On August 10 2013 23:21 G3CKO wrote: What people still complain about that? Devs specifically stated that it's intended and they are not changing it. Also this isn't the first time Na'Vi used this in huge tournaments. They used the EXACT SAME combo in earlier TI's. Also it's more of the Chinese mentality of playing passive; Tongfu didn't try to engage in an obvious 5 vs 4 fight when pudge is all the way back in fountain.
Also I'm pretty sure fountain hooking worked in WC3 Dota but you needed a Wisp or KotL. Another note is the old send back impetus that instantly kills anything on the map. Fountain hooking is not a guaranteed kill like the send back impetus since the pudge hook can miss, and the team that tries it must fight 4 vs 5 if engaged on. Also there are more dumb "exploits" in this game like pooling Mercurial items, which is insanely powerful that just lets you do full team wipes.
/end rant
Lol this. I can't believe people are mad at that strategy. A team does something unique that no one else ever attempts in a competitive game, on the grandest stage, and people bitch about it. The strategy's not even remotely overpowered. Why not just enjoy the game instead of complaining : S.
Most of the problems I've seen expressed with it is that it's very low risk-high reward. It only took 1 fountain hook for navi to win and the way they were doing it was 100% luck. It was just blind double force staff hooks in the fog of war where they had a hunch someone was.(probably hit about 10% of the hooks attempted)
As you can see, it's easy to see why someone would get upset over a strategy that was 100% luck.
On August 10 2013 23:21 G3CKO wrote: What people still complain about that? Devs specifically stated that it's intended and they are not changing it. Also this isn't the first time Na'Vi used this in huge tournaments. They used the EXACT SAME combo in earlier TI's. Also it's more of the Chinese mentality of playing passive; Tongfu didn't try to engage in an obvious 5 vs 4 fight when pudge is all the way back in fountain.
Also I'm pretty sure fountain hooking worked in WC3 Dota but you needed a Wisp or KotL. Another note is the old send back impetus that instantly kills anything on the map. Fountain hooking is not a guaranteed kill like the send back impetus since the pudge hook can miss, and the team that tries it must fight 4 vs 5 if engaged on. Also there are more dumb "exploits" in this game like pooling Mercurial items, which is insanely powerful that just lets you do full team wipes.
/end rant
Lol this. I can't believe people are mad at that strategy. A team does something unique that no one else ever attempts in a competitive game, on the grandest stage, and people bitch about it. The strategy's not even remotely overpowered. Why not just enjoy the game instead of complaining : S.
Most of the problems I've seen expressed with it is that it's very low risk-high reward. It only took 1 fountain hook for navi to win and the way they were doing it was 100% luck. It was just blind double force staff hooks in the fog of war where they had a hunch someone was.(probably hit about 10% of the hooks attempted)
As you can see, it's easy to see why someone would get upset over a strategy that was 100% luck.
Tongfu never even tried to engage after a missed hook. Hook missed? Better farm some more as 5 and wait for the next one. Tongfu rarely shielded their heroes with the visage familiars and rubick only used telekinesis once against pudge who was about to hook. Tongfu reacted poorly to this strategy and they deserved to lose. There were a million and one ways Tonfu could have punished Navi for their failed fountain hooks, but they didnt punish anything and let xboct play catch up for like 15mins straight. The fact that this strategy is so rarely used on the big stage (and only by one team) should be proof enough that it is not OP, "100% luck" or "low risk-high reward". Fountain-hooking has been possible for years and has never been a reliable strategy (go figure). Tongfu gained a lead and then lost it by being scared shitless of a gimmick that they could have shut down with minimal investment. (let visage familiars shield important targets, get a euls or just cc the pudge when he force staffs right in your face)
On August 10 2013 23:21 G3CKO wrote: What people still complain about that? Devs specifically stated that it's intended and they are not changing it. Also this isn't the first time Na'Vi used this in huge tournaments. They used the EXACT SAME combo in earlier TI's. Also it's more of the Chinese mentality of playing passive; Tongfu didn't try to engage in an obvious 5 vs 4 fight when pudge is all the way back in fountain.
