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The Ultimate Headphone/Audio Thread. Seriously - Page 18

Forum Index > Tech Support
Post a Reply
Prev 1 16 17 18 19 20 47 Next All
Rollin
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia1552 Posts
December 13 2012 05:18 GMT
#341
On December 12 2012 02:39 DERPDERP wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2012 00:48 Rollin wrote:
On December 12 2012 00:42 iloveav wrote:
So, For gaming at home, and in a cold country, PC 360.
For music, hot country and home use only (and gaming still good, jsut a bit less) 598.

Why would you suggest closed headphones for gaming, when they're worse for literally the only gaming application you need above mediocre sound for: positional audio for fps games.

I am quite curious.


I also am quite curious how closed or not closed headphones have anything to do with this "positional audio" you speak of

Yer talking out of yer ass moit

Um, the only games that need any sort of fidelity are first person shooters, so you can hear where people are relative to you, where you want low amounts of bass, and as wide a soundstage as possible. Closed cans have reverb, generally somewhat muddier or less clear sound distinction, and a drastically smaller soundstage.

If you don't know what about a subject matter you're free to educate yourself. If you are just trolling, fuck off.
Throw off those chains of reason, and your prison disappears. | Check your posting frequency timeline: http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/post_activity_img.php
DJFaqU
Profile Joined May 2011
466 Posts
December 13 2012 07:18 GMT
#342
Have to agree with DERPDERP on this one.
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-13 15:14:00
December 13 2012 07:57 GMT
#343
More closed headphones tend to have wonky dips in frequency and phase response, issues with stored resonances. Those aren't conducive to good sound quality, and they're not going to help for localizing things either. But are they a problem?

+ Show Spoiler [spoilered the rest] +
Properly, you should look at many headphones if you want to make any type of sweeping statement like I am, but just for illustration here are the phase responses (I didn't cherry-pick, I swear) for one closed and one (semi-)open headphone:

+ Show Spoiler [graphs] +
[image loading]


[image loading]

Beyerdynamic DT 770 (closed, top), DT 880 (open, bottom) — phase response is the top chart in each, from here

A very sharp change in phase in the treble like that is maybe audibly an issue, could affect sense of imaging. This means that certain sounds containing different frequencies are smeared in time. Note that you see there roughly a phase difference of about 120 degrees (2/3 pi radians) over the span of about 500 Hz (1000pi radians / s), at around the 4 kHz mark. So a group delay around there is maybe about 2/3 pi / 1000pi = 0.00067 seconds = 0.67 ms. Maybe an issue? Granted, wikipedia cites an old paper from '78 saying that group delay under about 1.5 ms in that frequency range is under the threshold of audibility. *shrug* Maybe it's not the phase response that's the issue. Maybe just the frequency magnitude issues, or just the air being sealed feels wrong, or...?

Anecdotally a large number of people who have tried both seem to say they hear positioning better with open headphones. That said, I'd be the first to warn against "common knowledge" and anecdotes with regards to audio, which are often dead wrong.

I'm sleepy so somebody correct me if I goofed somewhere.
Rollin
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia1552 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-13 08:24:47
December 13 2012 08:16 GMT
#344
Closed headphones sacrifice soundstage and clarity for isolation. Both soundstage and clarity (as well as lower levels of bass) are required for accurate audio positioning in fps games.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/596642/open-vs-closed-headphones
http://headphones.com.au/blog/open-vs-closed-headphones
http://www.head-fi.org/t/424375/difference-between-closed-and-open-headphone
http://headphonescout.com/best-gaming-headsets/
http://lifehacker.com/5549255/helpful-tips-for-deciding-between-open-and-closed-headphones
http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/full-size-headphones-ct-3.html

As it clearly states in like half those links, soundstage and clarity are the most important things for competitive (fps only) gaming audio, and as all of them state, the open cans surpass closed in both regards. Posting out of ignorance is unacceptable. If you need more links I can find more with the power of google for you.

E: myrm this comment obviously isn't directed at you (the below is now though)

And it's not that the frequency response is bad per say, although closed headphones tend to overemphasise bass, which is unhelpful in most shooters with there already being far too much crap spewed out at those frequencies. Primarily the issue is that the sounds are reflected back more, giving less clarity, and resulting in a perceived lack of depth, or "soundstage". I'm sure you know this though.

I'm not sure of anywhere that has a scienctific way of measuring perceived soundstage, nor have I see any reviews that scientifically measure reverb ^.^
Throw off those chains of reason, and your prison disappears. | Check your posting frequency timeline: http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/post_activity_img.php
HolyExlxF
Profile Joined March 2011
United States256 Posts
December 13 2012 10:04 GMT
#345
So, I currently have some Audiotechnica ATH-M40fs and love them. However, after about two and a half years, the pleather cuffs are starting to rip and I've decided to use this as a weak excuse to upgrade (instead of superglueing the cuffs back ).

