On May 26 2011 07:38 R0YAL wrote: I think the most epic timing for TSL4 would be just before HoTS release, and by just before I mean the finals are the day before release. This would be epic because it would basically crown the king of WoL and then a new chapter opens with HoTS.
I like this idea a lot! Tho with Blizzard timmings it would be pretty much impossible for TL to time something like this perfectly...
I'll be really pissed if TSL4 takes anywhere near as long as HotS. HotS is probably two november's away, *at least*. Anyone who thinks it'll be earlier needs to read up on a company called "Blizzard".
That said, I totally agree. TSL4 has a good chance to be bigger than TSL3, and that's just mind blowing.
TSL was great and fun to watch but casting replay's will never compare to a live tournament where players are sitting in booths next to each other and so on. But still, well done and I look forward to TSL4.
The biggest thing for me would be a rebroadcast schedule at a reasonable time for people outside of America. Although I was excited about the TSL matches, the fact that they were broadcast at 3am KST meant that I couldn't watch live, and although I could in theory watch the vods, most of the time I just ended up checking the LR threads to see the results =/
I fully appreciate how epic the tournament was, but it's hard to really "feel it" unless you can watch a live or delayed broadcast. Just my two cents...
On May 26 2011 02:31 TheDougler wrote: 4. (Maybe) Heart of The Swarm will be released
I sure hope not! I don't want to wait that long!
I was once like you, about eleven years ago when a company named Blizzard announced a game called Warcraft Three and I put it on my christmas wish list...
Three years later I had developed a nervous twitch where I would scream in agony whenever somebody dared to mention the word "soon".
Lol, jk but... I wouldn't hold your breath for blizzard is all I'm saying. They make great games but they take their damn time. That being said, the last two wow expansions have been prompt and they certainly have the staff now to get things done so who knows?
I feel the same way for Guildwars 2.... That game was meant to bloody beta in the summer of 08 and come out the year after....
I wanted to start a discussion here because I don't have the ability to make topics yet, but I think that the TSL needs a format change. I think that as is (single elimination), the tournament both goes by too quickly and doesn't allow for a large number of high profile games. Just take the NASL in comparison: In the group stages, everyone plays each other in a Bo3 at least once.
Now, I am not saying that we need an extremely long drawn out format. But a longer format has two advantages: 1) allows for more "high interest" games between popular players and 2) somewhat reduces randomness in that players don't get knocked out so easily (more matches gives a better chance that the better player will advance).
The format wasn't like this before, so probably the people in charge didn't like running a longer tournament. However, I think that a 32 player tournament of such high caliber such as the TSL should start with group stages. Personally, it just felt like TSL3 went by too fast (still loved it though), and that certain players that I like were eliminated really quickly (or not convincingly enough) really added to this effect.
In my opinion the heart of the swarm has the potential to ruin TSL 4 more than anything else. Its the only thing that can bring SC2 back to the shitty game it was a year ago.
That being said, I still have huge expectations on TSL4 and its something I look forward to!
On May 30 2011 10:44 pavement ist rad wrote: I wanted to start a discussion here because I don't have the ability to make topics yet, but I think that the TSL needs a format change. I think that as is (single elimination), the tournament both goes by too quickly and doesn't allow for a large number of high profile games. Just take the NASL in comparison: In the group stages, everyone plays each other in a Bo3 at least once.
Now, I am not saying that we need an extremely long drawn out format. But a longer format has two advantages: 1) allows for more "high interest" games between popular players and 2) somewhat reduces randomness in that players don't get knocked out so easily (more matches gives a better chance that the better player will advance).
The format wasn't like this before, so probably the people in charge didn't like running a longer tournament. However, I think that a 32 player tournament of such high caliber such as the TSL should start with group stages. Personally, it just felt like TSL3 went by too fast (still loved it though), and that certain players that I like were eliminated really quickly (or not convincingly enough) really added to this effect.
Im totally against a longer format. The current format is great and it only adds to the excitment to know that every game is an important game. I personally cant follow drawn out leagues like the NASL due to lack of time and lack of excitment when I know they can lose a set and be OK. To be frank, I think leagues are boing.