Also I'm pretty sure fountain hooking worked in WC3 Dota but you needed a Wisp or KotL. Another note is the old send back impetus that instantly kills anything on the map. Fountain hooking is not a guaranteed kill like the send back impetus since the pudge hook can miss, and the team that tries it must fight 4 vs 5 if engaged on. Also there are more dumb "exploits" in this game like pooling Mercurial items, which is insanely powerful that just lets you do full team wipes.
/end rant
Lol this. I can't believe people are mad at that strategy. A team does something unique that no one else ever attempts in a competitive game, on the grandest stage, and people bitch about it. The strategy's not even remotely overpowered. Why not just enjoy the game instead of complaining : S.
Most of the problems I've seen expressed with it is that it's very low risk-high reward. It only took 1 fountain hook for navi to win and the way they were doing it was 100% luck. It was just blind double force staff hooks in the fog of war where they had a hunch someone was.(probably hit about 10% of the hooks attempted)
As you can see, it's easy to see why someone would get upset over a strategy that was 100% luck.
You can't say it's low risk. Picking Pudge in itself is a big risk. If Pudge does not make a huge impact early on, you're pretty much playing a 4v5. A Pudge that isn't fed only offers a hook (which is a hard to hit), melee range magic damage, and melee range channeled disable. If you don't have Flesh Heap stacks and/or some decent items (for tankiness or mobility), you'll straight up die before you can dismember a worthwhile target.
On August 11 2013 14:19 Whole wrote: You can't say it's low risk. Picking Pudge in itself is a big risk. If Pudge does not make a huge impact early on, you're pretty much playing a 4v5. A Pudge that isn't fed only offers a hook (which is a hard to hit), melee range magic damage, and melee range channeled disable. If you don't have Flesh Heap stacks and/or some decent items (for tankiness or mobility), you'll straight up die before you can dismember a worthwhile target.
The point of the fountain hooks is that pudge literally just needs maxed hook. Then he can just attempt the fountain hook over and over again beause it's an instakill regardless of the level of farm. You don't have to dismember anyone when it's 4v5 because the gyro got hooked from 2 screens away with double force staff.
On August 11 2013 14:14 hooahah wrote:
low-risk high-reward? are you kidding me?
Compelling argument. I'll take that into account.
On August 11 2013 13:55 Scio wrote: Tonfu never even tried to engage after a missed hook. Hook missed? Better farm some more as 5 and wait for the next one. Tonfu rarely shielded their heroes with the visage familiars and rubick only used telekinesis once against pudge who was about to hook. Tonfu reacted poorly to this strategy and they deserved to lose. There were a million and one ways Tonfu could have punished Navi for their failed fountain hooks, but they didnt punish anything and let xboct play catch up for like 15mins straight. The fact that this strategy is so rarely used on the big stage (and only by one team) should be proof enough that it is not OP, "100% luck" or "low risk-high reward". Fountain-hooking has been possible for years and has never been a reliable strategy (go figure). Tongfu gained a lead and then lost it by being scared shitless of a gimmick that they could have shut down with minimal investment. (let visage familiars shield important targets, get a euls or just cc the pudge when he force staffs right in your face)
Ok, Tongfu tried to push and force a teamfight immediately after a failed fountain hook. Then all of a sudden the one downside to fountain hooking is nullified because the fountain is close. It was damn near impossible for tongfu to break high ground.
The fact it's not used is probably proof that it's complete luck. There's little skill involved and usually pro teams don't force themselves into singular win condition like that.
Familiars hardly block any space whatsoever and when the hooks are coming from effective 2 screens away, not even the best visage player could block. Telekinesis the pudge...? Once again, it's coming from 2 screens away out of the fog of war.
On August 11 2013 14:19 Whole wrote: You can't say it's low risk. Picking Pudge in itself is a big risk. If Pudge does not make a huge impact early on, you're pretty much playing a 4v5. A Pudge that isn't fed only offers a hook (which is a hard to hit), melee range magic damage, and melee range channeled disable. If you don't have Flesh Heap stacks and/or some decent items (for tankiness or mobility), you'll straight up die before you can dismember a worthwhile target.
The point of the fountain hooks is that pudge literally just needs maxed hook. Then he can just attempt the fountain hook over and over again beause it's an instakill regardless of the level of farm. You don't have to dismember anyone when it's 4v5 because the gyro got hooked from 2 screens away with double force staff.
