real purpose of the poll, i just expected everyone to vote town, than than i would vote mafia and ask which troll said they were mafia but are actually town
It was to bait fluffy responses and harsh accusations, which it did,also there was more to the poll if it actually work but that was as I said a shot in the dark
So uhh.... what's the purpose of this poll?
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Gumshoe, (and anyone else for that matter) please don't lie. Ever.
Especially in a newbie game, we can't have people lying as it destroys town's ability to find mafia.
Now, everyone has posted, so it is a matter of differentiating
who is trying to contribute vs who is just trying to look like they contribute.
On February 17 2012 17:11 Janaan wrote:
2. The bout between Sloosh and EchelonTee. I'm seeing Sloosh using a hint of WIFOM reasoning, but not enough for me to call it scummy action. I will keep my eye on him, though. As far as EchelonTee goes, I actually follow his reasoning pretty well, he does seem to be getting a bit defensive, though.
Can you clarify your stance on us? Do you think I'm suspicious?
You say you follow ET's reasoning well but it doesn't seem that you think he is town either?
What are your thoughts on us?
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On February 18 2012 02:55 Alderan wrote:I know I said I didn't want us to get sucked into this poll nonsense but these are all quotes from gumshoe's filter.... Show nested quote + Seriously though the purpose of the random ass poll was just to see if the mafia made one big decision or not Show nested quote + clarify the real purpose of the poll, i just expected everyone to vote town, than than i would vote mafia and ask which troll said they were mafia but are actually town Show nested quote +It was to bait fluffy responses and harsh accusations, which it did,also there was more to the poll if it actually work but that was as I said a shot in the dark So uhh.... what's the purpose of this poll?
All of the above in order,
if the vote turned out to be 11/4 i would just remark that the mafia is organized at the beginning of the game and surprisingly honest despite this being an anonymous vote.
if the vote turned out to be 14 town I would vote mafia and try to find someone looking for an easy way to prove thier town.
if the vote didn't work at all I would just discredit it and wait and see who tried to keep dwelling on it, who would keep talking about how ridicules it was and who would keep saying its a scum post.
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On February 18 2012 02:55 slOosh wrote:Gumshoe, (and anyone else for that matter) please don't lie. Ever.Especially in a newbie game, we can't have people lying as it destroys town's ability to find mafia. Now, everyone has posted, so it is a matter of differentiating who is trying to contribute vs who is just trying to look like they contribute. Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 17:11 Janaan wrote:
2. The bout between Sloosh and EchelonTee. I'm seeing Sloosh using a hint of WIFOM reasoning, but not enough for me to call it scummy action. I will keep my eye on him, though. As far as EchelonTee goes, I actually follow his reasoning pretty well, he does seem to be getting a bit defensive, though.
Can you clarify your stance on us? Do you think I'm suspicious? You say you follow ET's reasoning well but it doesn't seem that you think he is town either? What are your thoughts on us?
Understood ) :
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On February 18 2012 03:03 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 02:55 Alderan wrote:I know I said I didn't want us to get sucked into this poll nonsense but these are all quotes from gumshoe's filter.... Seriously though the purpose of the random ass poll was just to see if the mafia made one big decision or not clarify the real purpose of the poll, i just expected everyone to vote town, than than i would vote mafia and ask which troll said they were mafia but are actually town It was to bait fluffy responses and harsh accusations, which it did,also there was more to the poll if it actually work but that was as I said a shot in the dark So uhh.... what's the purpose of this poll? All of the above in order, if the vote turned out to be 11/4 i would just remark that the mafia is organized at the beginning of the game and surprisingly honest despite this being an anonymous vote. if the vote turned out to be 14 town I would vote mafia and try to find someone looking for an easy way to prove thier town. if the vote didn't work at all I would just discredit it and wait and see who tried to keep dwelling on it, who would keep talking about how ridicules it was and who would keep saying its a scum post.
I had no issue with the poll. What I did have an issue with is that as you gained more and more attention, and were catching more and more heat for the post, your explanation gradually changed to something that you thought we would want to hear.