If HotS will be released shortly before TSL4 your prediction of more balanced gameplay will be wrong. HotS will bring a lot of new strategies and therefore wil unbalance the game again for a while.
on the other hand i DO think TSL4 is gonna be more awesome than ever
On May 30 2011 10:44 pavement ist rad wrote: I wanted to start a discussion here because I don't have the ability to make topics yet, but I think that the TSL needs a format change. I think that as is (single elimination), the tournament both goes by too quickly and doesn't allow for a large number of high profile games. Just take the NASL in comparison: In the group stages, everyone plays each other in a Bo3 at least once.
Now, I am not saying that we need an extremely long drawn out format. But a longer format has two advantages: 1) allows for more "high interest" games between popular players and 2) somewhat reduces randomness in that players don't get knocked out so easily (more matches gives a better chance that the better player will advance).
The format wasn't like this before, so probably the people in charge didn't like running a longer tournament. However, I think that a 32 player tournament of such high caliber such as the TSL should start with group stages. Personally, it just felt like TSL3 went by too fast (still loved it though), and that certain players that I like were eliminated really quickly (or not convincingly enough) really added to this effect.
I don't quite agree with the idea of single/double elimination tournaments just because of how quickly they end. And on the note of the TSL3, it hardly ended quickly, only ever running on weekends with a huge wait to find out what happens next.
I don't quite agree with the idea of single/double elimination tournaments because I feel like they don't really show who the skilled players are.
One player can have a lucky winning streak or unlucky losing streak or end up having to face really hard opponents in their bracket and have people's opinions on their skill affected by the outcome of so few games.
I perfer round robin formats because I think if a player faces everyone who their opponents face in the same group then it would give a better idea of matchup imbalances, winrates, who is skilled etc.
Look at Grubby and Artosis in the NASL for instance. Artosis has been doing really badly barely winning any games except in that series where he outplayed Grubby who was just doing some really risky, unorthodox play. At the same time, Grubby has had a few unlucky 1 - 2 losses where he's just been outright outplayed or was doing something at the wrong moment at the wrong time.
If they say..... lost first round of a single elimination tournament against a difficult player, we wouldn't think "Wow, he isn't skilled at all." We'd think "Damn, unlucky...."
On May 27 2011 21:37 Smackzilla wrote: I'll be really pissed if TSL4 takes anywhere near as long as HotS. HotS is probably two november's away, *at least*. Anyone who thinks it'll be earlier needs to read up on a company called "Blizzard".
I did. Here are my results concerning time between game release and first addon release: Starcraft: March 1998, Brood War November 1998 -> 8 months Diablo II June 2000, LoD June 2001 -> 12 months Warcraft III July 2002, TFT July 2003 -> 12 months WoW November 2004, The Burning Crusade January 2007 -> 26 months
On May 26 2011 02:57 Mithriel wrote: It all depends on the games played, I don't think we will ever forget the amazing games of naniwa vs thorzain for example. If the TSL 4 final will be a roflstomp it might leave a.bit of bitter taste.
This is not possible:
TSL 1: IefNaij vs. Draco, best of 5 Draco leading 2-0 and IefNaij then going on a 3 game winning streak to take the final with 3-2
TSL 2: Tyler (NonY) vs. Mondragon, best of 7 Mondragon winning the first 2 games convincingly (at least my memory atm is telling me it was convincingly) before NonY managed to pull himself together and going on a rampage closing the deal with a 4 game winning streak. 4-2 NonY.
TSL 3: ThorZain vs. NaNiwa, best of 7 ThorZain winning the first game before going on to lose the next 3. 3-1 NaNiwa where he has 3 games to close the deal. But yet again the man behind (in this case ThorZain) pulls of a miracle by winning the next 3 games and winning 4-3
All 3 TSL finals are worth watching over and over. So you see a TSL final can only be epic. It's destiny.
So today I decided to fill the gaping hole in my life that TSL3’s absense has givin me, by thinking about TSL4.