You are giving up 2 heroes (Chen and Pudge) for a chance to kill a hero about every 30 seconds. And that chance is purely reliant on player skill (no its not luck). None of the hooks that worked were blind hooks. In fact no blind hook ever hit in that game. (maybe like one not 100% sure) Aside from fountain hooking there is nothing pudge was able to do.....normal hooks didnt kill anymore (examples are the dark seer and visage hooks). Pudge was a useless mid hero that didnt contribute aside from hooks, just picking him is a huge risk. And could you pls stop just making shit up
You don't have to dismember anyone when it's 4v5 because the gyro got hooked from 2 screens away with double force staff.
This did never happen. The aegis gyro got fountain hooked from about auto attack range without the use of any force staffs. In fact it was Tongfu who ran into Pudge and doomed the Chen (ignoring Pudge), Chen got his sendback off and Dendi took it from there. Yes fountain-hooks are not farm dependent, but you have to automatically sacrifice your mid hero just to be able to do it.
On August 11 2013 14:19 Whole wrote: You can't say it's low risk. Picking Pudge in itself is a big risk. If Pudge does not make a huge impact early on, you're pretty much playing a 4v5. A Pudge that isn't fed only offers a hook (which is a hard to hit), melee range magic damage, and melee range channeled disable. If you don't have Flesh Heap stacks and/or some decent items (for tankiness or mobility), you'll straight up die before you can dismember a worthwhile target.
The point of the fountain hooks is that pudge literally just needs maxed hook. Then he can just attempt the fountain hook over and over again beause it's an instakill regardless of the level of farm. You don't have to dismember anyone when it's 4v5 because the gyro got hooked from 2 screens away with double force staff.
On August 11 2013 13:55 Scio wrote: Tonfu never even tried to engage after a missed hook. Hook missed? Better farm some more as 5 and wait for the next one. Tonfu rarely shielded their heroes with the visage familiars and rubick only used telekinesis once against pudge who was about to hook. Tonfu reacted poorly to this strategy and they deserved to lose. There were a million and one ways Tonfu could have punished Navi for their failed fountain hooks, but they didnt punish anything and let xboct play catch up for like 15mins straight. The fact that this strategy is so rarely used on the big stage (and only by one team) should be proof enough that it is not OP, "100% luck" or "low risk-high reward". Fountain-hooking has been possible for years and has never been a reliable strategy (go figure). Tongfu gained a lead and then lost it by being scared shitless of a gimmick that they could have shut down with minimal investment. (let visage familiars shield important targets, get a euls or just cc the pudge when he force staffs right in your face)
Ok, Tongfu tried to push and force a teamfight immediately after a failed fountain hook. Then all of a sudden the one downside to fountain hooking is nullified because the fountain is close. It was damn near impossible for tongfu to break high ground.
The fact it's not used is probably proof that it's complete luck. There's little skill involved and usually pro teams don't force themselves into singular win condition like that.
Familiars hardly block any space whatsoever and when the hooks are coming from effective 2 screens away, not even the best visage player could block. Telekinesis the pudge...? Once again, it's coming from 2 screens away out of the fog of war.
Here is the game. Watch it and tell me where the blind fountain hooks and the 2 screen double forcestaff hooks are, ok? Also pls look at the farm Pudge has.
There's little skill involved
Little skill involved in landing Pudge hooks in pro games? ok.......
On August 11 2013 14:19 Whole wrote: You can't say it's low risk. Picking Pudge in itself is a big risk. If Pudge does not make a huge impact early on, you're pretty much playing a 4v5. A Pudge that isn't fed only offers a hook (which is a hard to hit), melee range magic damage, and melee range channeled disable. If you don't have Flesh Heap stacks and/or some decent items (for tankiness or mobility), you'll straight up die before you can dismember a worthwhile target.
The point of the fountain hooks is that pudge literally just needs maxed hook. Then he can just attempt the fountain hook over and over again beause it's an instakill regardless of the level of farm. You don't have to dismember anyone when it's 4v5 because the gyro got hooked from 2 screens away with double force staff.
On August 11 2013 14:14 hooahah wrote:
low-risk high-reward? are you kidding me?
Compelling argument. I'll take that into account.