Budget is around $200
Looking for an open set
I really love the flatness of the spectrum provided by the M40fs (eg. no colored bass, treble, or mid range) and I would really like another set that has this same response.

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
zestzorb
Profile Joined August 2010
Thailand776 Posts
December 13 2012 13:30 GMT
#346
On December 13 2012 13:45 XenOmega wrote:
I can acquire Sennheiser HD650 (almost new) for 380$ (instead of 495$ new).
Some mixed review about them. Mainly looking for something that can reproduce piano and that can be used on my computer

Am I overpaying for this? I'm seeing alot of people talking about AMP + other sound system. I have none and right now have no intention of getting any. I just want to use for personal use (computer, game, music, ipod)

HD650 have great value/performance even at 495$ retail price, but for the headphones to perform their best you will need a clean sound system. They can sound bad when plugged straight to the computer as there are a lot of electrical noises.
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-13 15:14:29
December 13 2012 14:02 GMT
#347
+ Show Spoiler [closed headphones] +
On December 13 2012 17:16 Rollin wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Closed headphones sacrifice soundstage and clarity for isolation. Both soundstage and clarity (as well as lower levels of bass) are required for accurate audio positioning in fps games.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/596642/open-vs-closed-headphones
http://headphones.com.au/blog/open-vs-closed-headphones
http://www.head-fi.org/t/424375/difference-between-closed-and-open-headphone
http://headphonescout.com/best-gaming-headsets/
http://lifehacker.com/5549255/helpful-tips-for-deciding-between-open-and-closed-headphones
http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/full-size-headphones-ct-3.html

As it clearly states in like half those links, soundstage and clarity are the most important things for competitive (fps only) gaming audio, and as all of them state, the open cans surpass closed in both regards. Posting out of ignorance is unacceptable. If you need more links I can find more with the power of google for you.

E: myrm this comment obviously isn't directed at you (the below is now though)

And it's not that the frequency response is bad per say, although closed headphones tend to overemphasise bass, which is unhelpful in most shooters with there already being far too much crap spewed out at those frequencies. Primarily the issue is that the sounds are reflected back more, giving less clarity, and resulting in a perceived lack of depth, or "soundstage". I'm sure you know this though.

I'm not sure of anywhere that has a scienctific way of measuring perceived soundstage, nor have I see any reviews that scientifically measure reverb ^.^


Reverb, if it exists, should be evidenced in cumulative spectral decay (CSD) aka waterfall plots. That is, input a brief impulse (which contains all frequencies evenly) and graph the FFTs of what happens next. That shows you the magnitude of each frequency as it changes over time—hopefully to zero, and quickly, unless there are some kind of nonlinear feature like resonance at a particular frequency. In theory these should be shorter with higher electrical damping factor. Closed headphones often have more issues here, but many open cans do as well. That said, generally the decay for most headphones is relatively fast—over in 3-5ms or so down to 30-40 dB below, at least outside the bass. e.g. see here, here, here (note that the latter two sources do more smoothing than the first; some could argue procedural inaccuracies with all their setups)

So maybe that's a bigger deal than the phase issues.

Certainly one of the largest effects should come from elevated bass masking other frequencies.

Clarity mostly comes from an even mids / treble frequency response, mostly, so no unnatural dips or especially spikes that mask other frequencies. Maybe other factors too? It's hard to say for sure what corresponds to what people perceive, especially because perception is such a moving target.
Ckalvin
Profile Joined February 2012
Australia150 Posts
December 13 2012 15:11 GMT
#348
Myrmidon please just refrain. I created this thread as a ways of helping the general team liquid public get a better idea of what headphones are for them not to discuss "cumulative spectral decay (CSD) aka waterfall plots."

Stay calm and split drones. I'M NESTEAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I'M NESTEAAAAAAAAAAAA
DERPDERP
Profile Joined October 2010
Kyrgyzstan189 Posts
December 13 2012 15:14 GMT
#349
On December 13 2012 14:18 Rollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2012 02:39 DERPDERP wrote:
On December 12 2012 00:48 Rollin wrote:
On December 12 2012 00:42 iloveav wrote:
So, For gaming at home, and in a cold country, PC 360.
For music, hot country and home use only (and gaming still good, jsut a bit less) 598.

Why would you suggest closed headphones for gaming, when they're worse for literally the only gaming application you need above mediocre sound for: positional audio for fps games.

I am quite curious.


I also am quite curious how closed or not closed headphones have anything to do with this "positional audio" you speak of

Yer talking out of yer ass moit

Um, the only games that need any sort of fidelity are first person shooters, so you can hear where people are relative to you, where you want low amounts of bass, and as wide a soundstage as possible. Closed cans have reverb, generally somewhat muddier or less clear sound distinction, and a drastically smaller soundstage.