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On February 18 2012 03:06 Alderan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 03:03 gumshoe wrote:On February 18 2012 02:55 Alderan wrote:I know I said I didn't want us to get sucked into this poll nonsense but these are all quotes from gumshoe's filter.... Seriously though the purpose of the random ass poll was just to see if the mafia made one big decision or not clarify the real purpose of the poll, i just expected everyone to vote town, than than i would vote mafia and ask which troll said they were mafia but are actually town It was to bait fluffy responses and harsh accusations, which it did,also there was more to the poll if it actually work but that was as I said a shot in the dark So uhh.... what's the purpose of this poll? All of the above in order, if the vote turned out to be 11/4 i would just remark that the mafia is organized at the beginning of the game and surprisingly honest despite this being an anonymous vote. if the vote turned out to be 14 town I would vote mafia and try to find someone looking for an easy way to prove thier town. if the vote didn't work at all I would just discredit it and wait and see who tried to keep dwelling on it, who would keep talking about how ridicules it was and who would keep saying its a scum post. I had no issue with the poll. What I did have an issue with is that as you gained more and more attention, and were catching more and more heat for the post, your explanation gradually changed to something that you thought we would want to hear.
All I did was reveal more of my intentions as the subject grabbed more attention. I never said what you wanted me to say I just told bits and pieces of a big risky move that I did think through but never expected to garner this much attention, eventually I revealed to you guys I lied at the start. Thats not something you want to hear, you don't want to hear that you have a loose cannon untrustworthy active town, you wanna hear that he's mafia and making a stupid attempt at disrupting discussion. I didn't admit I was lying because it was what you guys wanted to hear, I admitted it because I had started this mess and I had to try and salvage it despite the further blow it would do to my credibility.
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Im not accusing anyone of inactivity or anything just pointing out where we stand on several key issues
Lynching: This is a very important topic given the nature of the rules in this particular game, there is one plus mafia so it seems almost foolish to not lynch. That said rash decisions can only hurt us and we have extra blues so if we take a hit one day were certain to get definitive evidence the next. As it stands though I think we can only afford one no lynch f any at all.Heres where denizens stand or don't stand on the issue.
if no definite scum lynch lurkers - Ech- Steveling - Zelblade - jaj22
if no definite scum probably shouldn't lynch - DoYouHas (he mentioned if we have to we can but he seems generally opposed to the idea of carelessly lynching)- TKHawkins
no stance - Bleae- Alderaan- Manner Kiss(has not contributed one bloody thing to discussion and where over twelve hours in game, has provided no alibi, I am fully accusing this guy of inactivity, he needs to step up right now)- Trakdoor- MidnightGladius- sloosh- jannan- DimmuKlok
6 of the 15 of us have commented on lynching lurkers, 4 say yes 2 say no. The vote is fast approaching I suggest we all form an opinion in advance on wether or not we want to lynch a lurker day one. This is a good opportunity to get everyones opinion on a very much relevant topic so don't be shy.
more stances coming soon.
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Ok I did accuse Manner Kiss. Hopefully he finally comes out to play
FOS: Manner Kiss
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On February 18 2012 02:55 slOosh wrote:Gumshoe, (and anyone else for that matter) please don't lie. Ever.Especially in a newbie game, we can't have people lying as it destroys town's ability to find mafia. Now, everyone has posted, so it is a matter of differentiating who is trying to contribute vs who is just trying to look like they contribute. Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 17:11 Janaan wrote:
2. The bout between Sloosh and EchelonTee. I'm seeing Sloosh using a hint of WIFOM reasoning, but not enough for me to call it scummy action. I will keep my eye on him, though. As far as EchelonTee goes, I actually follow his reasoning pretty well, he does seem to be getting a bit defensive, though.
Can you clarify your stance on us? Do you think I'm suspicious? You say you follow ET's reasoning well but it doesn't seem that you think he is town either? What are your thoughts on us?
At this moment, I'd still call you and Echelon neutral on my radar, however, I am looking at your posts very carefully. Like I said in the post, I don't think that either of you are mafia at this point, there's not really enough to go on yet.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 18:09 DimmuKlok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 17:11 Janaan wrote:
3. Something I'm really concerned about right now is that there seems to be a few players who have posted since the game started, but only in the most fluffy of ways. Specifically, jaj22, DimmuKlok, trackd00r, MannerKiss, and to a lesser extent, Steveling and TKHawkins. I understand if they didn't have the time to do more than just check in at the start of the game, but still, for so many people to just put out one or two fairly useless posts is overall not a good pro-town atmosphere. We HAVE to find some way to get people involved and posting.
One player that concerns me right now is MannerKiss. First he gets called out to provide some decent content by DoYouHas, then he posts a single sentence acknowledging DoYouHas's post, but doesn't post any content. I'm getting slightly scummy vibes from his play right now. It's worth looking into as we go forward.