On August 11 2013 13:55 Scio wrote: Tonfu never even tried to engage after a missed hook. Hook missed? Better farm some more as 5 and wait for the next one. Tonfu rarely shielded their heroes with the visage familiars and rubick only used telekinesis once against pudge who was about to hook. Tonfu reacted poorly to this strategy and they deserved to lose. There were a million and one ways Tonfu could have punished Navi for their failed fountain hooks, but they didnt punish anything and let xboct play catch up for like 15mins straight. The fact that this strategy is so rarely used on the big stage (and only by one team) should be proof enough that it is not OP, "100% luck" or "low risk-high reward". Fountain-hooking has been possible for years and has never been a reliable strategy (go figure). Tongfu gained a lead and then lost it by being scared shitless of a gimmick that they could have shut down with minimal investment. (let visage familiars shield important targets, get a euls or just cc the pudge when he force staffs right in your face)
Ok, Tongfu tried to push and force a teamfight immediately after a failed fountain hook. Then all of a sudden the one downside to fountain hooking is nullified because the fountain is close. It was damn near impossible for tongfu to break high ground.
The fact it's not used is probably proof that it's complete luck. There's little skill involved and usually pro teams don't force themselves into singular win condition like that.
Familiars hardly block any space whatsoever and when the hooks are coming from effective 2 screens away, not even the best visage player could block. Telekinesis the pudge...? Once again, it's coming from 2 screens away out of the fog of war.
Here is the game. Watch it and tell me where the blind fountain hooks and the 2 screen double forcestaff hooks are, ok? Also pls look at the farm Pudge has.
Little skill involved in landing Pudge hooks in pro games? ok.......
Well, since you fail to see the gigantic amount of luck in hitting these hooks. I'm just going to go with you're a blind navi fanboy. If tongfu were the ones that did this you'd be pitchforking all day. Pls tell me how this is "sacrificing chen" Pls realize it doesn't matter how much farm pudge has. Pls realize it's an instant kill no matter what Pls stop spamming pls. Pls go away and pls stop posting.
On August 11 2013 14:19 Whole wrote: You can't say it's low risk. Picking Pudge in itself is a big risk. If Pudge does not make a huge impact early on, you're pretty much playing a 4v5. A Pudge that isn't fed only offers a hook (which is a hard to hit), melee range magic damage, and melee range channeled disable. If you don't have Flesh Heap stacks and/or some decent items (for tankiness or mobility), you'll straight up die before you can dismember a worthwhile target.
The point of the fountain hooks is that pudge literally just needs maxed hook. Then he can just attempt the fountain hook over and over again beause it's an instakill regardless of the level of farm. You don't have to dismember anyone when it's 4v5 because the gyro got hooked from 2 screens away with double force staff.
On August 11 2013 14:14 hooahah wrote:
low-risk high-reward? are you kidding me?
Compelling argument. I'll take that into account.
On August 11 2013 13:55 Scio wrote: Tonfu never even tried to engage after a missed hook. Hook missed? Better farm some more as 5 and wait for the next one. Tonfu rarely shielded their heroes with the visage familiars and rubick only used telekinesis once against pudge who was about to hook. Tonfu reacted poorly to this strategy and they deserved to lose. There were a million and one ways Tonfu could have punished Navi for their failed fountain hooks, but they didnt punish anything and let xboct play catch up for like 15mins straight. The fact that this strategy is so rarely used on the big stage (and only by one team) should be proof enough that it is not OP, "100% luck" or "low risk-high reward". Fountain-hooking has been possible for years and has never been a reliable strategy (go figure). Tongfu gained a lead and then lost it by being scared shitless of a gimmick that they could have shut down with minimal investment. (let visage familiars shield important targets, get a euls or just cc the pudge when he force staffs right in your face)
Ok, Tongfu tried to push and force a teamfight immediately after a failed fountain hook. Then all of a sudden the one downside to fountain hooking is nullified because the fountain is close. It was damn near impossible for tongfu to break high ground.
The fact it's not used is probably proof that it's complete luck. There's little skill involved and usually pro teams don't force themselves into singular win condition like that.
Familiars hardly block any space whatsoever and when the hooks are coming from effective 2 screens away, not even the best visage player could block. Telekinesis the pudge...? Once again, it's coming from 2 screens away out of the fog of war.
