EPTDota 2 QQ thread - Page 462
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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
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negon
212 Posts
All I can say is that the game didn't feel that way to me after 500 hours, granted, I still knew very little but I enjoyed the process of learning immensely and the fact that you can't master Dota in two weeks (hell, not even in two years) is probably the major factor that draws me - and a plenty of other, competitive spirited players - to it. Comparing Dota to Portal is just way too flawed, one is an incredibly simplistic (while admittedly built on a cool concept) little game for casuals, the other one is a heavily complex game with high skill ceiling offering tons of possibilities to work on. There is nothing wrong with enjoying either but applying principles of one on the other is just silly. Anyway let's not pollute this thread anymore please, shoot me a PM if you really need to talk about this. | ||
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Fredoq
Sweden206 Posts
GOD I hate him so much. Such a broken hero. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On April 19 2013 01:07 negon wrote: I don't feel the need to further discuss this here, especially since there is nothing to really discuss. All I can say is that the game didn't feel that way to me after 500 hours, granted, I still knew very little but I enjoyed the process of learning immensely and the fact that you can't master Dota in two weeks (hell, not even in two years) is probably the major factor that draws me - and a plenty of other, competitive spirited players - to it. Comparing Dota to Portal is just way too flawed, one is an incredibly simplistic (while admittedly built on a cool concept) little game for casuals, the other one is a heavily complex game with high skill ceiling offering tons of possibilities to work on. There is nothing wrong with enjoying either but applying principles of one on the other is just silly. Anyway let's not pollute this thread anymore please, shoot me a PM if you really need to talk about this. Portal could've been overly complex, just like Dota, if the designers of Portal had shown as little restraint as the designers of Dota On April 19 2013 01:00 Ryrmidon wrote: LOL you're bad at dota and you have a hard time understanding it, clearly a flaw with game design right? And like I said, no reason to get into it, because it would only degrade into flaming.. yes, dota's over-complexity and bad pub dynamics is caused by its bad game design. And that's all I have to say/QQ about that... | ||
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Prophanity
United States165 Posts
QQ: I can never understand people who don't call miss, call out when they are back, discuss their gank attempt before doing it, or those that just simply don't communicate at all. This is a team game and yet people act as though each lane is subdivided into a series of 1v1s. Mind readers, all of us! | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8278 Posts
On April 19 2013 01:32 Laserist wrote: You should follow minimap for misses. If you die to a gank, your mm awareness is not that good. Not the one doesn't call miss. But it is relaxing to blame others, i admit. Its easier for whoever is in the original lane to know if someone is missing than whoever is desperately competing for lasthits on the other side of the map. Saying "you don't have map awareness if they didn't call ss" is simplifying it way too much. Sometimes its completely normal to only spot your opponent for seconds at most while he's spamming spells to gain some lasthits on an otherwise lost lane (kotl and DS for instance). Unless you're constantly looking at the lane (Which is hard if you're competing for lathits and kills in your own), you can't possibly know if there haven't been any activity down there lately. I'm really sick of people saying "have map awareness bro" when they fail to call miss, as if thats easier than typing 2 letters into the chat or pressing "y" on the keyboard. If you don't call ss and someone dies off it, you failed. Your opponent might have tricked you, or simply vanishes so fast that you didn't spot it, but its still on you, not the person who dies. | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
On April 19 2013 00:38 Quotidian wrote: "very clear" is considered "big words" to you? For anyone who has played portal/portal2 with commentary on - just look at how much stuff Valve cut/altered because it was confusing to new players.. now contrast that to the new player experience for Dota2. I'm calling the people who made Dota amateurs, because they clearly, demonstrably were. "Unless you have played this game on a professional level you're not in a position to criticise it. Simple." What a silly thing to say. Of course I can criticize it, based on my experience. If a game still comes off as obtuse and opaque after 500 or more hours of playing it, it is obviously too complex for its own good. The fact that the game is supposed to be played at the pro level and only really works there, but completely and utterly falls apart at the pub level is another gigantic problem with the game. for a second there I read that as "professional portal" and was throughly confused anyway, just because a game is complex and hard to get into doesn't mean that it's badly designed. It's funny that you bring up Portal 2 since that game has a truckload of problems - Valve were so afraid of alienating new players (god knows why, pretty simple concept & already an established license) that they, for all intents and purposes, neutered the player. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8278 Posts