Alright, lets take a look. MannerKiss: I think it's unanimous that we would like to hear more from him. His first post was a simple one line introduction, and his second was his one line reply to DoYouHas, which was almost humorous in how suspicious it sounded. Jaj22: He was the one that initially started the conversation about lynching lurkers. I don't agree with his stance. I would rather not have a lynch than lynch a lurker on the first day. I'm not sure if his posts are much to be suspicious over, but worth keeping an eye on. Me: I don't see how someone could read my post and think it didn't have a pro-town atmosphere, but that's your opinion. Trackd00r: I found his first post to be useful and agreed with some of what he said. He never contributed again after that, but it's still pretty early. I don't see the anti-town atmosphere in his post.
I feel like I should clarify a bit where I was going with this part of my statement as well. My point was not only the content that people posted, but also, the fact that these people were online when the game started, or soon after, then at the most posted 1 or 2 times with very general statements about lynching lurkers (that was Trackd00r specifically). This is while all the talk about the poll was going on, and the beginnings of Sloosh and Echelon's talk. There was plenty that could have been said that wasn't. I know some people maybe didn't have the opportunity, but I also think there were at least a couple of those people I mentioned that could have posted. I obviously don't know which ones, though. My thing about now having a good town atmosphere is just overall, I want people to feel that they should be posting if they can, with as much content as they can, and so seeing so many people with just one post after the game started, or a couple posts without any real content, disturbed me a bit. DimmuKlok, since you're the one who commented on this specifically, lets look at your first post and see just why I didn't like it.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 15:26 DimmuKlok wrote:
Hello everyone,
I just finished reading through the thread. I would first like to echo TKHawkins first post about lurking and availability when posting. I've been checking the thread nightly to see if the game had started, and tonight it did. I would not be surprised if the majority of people who haven't posted yet are unaware that the game has started.
Now a little bit about myself... This is my first mafia game, and I'm looking forward to it. I really like gumshoe's idea with the report. I'm sure it's already common place, but I recommend everyone make their own private version of it. It's not hard, and it makes it a lot easier to keep track of everyone. I don't have much to contribute yet when it comes to suspicions. It's still too early.
So, the only comment you made was just reminding poeple of TKHawkins's statement, with no explanation of why you feel that way, or why you agree with him. Then you do mention gumshoe's idea briefly, which is good. Like I said earlier, though, I would've liked to see you comment on everything else going on too, not just a basic post to start the game.
This secion of my origial post wasn't so much about looking for suspects as calling out some people that I'd like to see more from. I don't want this town to be one that allows lurking at all.
Since it's been brought up, I wanted to weigh in on the lurker lynch/no lynch. Obviously, I'd like to be able to get a decent read on someone. If that's not possible Day 1, though, a lurker lynch is probably the way to go. If nothing else, it sends a message to lurkers that we won't tolerate their behavior, and they need to get in the game. A no lynch really doesn't help the town, since no information is gained from the voting process itself, and if we're even thinking about no-lynch, then information is what we need more than anything else anyway.
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I think it is about time we start talking about who to lynch today. With the scheduling problems mentioned by a few people, I don't think we can wait too much longer.
My current list of people I'm consdering voting for is sl0osh and MannerKiss
sl0osh, he overreacted badly to a perfectly fine way of calling him out. Everything in his exchange was just an extended version of OMGUS (attacking the person who attacked you only because he attacked you). I think it is too easy to dismiss sl0osh's failure to see the reason behind ET's actions as his standard confirmation bias. Not acknowledging that ET's initial reference to him was purely to get him talking, not to frame him as mafia. I also thought that whole post about ET's tone was just a big pot of confirmation bias.
MannerKiss, his fairly immediate response to me calling him out told me he was paying attention to the thread IE, actively lurking. The two explanations for which would be a new townie unsure of what to post, or a new scum unsure of what to post. The one-liner back at me and his lack of a response to me trying to call him out a second time make me feel it is more likely the latter.
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gumshoe, I am having a really hard time reading your intentions, because you've basically done everything that the beginner's guides warn against: lying, posting lists without much content, derailing the thread, and making unclear points. If you're going to continue doing this, it's going to make the game a huge headache for the town. I don't think that you're mafia, but please look over the guides, and try to post more productively.
On the topic of lynching or not: there is no reason not to lynch Day 1. It is the most reliable way for the town to go forward, as we can then begin looking at voting patterns and doing behavioral analysis. If we don't lynch, we're in basically the same spot during Day 2, except with one fewer innocent player.
As to who we lynch, I say that we put pressure on lurkers and threaten them with a lynch if they don't contribute. It establishes a basic precedent on the quality of content that we expect out of certain players, and then we can take their future posts and make some contrasts. The common argument against lynching a lurker is that mafia will only have to pretend to contribute, or stay just above the least active players. I say that that's fully acceptable, as both of those behaviors will be red flags in the days to come, especially if the town keeps up and stays consistent with activity levels.