Here is the game. Watch it and tell me where the blind fountain hooks and the 2 screen double forcestaff hooks are, ok? Also pls look at the farm Pudge has.
There's little skill involved
Little skill involved in landing Pudge hooks in pro games? ok.......
Well, since you fail to see the gigantic amount of luck in hitting these hooks. I'm just going to go with you're a blind navi fanboy. If tongfu were the ones that did this you'd be pitchforking all day. Pls go away and pls stop posting. Pls realize it doesn't matter how much farm pudge has. Pls realize it's an instant kill no matter what Pls stop spamming pls.
You seem kinda upset man. I tried to give you some reasonable arguments and try to convince you that the ability of instakilling any hero comes at a very high price (and is in no way reliable). All you are doing is making stuff up. Pls tell me where the blind hooks are? Where are the double force staff hooks? You just leave this debate by calling me a navi fanboy (which i am not as i am rooting for orange to eliminate them).
Edit: Just for you i watched through the hooks and there never was any usage of "double force staff" and only 1 hook you could maybe call a blind hook (the one on rubick at the radient ancients) but even that is a little bit of a stretch as they saw all of Tongfu moving right to the secret shop.
On August 11 2013 14:19 Whole wrote: You can't say it's low risk. Picking Pudge in itself is a big risk. If Pudge does not make a huge impact early on, you're pretty much playing a 4v5. A Pudge that isn't fed only offers a hook (which is a hard to hit), melee range magic damage, and melee range channeled disable. If you don't have Flesh Heap stacks and/or some decent items (for tankiness or mobility), you'll straight up die before you can dismember a worthwhile target.
The point of the fountain hooks is that pudge literally just needs maxed hook. Then he can just attempt the fountain hook over and over again beause it's an instakill regardless of the level of farm. You don't have to dismember anyone when it's 4v5 because the gyro got hooked from 2 screens away with double force staff.
On August 11 2013 14:14 hooahah wrote:
low-risk high-reward? are you kidding me?
Compelling argument. I'll take that into account.
On August 11 2013 13:55 Scio wrote: Tonfu never even tried to engage after a missed hook. Hook missed? Better farm some more as 5 and wait for the next one. Tonfu rarely shielded their heroes with the visage familiars and rubick only used telekinesis once against pudge who was about to hook. Tonfu reacted poorly to this strategy and they deserved to lose. There were a million and one ways Tonfu could have punished Navi for their failed fountain hooks, but they didnt punish anything and let xboct play catch up for like 15mins straight. The fact that this strategy is so rarely used on the big stage (and only by one team) should be proof enough that it is not OP, "100% luck" or "low risk-high reward". Fountain-hooking has been possible for years and has never been a reliable strategy (go figure). Tongfu gained a lead and then lost it by being scared shitless of a gimmick that they could have shut down with minimal investment. (let visage familiars shield important targets, get a euls or just cc the pudge when he force staffs right in your face)
Ok, Tongfu tried to push and force a teamfight immediately after a failed fountain hook. Then all of a sudden the one downside to fountain hooking is nullified because the fountain is close. It was damn near impossible for tongfu to break high ground.
The fact it's not used is probably proof that it's complete luck. There's little skill involved and usually pro teams don't force themselves into singular win condition like that.
Familiars hardly block any space whatsoever and when the hooks are coming from effective 2 screens away, not even the best visage player could block. Telekinesis the pudge...? Once again, it's coming from 2 screens away out of the fog of war.
Here is the game. Watch it and tell me where the blind fountain hooks and the 2 screen double forcestaff hooks are, ok? Also pls look at the farm Pudge has.
There's little skill involved
Little skill involved in landing Pudge hooks in pro games? ok.......
Well, since you fail to see the gigantic amount of luck in hitting these hooks. I'm just going to go with you're a blind navi fanboy. If tongfu were the ones that did this you'd be pitchforking all day. Pls go away and pls stop posting. Pls realize it doesn't matter how much farm pudge has. Pls realize it's an instant kill no matter what Pls stop spamming pls.