On April 19 2013 02:04 hooahah wrote: for a second there I read that as "professional portal" and was throughly confused anyway, just because a game is complex and hard to get into doesn't mean that it's badly designed. It's funny that you bring up Portal 2 since that game has a truckload of problems - Valve were so afraid of alienating new players (god knows why, pretty simple concept & already an established license) that they, for all intents and purposes, neutered the player. The problem with portal isn't the mechanics, but the level design. It can be really hard for a level designer to know exactly how difficult his puzzles really are. And with the attention span most kids have these days, having someone stuck on a puzzle for more than 5 minutes means they'll get bored and quit playing. Unlike dota 2, where you are always doing something, even if you're in trouble. There's not 5 minutes of staring at a wall moment. Thats why you'll keep the attention span even if the game is incredibly complex, as well as make it better for esports and competitive play. | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
On April 19 2013 01:32 Laserist wrote: You should follow minimap for misses. If you die to a gank, your mm awareness is not that good. Not the one doesn't call miss. But it is relaxing to blame others, i admit. I don't get this attitude. Dota is a team game. It's in your interest to help your teammates. If your ss call can help save a teammate then...why the fuck would you not do it. Not only that, but you then deflect the blame to him, saying that he should have watched the map, when in fact the map isn't a 100% way to know if someone is ss or not. The player in the other lane could just be healing, in high ground vision, gone to check a rune or what the fuck ever. in short, call the fucking SS. Communication is key in a team game, do it. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On April 19 2013 01:47 Excludos wrote: Its easier for whoever is in the original lane to know if someone is missing than whoever is desperately competing for lasthits on the other side of the map. Saying "you don't have map awareness if they didn't call ss" is simplifying it way too much. Sometimes its completely normal to only spot your opponent for seconds at most while he's spamming spells to gain some lasthits on an otherwise lost lane (kotl and DS for instance). Unless you're constantly looking at the lane (Which is hard if you're competing for lathits and kills in your own), you can't possibly know if there haven't been any activity down there lately. I'm really sick of people saying "have map awareness bro" when they fail to call miss, as if thats easier than typing 2 letters into the chat or pressing "y" on the keyboard. If you don't call ss and someone dies off it, you failed. Your opponent might have tricked you, or simply vanishes so fast that you didn't spot it, but its still on you, not the person who dies. Meh, I have absolutely no sympathy for people who refuse to buy wards and end up dying from a lane rotation. If none of the two supports bother to even ward a rune then they''ve failed harder and are just as responsible, if not more, IMO. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8278 Posts
On April 19 2013 02:13 TheSubtleArt wrote: Meh, I have absolutely no sympathy for people who refuse to buy wards and end up dying from a lane rotation. If none of the two supports bother to even ward a rune then they''ve failed harder and are just as responsible, if not more, IMO. Not warding is shit, I agree, but also not what I was talking about. No kind of map awareness will help you without wards. Also, even with wards, you can't spot a slark tp'ing to the tower and jumping on you, or a pudge grabbing a invis rune 2 min beforehand. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On April 19 2013 00:35 Existential wrote: I qq to my team whenever I have to lane against KotL. Does that count? Yes  | ||
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Thienan567
United States670 Posts
 Jumped into solo queue wanting to play some Morphling...4stack from god knows where, all pick carries, had to buy courier and go solo against Treant Protector. Are you fucking kidding me here? And of course one of them picks lifestealer and goes into our jungle while the other picks furion and goes into enemy jungle. How the fuck? | ||
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Excludos
Norway8278 Posts
On April 19 2013 03:07 Thienan567 wrote: Why are 4 stacks always so bad. Jumped into solo queue wanting to play some Morphling...4stack from god knows where, all pick carries, had to buy courier and go solo against Treant Protector. Are you fucking kidding me here? And of course one of them picks lifestealer and goes into our jungle while the other picks furion and goes into enemy jungle. How the fuck? When 4 people stack togheter, the game pits them against much more difficult opponents thinking they will have an advantage. Sometimes a 4 player stack can communicate really well, but most of the time they're just 4 buddies with bad individual skills, no tactics, without any knowledge of dota basics, and without any form of communication whatsoever. 4 player stacks almost always sucks >.< | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