With that said, I'm going to put my vote on MannerKiss. He has done nothing for us.
MannerKiss, here's your opportunity to show us that you have an interest in helping us win this game. Who is your #1 target so far?
##Vote: MannerKiss
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Gumshoe, I would like it if you would start taking stances on players. You have cluttered the thread with talk about a useless poll (and yes it IS useless, it does not matter what it could have been). The only posts that I have found useful of yours are the two on MidnightGladius. I did not need a clarification on people's stances on lynching lurkers, I have read the thread. Your early list was largely contentless and just took up space in my opinion. I want you to start talking in specifics. Taking the wide view isn't a bad thing, you just need to bring up something that doesn't look obvious when you post like that.
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On February 18 2012 02:53 jaj22 wrote:
@blae000: It's about time you posted some reads. Your main post was just wishy-washy stuff on ET and Sloosh and a dismissal of Gumshoe's poll. Who's looking scummy to you so far?
*Im reading some right now, and while looking through DoYouHas' filter he has a pretty early FOS on ET, then two post to MannerKiss where he tries to get him talking. The reason I'm reacting is;
1.The early FOS on ET, and he didnt really follow up. The reason for his FOS was that ET supporting 'policy lynching'. Now ET continues to answer to this nicely and DoYouHas doesnt response at all. So in other words, throwing out names early on without any reason, causing some chaos without helping.
2. After a post where he sort of popped in on the ET vs Sloosh drama, his next two (and last) posts are the ones to MannerKiss. Again, not really contributing, but posting so it seems he has more interest in blaming.
I agree MannerKiss hasnt really been doing much himself, and getting people talking is a good thing. Im just saying for these two reasons, DoYouHas feels suspicious to me.
*Then there is MannerKiss. Not posting at all, then popping in when he gets called out, then disappearing agian. So he is reading, but not really contributing.
*Other then that, the ET vs Sloosh thing got me aware of them both, but I dont really get scum vibes. But alot of anger very early. As I said earlier though, they were out there discussing early with everyones eyes on them. So avoiding the bandwagon may cause some agressive posts.
DoYouHas posted before I got to post this. He calles out both Sloosh and MannerKiss. As I wrote above a second ago, MannerKiss feels suspicious to me. But the sudden fingerpointing at Sloosh doesnt make to much sense to me. His posts vs ET felt a bit to much, but I dont get the scum feeling in what he writes. If anything, it feels pro-town.
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I did not pursue my FOS on ET because I was satisfied with his response. I dropped it and moved on. Applying pressure early doesn't create chaos, it creates content.
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Now for stance number two! This ones about the lovely poll!
Unlike the topic of lynching lurkers, nearly everyone( with the exception of manner kiss and a few other lurkers) has stated an opinion on this matter, heres the breakdown of where everyone stands. Fore warning I'm a lot less objective here so take my opinions as you will.
Thinks I'm the nubbiest of noobs:
Blae(not much to say, just seems like he wants to move on from the poll which isn't really what a mafia would want)
Janan (just disregarded my poll and moved on, not very suspicious behaviour)
Steveling( hasn't commented to much, posted rather jokingly in response to my poll... Almost as if he wasn't worried about the prospect of me being mafia... Steve needs to post more.)
Midnight Gladius (didn't think I was mafia, not a suprise gladius dosent seem to take many risks)
TKHawkins( hasn't said much)
Thinks I'm mafia:
Echelon Tee(aggressively claimed I was mafia, which seemed almost too risky of a move for an actual mafia)
Trackdoor(seemed more than just suspicious of me, he pointed out things that could have just as easily been said if he was openly accusing me like Ech, which leads me to believe he was trying to draw attention to me without catching as much heat as Ech, I actually trust him less than ech but I wouldn't be willing to commit to that suspicion because he hasn't really said that much yet.)
Thinks I'm a bit suspicius:
Alderan(seems pretty constructively suspicious though, no big reason to suspect him)
DoYouHas (didn't openly comment on the poll but suggested at one point to Manner that it and I were perhaps suspicion worthy, I don't see a reason to suspect him)
Sloosh( Sloosh seems to be open to all possibilities which I respect about him so far, he wont take a huge risk unless he's 80 percent sure of something or he's being threatened(read ech vs sloosh).) He's more interested in building up a useful town atmosphere than anything else it seems, several of his contributions include players filters, analysis and opinions provided for almost every topic thats come up so far, and also he made the plea that our town should be completely honest with one another( a good step away from the chaos that several confrontations have caused). If he turns out to be mafia I for one will take a sizable moral hit.