You seem kinda upset man. I tried to give you some reasonable arguments and try to convince you that the ability of instakilling any hero comes at a very high price (and is in no way reliable). All you are doing is making stuff up. Pls tell me where the blind hooks are? Where are the double force staff hooks? You just leave this debate by calling me a navi fanboy (which i am not as i am rooting for orange to eliminate them).
Edit: Just for you i watched through the hooks and there never was any usage of "double force staff" and only 1 hook you could maybe call a blind hook (the one on rubick at the radient ancients) but even that is a little bit of a stretch as they saw all of Tongfu moving right to the secret shop.
I have this admittedly awful habit of buying a vanguard on every hero.
Now a lot of people would tell me vanguard is the worst item in the game but I'm like "it gives you massive hp". In wc3 dota I remember I always rushed a vanguard every single time on Weaver because of the vanguard era. Remember back in b.net I would practically be invincible as long as I had it before 15 minutes. Now I have grown, I have the ability to last hit better and can get my vanguard faster than ever! But..it doesn't make me immortal like I remember it did a long time ago.
I can't stand people that start complaining before the game even start... We were going against an all carry team that had weaver drow kunkha spectre and juggernaut. We had pudge random chen morph (me) pa and leshrac. Should be an easy game right? No leshrac started complaining that we were too squishy and that weaver would kill us all... At first he was going to let PA alone top but i told him to support PA instead and let me solo the hard lane with morph expecting to take a hit for the team. To my surprise i ended up against spectre/juggernaut so the lane was going to be great for me, but no after 2 min and a few fed kills PA tped bot and started to mess with my last hits, while top continued to feed. Ok i understand, weaver+drow is a lot of harass, but PA can farm with dagger, and most of all DROW IS ONE OF THE EASIEST HERO TO GANK. All they needed to do was get tranquil boots and i would have snowballed but no better start insulting each other, mess with other lanes and they complain that we had NOT ENOUGH EARLY POWER and that we couldn't possibly win this game... against 5 carries.
On August 11 2013 18:45 Kuroeeah wrote: I have this admittedly awful habit of buying a vanguard on every hero.
Now a lot of people would tell me vanguard is the worst item in the game but I'm like "it gives you massive hp". In wc3 dota I remember I always rushed a vanguard every single time on Weaver because of the vanguard era. Remember back in b.net I would practically be invincible as long as I had it before 15 minutes. Now I have grown, I have the ability to last hit better and can get my vanguard faster than ever! But..it doesn't make me immortal like I remember it did a long time ago.
So is vanguard truly useless?
Have you considered buying a Mek instead of a Vanguard? 250 HP vs 250 HP Heal (and 95HP due to 5 Str) 6 HP regen vs 4 HP regen. Dmg Block vs 5 (+2) Armor. And Mek has the advantage to also work on your allies and has some attributes (+5 all). Downside of course is the manacost & that you might die before being able to use it.
I wouldnt say Vanguard is always useless, there might be situations where it's better (if someone else is building Mek, but hey we're talking pubs, where you at most get one dedicated supporter and he wont have the money to buy an early Mek, since he's busy buying all wards/dust/smokes/couriers alone). But buying it on "every hero" is probably bad
On August 11 2013 18:45 Kuroeeah wrote: I have this admittedly awful habit of buying a vanguard on every hero.
Now a lot of people would tell me vanguard is the worst item in the game but I'm like "it gives you massive hp". In wc3 dota I remember I always rushed a vanguard every single time on Weaver because of the vanguard era. Remember back in b.net I would practically be invincible as long as I had it before 15 minutes. Now I have grown, I have the ability to last hit better and can get my vanguard faster than ever! But..it doesn't make me immortal like I remember it did a long time ago.
So is vanguard truly useless?
Have you considered buying a Mek instead of a Vanguard? 250 HP vs 250 HP Heal (and 95HP due to 5 Str) 6 HP regen vs 4 HP regen. Dmg Block vs 5 (+2) Armor. And Mek has the advantage to also work on your allies and has some attributes (+5 all). Downside of course is the manacost & that you might die before being able to use it.
I wouldnt say Vanguard is always useless, there might be situations where it's better (if someone else is building Mek, but hey we're talking pubs, where you at most get one dedicated supporter and he wont have the money to buy an early Mek, since he's busy buying all wards/dust/smokes/couriers alone). But buying it on "every hero" is probably bad
I find that vanguard is a decent item on spectre, she doesn't really need that much damage anyway if you go for a desolate build, and it makes her really hard to kill.