I realized as I dragged myself out of bed to do all the “real life” things people claim exist, that as incredably fantastic and mindblowingly awesome as TSL3 was, TSL4 will be even better. Here’s why:
1. The Hype
TSL3 was the most hyped up thing I’ve ever seen in my life and it was AWESOME for it. Seriously, even the men’s gold medal olympic hockey game in Victoria (about 60 minutes from Vancouver) weren’t as hyped as TSL 3 was. As the proud owner of an “Expand Your Horizons” ringtone (the TSL3 intro music), I can tell you that I really REALLY appreciated the hype. And it’s just gonna keep getting better. Next time around we won’t just have “and european you haven’t heard of X who played warcraft is gonna take on former brood-war player Y” We have a STARCRAFT 2 BACKSTORY. How well they did last time, and the player who defeated them is going to be far more relevant than it was for TSL 2 vs TSL 3. Many of us started watching e-sports after starcraft 2’s release, and now we have seen the awesomeness that it can be. Not only that, but with the MLG-GSL player exchange there’s a great chance of some epic rivalries popping up between some of the koreans and our own foriegners, which brings me to my next point.
2. The World will be Ready
The sweet taste of Thorzain’s victory over Fruitdealer gradually turned to ash in my mouth as Korean after Korean went down in the first round. Admittedly, they were all EPIC games (Nestea vs Goody and QXC vs Genius especially IMO), but one way or another it seemed that the Koreans were not prepared. Fortunately by the RO 16 MC was acutely aware of what the foriegners were capable of and pushed on to that glorious series against ThorZain. But MC and Boxer were the last of their kind by the Round of 8, all others having fallen early in the tournament and I'm sure that those who went quickly are hungry for their revenge, so the Koreans will be ready.
Meanwhile, you know what’s going on right now? China is hosting their first big SC2 tournament since Beta... and they’ve beat us. I now find myself cheering for MC against the red menace -jk, I <3 China- that has defeated all of the foreigners in the Gigabyte Starwars tournament. It seems that China too is on the rise, and with them will come new names and awesome stories.
With pros from China and Korea being more prepared, you can expect more fans to join in. Even though 70k fans watching the finals was pretty fricken sweet, can you IMAGINE if there had been a korean in the finals!? And soon the Chinese players will have a following too. Yes, as amazing as TSL 3 was, TSL 4 will be out of this world due to the ever growing fan-base.
3. The game will be more balanced OR it'll be more awesome
Have you watched PvP lately? How many archons were used in PvP a month ago? Not a heck of a lot. The times, they are a changing my friends, and by the time TSL4 rolls around hopefully every matchup is balanced and exciting. If it’s not quite balanced yet, then there’s an equally awesome reason for that: Bolding that because apparently I need to. Just saying that there is no downside tho, either it'll be more balanced, or it'll be new and exciting due to HoTS
4. (Maybe) Heart of The Swarm will be released
There’s a significant chance that TSL 4 will in fact be the first big SC2 HoTS tournament. Think about that for a second. It’s a long-shot, but timing wise it could happen. And it would be glorious! New units, strategies, and who knows what. Now, this is Blizzard we’re talking about, so who know’s when HoTS will come out but I’m just saying, if it’s a year off then the times could work out nicely.
5. It has huge shoes to fill
There’s no denying that TSL 3 was some of, if not unequivocally the BEST sc2 tournament play we’ve seen. But from the sounds of it, TSL is always like that. Perhaps its the open qualification process, perhaps its the prestige of being THE foriegner tournament. Probably some combination of the above, but no one can deny that TSL 3 was fantastic, players played their absolute best, and when times looked bleak called upon the gods themselves to give them the strength to succeed. (cough, seriously, Thorzain seemed like he had a touch of divinity to him in game 6 of the finals). TSL 4 is gonna have big shoes to fill, and I believe that it will indeed exceed even our wildest expectations.
I’m one of the guys who voted “maybe wait a bit” for TSL 4. As much as I want to watch it right this second I realize that given more time it can only be better and better.
Team Liquid FIGHTING!!!
Didn't even read your post, just wanted to say that you're username is amazing. You can call me...the dougler!
On May 26 2011 02:31 TheDougler wrote: 4. (Maybe) Heart of The Swarm will be released
I sure hope not! I don't want to wait that long!
I was once like you, about eleven years ago when a company named Blizzard announced a game called Warcraft Three and I put it on my christmas wish list...
Three years later I had developed a nervous twitch where I would scream in agony whenever somebody dared to mention the word "soon".
Lol, jk but... I wouldn't hold your breath for blizzard is all I'm saying. They make great games but they take their damn time. That being said, the last two wow expansions have been prompt and they certainly have the staff now to get things done so who knows?
EPT