Jaj22( also wants to keep options open and doesn't rush to conclusions, but has a much darker play style than Sloosh. That said I think he's just trying to put on a lot of pressure where he think the dam might leak. 70 percent chance he's town I think)
No opinion on poll:
Zellblade (hasn't posted much and his one post felt very generically constructive, take that as you will.)
Manner kiss(still no alibi)
DimmuKlok (hasn't posted much)
HAlO VOICE: Three lurkers remaining!
Oh and as for people who though my poll was a great, helpful and constructive idea?:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So preliminary findings form all this?
5 in favour of me being a noob, 4 in favour of me being suspicious, 2 in favour of me being mafia.
other general conclusions? 12 players have spoken out about my pole meaning one of the above is mafia.
Trap door seems a bit hostile but unwilling to commit to any accusations ) :
Steve's post seems a bit off and hasn't posted much
These are all just my observations, take them with an avalanche of salt if you wish.
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Sort of EBWOP!
DoYouHas posted 2 posts while I was writing the one where I talked about him. Im not the best at english, its a little slow. Anyway. While I still feel like what I mentioned in the previous post makes sense, I start to agree with him.
The game has been going a little while now, and to start forcing some players to talk a little bit more spesific might be good. He is pretty neutral to me atm.
So to echo DoYouHas and continue my previous post:
*Gumshoe has really given me scumvibes since the poll in the beginning. Since that he has managed to take alot of our attention. All though, getting himself in a pontetial toughspot, the poll workes as quite the distraction. I would want to hear something from him NOT poll-related!
*jaj22 is town all the way in my book. Not to many posts, but forcing out information from other players. Trying to get anyone talking without causing chaos. Or providing information to the rest of us in a calm way.
So that's a couple of posts with my reads and thoughts so far. I mostly want Gumshoe and MannerKiss to give some reads and specifics.
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On February 18 2012 04:19 DoYouHas wrote:
sl0osh, he overreacted badly to a perfectly fine way of calling him out. Everything in his exchange was just an extended version of OMGUS (attacking the person who attacked you only because he attacked you). I think it is too easy to dismiss sl0osh's failure to see the reason behind ET's actions as his standard confirmation bias. Not acknowledging that ET's initial reference to him was purely to get him talking, not to frame him as mafia. I also thought that whole post about ET's tone was just a big pot of confirmation bias.
Contradiction?
How is failure to see the reason behind ET's actions scummy?
You are more logical than this. Sure you suffered a bit of confirmation bias on Simberto lynch in the prior game we played, but at least it started logical.
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On February 18 2012 04:38 MidnightGladius wrote:
gumshoe, I am having a really hard time reading your intentions, because you've basically done everything that the beginner's guides warn against: lying, posting lists without much content, derailing the thread, and making unclear points. If you're going to continue doing this, it's going to make the game a huge headache for the town. I don't think that you're mafia, but please look over the guides, and try to post more productively.
On the topic of lynching or not: there is no reason not to lynch Day 1. It is the most reliable way for the town to go forward, as we can then begin looking at voting patterns and doing behavioral analysis. If we don't lynch, we're in basically the same spot during Day 2, except with one fewer innocent player.
As to who we lynch, I say that we put pressure on lurkers and threaten them with a lynch if they don't contribute. It establishes a basic precedent on the quality of content that we expect out of certain players, and then we can take their future posts and make some contrasts. The common argument against lynching a lurker is that mafia will only have to pretend to contribute, or stay just above the least active players. I say that that's fully acceptable, as both of those behaviors will be red flags in the days to come, especially if the town keeps up and stays consistent with activity levels.
With that said, I'm going to put my vote on MannerKiss. He has done nothing for us.
MannerKiss, here's your opportunity to show us that you have an interest in helping us win this game. Who is your #1 target so far?
##Vote: MannerKiss
I agree with you Gladius, on all accounts, but my problem with all your suggestions is their so easy. Need to put pressure on someone? Look to the guy who messed up at the start of the game. Should we or shouldn't we lynch? Of course we should! It'd be foolish not too. Who do we lynch? how about the guy everyone hates and has not contributed whatsoever? As suspicious as I am of manner he could very well be just a disillusioned townie who really doesn't want to play a game in which he has no power, which is mega unlikely but still possible. As chaotic as my play is yours seems almost too by the book. You almost seem like a Damon Gant just waiting to burst out in a fit of demonic fire/lightning and ferocious claps!
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EPT