On August 11 2013 18:45 Kuroeeah wrote: I have this admittedly awful habit of buying a vanguard on every hero.
Now a lot of people would tell me vanguard is the worst item in the game but I'm like "it gives you massive hp". In wc3 dota I remember I always rushed a vanguard every single time on Weaver because of the vanguard era. Remember back in b.net I would practically be invincible as long as I had it before 15 minutes. Now I have grown, I have the ability to last hit better and can get my vanguard faster than ever! But..it doesn't make me immortal like I remember it did a long time ago.
So is vanguard truly useless?
Have you considered buying a Mek instead of a Vanguard? 250 HP vs 250 HP Heal (and 95HP due to 5 Str) 6 HP regen vs 4 HP regen. Dmg Block vs 5 (+2) Armor. And Mek has the advantage to also work on your allies and has some attributes (+5 all). Downside of course is the manacost & that you might die before being able to use it.
I wouldnt say Vanguard is always useless, there might be situations where it's better (if someone else is building Mek, but hey we're talking pubs, where you at most get one dedicated supporter and he wont have the money to buy an early Mek, since he's busy buying all wards/dust/smokes/couriers alone). But buying it on "every hero" is probably bad
I find that vanguard is a decent item on spectre, she doesn't really need that much damage anyway if you go for a desolate build, and it makes her really hard to kill.
The vit booster could have been put towards a heart, and you can get regen/block from tranqs/pms if you need it. I'd rather get a diffusal with the money, though.
On August 10 2013 23:21 G3CKO wrote: What people still complain about that? Devs specifically stated that it's intended and they are not changing it. Also this isn't the first time Na'Vi used this in huge tournaments. They used the EXACT SAME combo in earlier TI's. Also it's more of the Chinese mentality of playing passive; Tongfu didn't try to engage in an obvious 5 vs 4 fight when pudge is all the way back in fountain.
Also I'm pretty sure fountain hooking worked in WC3 Dota but you needed a Wisp or KotL. Another note is the old send back impetus that instantly kills anything on the map. Fountain hooking is not a guaranteed kill like the send back impetus since the pudge hook can miss, and the team that tries it must fight 4 vs 5 if engaged on. Also there are more dumb "exploits" in this game like pooling Mercurial items, which is insanely powerful that just lets you do full team wipes.
/end rant
Lol this. I can't believe people are mad at that strategy. A team does something unique that no one else ever attempts in a competitive game, on the grandest stage, and people bitch about it. The strategy's not even remotely overpowered. Why not just enjoy the game instead of complaining : S.
Most of the problems I've seen expressed with it is that it's very low risk-high reward. It only took 1 fountain hook for navi to win and the way they were doing it was 100% luck. It was just blind double force staff hooks in the fog of war where they had a hunch someone was.(probably hit about 10% of the hooks attempted)
As you can see, it's easy to see why someone would get upset over a strategy that was 100% luck.
I play against this today we kill the 4 other guys before Pudge even manage to walk back to lane
Fucking Zeus. He starts by abandoning the game before creeps, then comes back and proceeds to buy 6 branches. Then he buys a headdress. And another. And yet another headdress.
On August 11 2013 18:45 Kuroeeah wrote: I have this admittedly awful habit of buying a vanguard on every hero.
Now a lot of people would tell me vanguard is the worst item in the game but I'm like "it gives you massive hp". In wc3 dota I remember I always rushed a vanguard every single time on Weaver because of the vanguard era. Remember back in b.net I would practically be invincible as long as I had it before 15 minutes. Now I have grown, I have the ability to last hit better and can get my vanguard faster than ever! But..it doesn't make me immortal like I remember it did a long time ago.
So is vanguard truly useless?
I think it's good if you want to dive towers in the early game with heroes like NS. Vanguard is usually compared with drums and mek. So if you are utility hero it's better to go for mek and if you are carry you go for drums if you want to be more tanky. Item is not bad but you need to have some plan how to use unlike mek which is considered to be the most important item if you get it early. Vanguard is a good choice if you don't need to care about your teammates and you want to do some crazy dives.
EPT