If you don't know what about a subject matter you're free to educate yourself. If you are just trolling, fuck off.


You got to be kidding me right, we're talking FPS games here, all you need is shitty headphones like fatal!ties and youre fine. Open and closed headphones have virtually no differences in games apart from the fact that closed ones cancel the noise coming from outside, stop acting like a fucking elitist

Have a nice day

PS youre a fucking joke

User was temp banned for this post.
8)
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
December 13 2012 15:17 GMT
#350
On December 14 2012 00:11 Ckalvin wrote:
Myrmidon please just refrain. I created this thread as a ways of helping the general team liquid public get a better idea of what headphones are for them not to discuss "cumulative spectral decay (CSD) aka waterfall plots."

The idea is that a less superficial understanding on the processes involved leads to more informed buying choices, recommendations? Less being duped by hype and word of mouth? But if you disagree, you started the thread; I spoilered out the text to limit space.
MajuGarzett
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada635 Posts
December 14 2012 08:29 GMT
#351
I'm looking for a pair of headphones under $60. I'm thinking of getting Sennheiser HD201 or Samson CH70. Does anyone know which is better?
HolyExlxF
Profile Joined March 2011
United States256 Posts
December 14 2012 09:43 GMT
#352
On December 14 2012 17:29 MajuGarzett wrote:
I'm looking for a pair of headphones under $60. I'm thinking of getting Sennheiser HD201 or Samson CH70. Does anyone know which is better?


Get some ATH-M40fs. Same price range, vastly superior sound. You could also opt for the D40s if you're a bass head.
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
iokke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1179 Posts
December 21 2012 19:23 GMT
#353
http://www.amazon.com/Beyerdynamic-MMX-300-Premium-Microphone/dp/B001BYMZ5W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356117483&sr=8-1&keywords=mmx300

MMX 300 going for about $280 on amazon, I bought one and really enjoy it, pretty good gaming headset and the price is lowest i've seen so figured I'd mention it for others
Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie the f*** down. rerereredit.. I never get it right the 1st time
LiquidFahq
Profile Joined January 2011
United States34 Posts
December 22 2012 20:13 GMT
#354
Noise canceling earphones for < 100USD for listening to music without hearing all the loud noises but still having great sound quality.
"Sometimes you look like a genuis and sometimes you lose to HongUnPrime"-EG_Idra
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
December 22 2012 20:19 GMT
#355
On December 23 2012 05:13 LiquidFahq wrote:
Noise canceling earphones for < 100USD for listening to music without hearing all the loud noises but still having great sound quality.

You read the OP, and you want active noise canceling? Or passive?

Earphones meaning something that sticks into the ear canal, or what?
LiquidFahq
Profile Joined January 2011
United States34 Posts
December 22 2012 20:27 GMT
#356
Idk active or passive are fine I'd just like a nice pair of iem earphones not headphones, as in they go into my ear canal not around my ear.
"Sometimes you look like a genuis and sometimes you lose to HongUnPrime"-EG_Idra
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 20:31:58
December 22 2012 20:29 GMT
#357
For max attenuation, Etymotic MC3. As always, tastes vary and some people wouldn't like those for music. Or sticking into their ears. Hard to say more without knowing exactly what you're looking for, and maybe you don't even know that perfectly either.

There are a lot of good options these days for IEMs with decent isolation in that price range. In general, I wouldn't recommend head-fi as a source of information, but this is a useful starting point:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/478568/multi-iem-review-267-iems-compared-fitear-to-go-334-added-12-16-12
RiSkysc2
Profile Joined September 2011
696 Posts
December 22 2012 21:28 GMT
#358
just got my sennheiser HD 598's and they're amazing really clear quality while still being very very comfortable.
Rollin
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia1552 Posts
December 22 2012 23:34 GMT
#359
On December 23 2012 06:28 RiSkyToss wrote:
just got my sennheiser HD 598's and they're amazing really clear quality while still being very very comfortable.

What did you upgrade from, I'm curious.
Throw off those chains of reason, and your prison disappears. | Check your posting frequency timeline: http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/post_activity_img.php
IPS.Blue
Profile Joined January 2004
Germany309 Posts
December 23 2012 19:01 GMT
#360
On December 13 2012 17:16 Rollin wrote:
As it clearly states in like half those links, soundstage and clarity are the most important things for competitive (fps only) gaming audio, and as all of them state, the open cans surpass closed in both regards.

Open headphones might be nice at home, but when you are at a lan ... And if you're only used to open headphones and then have to play with closed ones at a lan, you have to readjust ...
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