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Nisyax
Netherlands756 Posts
Early good farm: check Early Battlefury: check Early 5-0: check 500+ last hits: check Victory: NOPE Goddamn idiot team kept getting picked off so they were always pushing 5v3 while I had to deal with every stun/silence/axe shit in game | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 19 2013 03:22 deconduo wrote: Actually I queue as a 4-stack often enough and our problem is that our 5th is always terrible. We have to let them pick first because 9/10 they pick a carry regardless of the team comp. We are then invariably stuck tri-laning (or babysit+jungle) with a carry that can't last hit, while hoping we win mid and our offlaner does reasonably well. You could just double roam. Honestly, the effectiveness of trilaning isn't good enough to be worth it if your carry can't control the lane. Better to just get kills in the other 2 lanes. | ||
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MugenXBanksy
United States479 Posts
On April 19 2013 00:38 Quotidian wrote: "very clear" is considered "big words" to you? For anyone who has played portal/portal2 with commentary on - just look at how much stuff Valve cut/altered because it was confusing to new players.. now contrast that to the new player experience for Dota2. I'm calling the people who made Dota amateurs, because they clearly, demonstrably were. "Unless you have played this game on a professional level you're not in a position to criticise it. Simple." What a silly thing to say. Of course I can criticize it, based on my experience. If a game still comes off as obtuse and opaque after 500 or more hours of playing it, it is obviously too complex for its own good. The fact that the game is supposed to be played at the pro level and only really works there, but completely and utterly falls apart at the pub level is another gigantic problem with the game. Soo your telling me that a game that is 10+ years old and is basically getting a graphic over haul with alot of its old ways still intact minus a couple things here and there and has a has client that isn't just a custom map in WC3. Has a professional scene. Sure its abit of a daunting game if you've never played it before or a rts in your life. But if you've done either those you shouldn't have these problems. I am around that (500 hour/ ~600ish matchs) mark and I feel a definite difference from when I started and you should to if not in playing with a team but some for of individual skill. I was terrified to play heros like syllah bear when I started but now I love to play him. If the game is soo hard you should a. Not play a fucking skill based competitive game that requires you to fucking communicate to other people. (FYI i know that lots of people in pubs don't listen to shit and its detrimental to the game/match but maybe you should you know find some friends or dedicated partners to 5 stack with to work on shit) b. just play leauge of legends (your really stepping down a teir though doing that and will further spiral your rage out of control.) It's easier to snowball out of now where cause riot literally doens't balance the game at all. c. just don't play competitive games it obvoiusly creates abnormal amount of stress from your ragey post. Yeah there are noob asses who will try to tell your they know shit but they don't. Socrates once when to a olive farmer out on a hill who asked him about oliver farming and he told Socrates all he know about olive farming and then after words Socrates asked the farmer "soo what do you know about fishing" and the farmer replied I know soo much about fishing I could triple those fishers amount they caught. The same story happens when Socrates asked the fishers about fishing and then about olive farming and they talked out their asses about knowing all that shit about olive farming. And sure if you know one thing really well doesn't mean you know fucking everything else and should behave in a such authoritative manner man. | ||
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Ryrmidon
Canada371 Posts
On April 19 2013 01:28 Quotidian wrote: Portal could've been overly complex, just like Dota, if the designers of Portal had shown as little restraint as the designers of Dota And like I said, no reason to get into it, because it would only degrade into flaming.. yes, dota's over-complexity and bad pub dynamics is caused by its bad game design. And that's all I have to say/QQ about that... I'm not flaming. "I think Dota's design sucks because I find the game really hard" is literally what ur saying. You won't actually elaborate on how this game design causes over-complexity other than saying it does tho, so w/e. As for pub dynamics, I'm assuming you just mean the fact that the game requires a team has supports who actually support... properly... which no1 in a pub game ever wants to do it seems lol. | ||
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